Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Harvey » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:47 pm

drstrangelove » Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:01 am wrote:There's a problem with the current debate surrounding vaccine passports. Beyond opposition to them being painted with a broad brush of the lowest common denominator, namely far-right partisanship, there is an issue with how the debate itself is being framed.

The goal of propaganda, in which we all partake, is not to change other people's views, but change the view they have of their views.

The distinction here is between:
1) An object view, which is a placeholder in the form of name.
2) A kernel view, which is amorphous and malleable.

Generally speaking, people have object views, not kernel ones. They have a view, an object, which is sacred and so must be defended. But they don't know why it is sacred, just that it is. You could say they believe "In the name of something" as opposed to that something. So the attack is never made against the name of something, for instance, Democracy, but against what the something is.

The current Vaccine passport propaganda is just this. The talking points which have been disseminated to useful idiots are:
- "We've always mandated vaccination in children"
- "We've always had to get a vaccine passport for yellow fever countries"
- "We've always kept records of vaccination"
- "We've always had to sacrifice freedoms for the good of society"

Ignoring the specific instances of false equivalencies, what this really is' is a broader strategy of focusing the debate on conflation as opposed to distinction. The conflation of two kernel views of two opposite object views. Or the conflation of autocratic kernel views with the object view of liberty.

This focuses debate on the kernel view of liberty. Which insures this is where the fight takes place, in the form of debate over what liberty is. This is bad because it engages conflation.

This conflation can be ignored, and the debate refocused on distinction, simply by asking people what their view of totalitarianism is, or what their view of autocracy is. This will force them to engage with the object view that they oppose, and which is attacking the object view of liberty.

This flips the nature of the debate from, 'what is liberty', to 'what is autocracy'. This is a very important distinction. As the trap most people fall into fighting against this, is effectively telling other people that their views of liberty are totalitarian. This is trying to make someone change their view. Which doesn't work, because their views are sacred and they don't know why.

But, by changing the kernel view of liberty, they inversely must modify their kernel view of autocracy, as if they don't they will start to short circuit when they try to explain their views. And since autocracy is in opposition to peoples view of liberty, and people don't like to change their views, the focus needs to be on what autocracy is, not liberty.

To refocus the debate is to not oppose peoples views, but to ask questions circumventing them, and as innocently as possible:
"but, isn't that kind of like, totalitarian?"
- the response is "No" followed by an attempt to conflate the debate around liberty
"oh ok, but if that isn't totalitarian, what is totalitarianism?"
- their response must be an attempt to either define or redefine what totalitarianism is, which refocuses the discussion from liberty to totalitarianism. now it is good to move from a discussion to a debate, because you've flipped the object view in question from liberty to autocracy.

Don't debate liberty, debate autocracy. Do this through a discussion about liberty that segues into a debate about autocracy.


I missed this. Excellent, it's a good argument and very well made. Worth developing in a popular form for maximum legibility.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4200
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:27 pm

mentalgongfu2 » 04 Aug 2021 09:27 wrote:The best thing about COVID-19/coronavirus thread on RI is I don't even have to go to r/thatHappened to get my disinfo anymore. Poster A asks someone to cite where they are wrong; while poster B composes response, poster A then posts 30 excerpts/screenshots/links over X pages of the same exact stuff to divert from original criticisms. Rinse repeat. By the time poster B can muster a response, Poster A thru G have swamped the thread with so much crap it's impossible to digest let alone rebut if necessary unless one's entire life is this thread. Hence why there are just a few people other than the handful of Wise Men even left attempting to participate.

Nevertheless,

TALLAHASSEE — The head of Florida’s largest hospital association warned that the skyrocketing number of Covid hospitalizations is unlike anything the state has seen before — even as Gov. Ron DeSantis downplays the spike.

The Florida Hospital Association on Monday reported 10,389 Covid-19 hospitalizations, the most statewide during any point in the pandemic. This follows Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reporting over the weekend that the state had more than 21,000 new coronavirus infections on Friday. It was the highest one-day total for Florida, which now makes up roughly one and five new cases nationally.

About 95 percent of those hospitalized are unvaccinated, and Mary Mayhew, the president and CEO of the Florida Hospital Association, said the Delta variant that is sweeping through Florida is infecting young and unvaccinated people and is much different than the previous strain.

“We have to convince 25-year-olds, 30-year-olds that this is now life threatening for them,” Mayhew said during an interview on Morning Joe. “That is not what they saw and what we experienced last year.”


As Florida’s coronavirus infections continue to soar, public health officials and local elected leaders have pressed the DeSantis administration to take more drastic steps to get the virus under control. DeSantis, however, has maintained a strict “no-mandate” approach to the virus, including touting an executive order last week that prohibits school districts from requiring masks in K-12 facilities. He also vowed to fight any cities or municipalities that try to institute Covid restrictions, including mask mandates or lockdowns.


LOL

https://covidaction.maps.arcgis.com/app ... 03107563ba

Supposedly, there were 22,728 positive COVID-19 tests yesterday in Florida and 63 deaths. That's less than 3 deaths per 1,000 cases. How many of these deaths were among the unvaccinated people less than 30 for whom COVID-19 is now supposedly life threatening?

And I love the totally unsourced statistic that "About 95 percent of those hospitalized are unvaccinated." Based on what data? Talk about the overconfidence effect! I'm 99% sure that this statistic is total bullshit.
Last edited by stickdog99 on Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stickdog99
 
Posts: 6562
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby conniption » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:28 pm

Found this story linked in the comment section of the latest off-guardian article: https://off-guardian.org/2021/08/04/wat ... -pandemic/


Freedom Fighter Court VICTORY! Ends Masking, Shots, Quarantine in Alberta!
Stew Peters Show Published August 3, 2021

Watch here: https://rumble.com/vkorz0-freedom-fight ... berta.html

Rumble — WE CAN WIN! Patrick King is a proud father of 2, Freedom Fighter and Patriot who took on the powerful government in Alberta, and WON!
We can ALL learn from this, and we MUST battle this in every single city, every single county, every single state, every single NATION!
The fight for freedom is a worldwide effort, and WE CAN WIN!
conniption
 
Posts: 2480
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Grizzly » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:34 pm

^^^
But, that's from a red team blog!!! /s
“The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it.”

― Joseph mengele
User avatar
Grizzly
 
Posts: 4908
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:15 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby conniption » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:38 pm

Grizzly » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:34 pm wrote:^^^
But, that's from a red team blog!!! /s


That's okay. I'm so happy... and scared at the same time.
conniption
 
Posts: 2480
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Grizzly » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:07 am

Same!
“The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it.”

― Joseph mengele
User avatar
Grizzly
 
Posts: 4908
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:15 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby norton ash » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:13 am

Alberta's a club rouge base,
Zen horse
User avatar
norton ash
 
Posts: 4067
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Canada
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:39 am

Jerusalem Post

Lessons, cautionary tales from Israel on the pandemic’s next stage

The story here shows that details on Delta’s spread among the vaccinated need to be better documented.

Israel has been one of the world leaders in vaccination efforts, a success that should show the way forward for many countries being assured that vaccines may help them return to “normal” during the pandemic. This is particularly true in the US, where the CDC has warned of a “pandemic of the unvaccinated” and experts are quoted saying that the “unvaccinated are the greatest threat to pandemic recovery.”

The tendency in the US to assign blame and find scapegoats is amplified by major media, which argue the pandemic is “spiraling out of control due to unvaccinated people.” Israel has a lesson here and it is a cautionary tale: Large numbers of vaccinated people are testing positive, apparently due to the new “Delta variant” that has impacted much of the world.

Prime Minister Naftali Bennett has said that “the scientific facts are clear: Those who get vaccinated get infected less; those who get vaccinated are less contagious. If you don’t get vaccinated, you put yourself and your loved ones in danger, especially the elderly.” On July 20, The Jerusalem Post reported that of the 143 hospitalized patients, 58% were fully vaccinated, 3% were partially vaccinated, and 39% were not vaccinated at all.
Israel is still very much trying to struggle with what to do next in an uncertain era. This is because the simplistic analysis that media have tried to shoehorn the pandemic into, quoting some experts, has sometimes been misleading.

There is no magic “return to normal.” Countries discover that just when they think cases are going down, they find them going up. Various measures, from social distancing to masks and lockdowns, have not always been effective. There are many cases to learn from, whether the experience of Australia – where a tough border policy initially appeared to enable “normal” life – to Sweden, where the choice not to lock down was slammed by outsiders but turned out to work fine. Big data tells us that the number of cases per million in Sweden, for instance, is not vastly different from Israel, where there were lockdowns.

The US has lurched from one extreme to another during the pandemic. The new zeal against the “unvaccinated” has sought to heap blame on a swath of the country where vaccination rates are slightly lower among adults for the spread of COVID. There are also calls for vaccine mandates in the military and angry articles asserting that unvaccinated areas are to blame for the spread of the Delta variant.

“Delta variant surges in US amid lagging vaccination,” reads one headline. One commentator, who is not a medical expert, has said on CNN that “we are going to move from a world of incentives to disincentives… This is no longer people just hurting themselves. It’s people incubating deadlier forms of the virus, more infectious forms of the virus, and exposing others to harm, especially children.”

In this line of argument, “vaccinated America” has “had enough” of the unvaccinated. “This was the week that vaccinated America started to get really fed up,” says Brian Stelter on CNN. He says there is a major divide in the US and that is why there is talk of “mandates,” apparently related to vaccines and masks.

Israel was able to achieve an impressive rollout of vaccinates – and not only to vaccinate much of the adult population, particularly the elderly who were vulnerable to COVID’s first waves, but also to achieve impressive vaccination levels in the military, where 83% were vaccinated by March and there were zero deaths.

Yet today in the Jewish state, despite all this and without being able to blame the “unvaccinated” – who make up only a small number of people – there is a rise in COVID cases beyond 1,000 a day to even 2,000, which is a lot for such a small country.

Despite major American media claiming that the rise in cases is primarily in states with low vaccination levels, in fact there are large numbers of cases in many states across the political and vaccination spectrum. This is because the US doesn’t want to have a healthy media discussion, with actual experts, about what is going on.

Some media in the US prefer a simple conclusion, blaming unvaccinated areas for why the pandemic isn’t over, and concluding that “in the United States, this pandemic could be almost over.” There’s no evidence it could be over, because with the exception of China, where there are almost no cases, most of the world is seeing the pandemic continue. Countries with the highest vaccination rates, including the UK, Israel and the US, continue to have rising cases. High profile cases of vaccinated people getting COVID are beginning to break through into media, with cases like the UK’s health secretary. This has led to discussion about what these “breakthrough” cases are.

Back in April the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in the US said that “evidence suggests vaccinated people don’t spread COVID-19.” Articles put up headlines such as “yes, vaccines block most transmission of COVID-19,” as The National Geographic wrote. That was the situation in Israel as well: The number of new cases declined dramatically as the vaccine rollout increased.

Then, cases began to grow again in June. By July there were thousands a day. This is alleged to be due to the spread of the Delta variant, which has tragically and coincidentally come along just as everything was returning to “normal.” Now articles are explaining “why vaccinated people are getting breakthrough infections.” Mask guidelines have been reversed. The CDC agrees and has also reversed the indoor mask guidance. This has been surprising for some, and articles have asked “why are vaccinated people still testing positive for COVID-19,” as Fortune wondered.

Others point out that vaccines weren’t going to reduce new cases to zero and that if you have a highly vaccinated public, then some of those who are infected will be vaccinated. But this still leaves an elephant in the room when it comes to Israel’s experience.

According to NBC, “CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said recent studies had shown that those vaccinated individuals who do become infected with COVID have just as much viral load as the unvaccinated, making it possible for them to spread the virus to others. Based on that finding, Walensky said the CDC is also recommending that all school children wear masks in the fall.”

AS USUAL in the US, they are concerned that “messaging” might lead people to do something that is not in their best interest. This is why America also issued misleading mask guidance early in the pandemic when they claimed there were shortages of masks. People were told not to wear masks so that there wouldn’t be a shortage.

Now the question is about vaccination rates. “Within the administration, there had been concern that a focus on mask use could take away a key incentive for people to get vaccinated, which they believe was a factor for many people in choosing to get the shot,” says NBC.

The US has made another odd decision as well, which is worth quoting in full from the NBC report: “Just how widespread infections among the vaccinated are in the US is unknown. The CDC said in May it would stop monitoring the number of infections in vaccinated people aside from cases where a fully vaccinated person was hospitalized or died. Walensky said on Monday the agency has been tracking specific groups for breakthrough infections and would be reporting that data soon.

“The limited data so far has left doctors saying they feel they are flying blind in trying to assess the risk the new variant poses to their patients and relying on data out of other countries like Israel, where researchers released data last week showing the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was just 39% effective against preventing infection from the delta variant and 91% effective at preventing severe disease.”

America, which has the resources to track big data such as infections and spread among vaccinated people, appears to have dropped the ball when it comes to gathering important information early on during the vaccination effort. In essence, this dovetailed with the rise of the Delta variant, such that when people needed this information about how it was spreading among all sectors of the population, some information was not forthcoming.

Israel, which has tried to reduce politicizing the pandemic, is reporting how many cases there are a day and apparently how many are among vaccinated people, because Israel wants to know what to do next.

CHANGING MASS narratives about the pandemic have left many wondering what might come next. This is because when it began in January 2020, it was largely blamed on a “wet market” selling exotic, live animals, a theory later dismissed. Talk of a “lab leak” was banned on social media for a year.

Later, confusing information about masks presented a challenge for the public. While the WHO praised China for its mask mandates in Wuhan in February 2020, it waited until June to provide guidance for the rest of the world. It also waited weeks to declare a pandemic, appearing to affirm that the spread had been contained in China by February 25.

What followed in March were guidelines in Western countries asserting that “two weeks” would “slow the spread.” In fact, that’s not what happened. While the world struggled with changing regulations and strategies, including talk of “herd immunity” in the UK and a zero-case goal in New Zealand, vaccine programs eventually kicked into gear in the fall of 2020, in record time.

Israel was among the first to put in place mass vaccination, pushed by positive government messaging and national health care. By March 2021 this had become a major success. By July, however, the pattern of success in reducing cases had changed.

WHAT ISRAEL now knows is that while hospitalizations are relatively low and deaths have been reduced to near-zero, the overall number of spreading infections, assumed to be of the Delta variant, is growing. This is not good news for those who gambled on stopping the spread.

It’s also confusing because the public initially wanted to protect the elderly by using vaccines. But now it appears that not only may booster shots be in order, but also vaccines for children. This leaves some adults wary and skeptical. While in the US the media war about vaccines boils down to political crusades, now informed by toxic messaging of health mandates, a more reasoned discussion might ask about where this is all going.

Vaccine producers so far have not produced a patch that deals with Delta, similar to how tech companies create patches against vulnerabilities. Delta may also only be the latest incarnation of a changing geography of pandemic.

This is because we are now largely entering a new phase. The first phase was the initial crisis, the second was the vaccination phase, but the third is the one in which spread continues and variants emerge that somehow prevent the return to “normal.”

Some have argued for a while that the pandemic should be seen like the flu, and that given the vaccines’ ability to reduce symptoms, overall spread can be discounted. This appears to be what Singapore is saying. Count the hospitalizations, as we do with more serious illnesses, but not every case. For many countries that are case counting, like Australia, that won’t happen yet.

A MORE serious discussion is lacking. Why is the world still playing catch up with basic coordinated measures and data sharing? Claiming that this is a “pandemic of the unvaccinated” in the US is more about trying to coerce people into being vaccinated, than having a larger discussion about how to plan strategically in a time of pandemic. For instance, “normal” life may not be possible if we have to be fearful of new “variants” all the time. Coordinating strategies to identify variants and rapidly test their particular threats might be better. For instance, why was it not known that Delta would infect and spread among vaccinated people? Why is there so little discussion of a vaccine booster that particularly targets Delta? What is the next “Delta” – the next variant that will appear, maybe next year – to set everything back again?

In previous eras, governments seeking to deal with a crisis have coordinated their activities better. Whether it was the space race of the 1960s or the Manhattan Project, or the World War II – when whole factories were used to produce bomber aircraft – the use of the nation’s best and brightest to deal with a national or global crisis was normal. So where are the best and brightest today – and where are the national and international efforts to systematically coordinate COVID responses?

At every turn, this pandemic has taken people and countries by surprise. Countries are labeled “green” one week and “red” the next for travel. Basic information on masking was confusing in the first months. While some countries mandate masks for children, others do not. Much of this appears based on attempted prevention, not necessarily lab-driven studies based on big data.

Even questions about something as simple as “how many vaccinated people got COVID yesterday?” lack basic answers in some places. These basic questions are replaced by shouted responses such as, “when everyone is vaccinated, then those who get COVID will be vaccinated, so what?” Well, it might matter if your measure for opening borders is the numbers of cases and the vaccination rates, to know things like “how many people are vaccinated and positive, and are they transmitting it among each other?”

OTHER MYSTERIES persist. There are vaccines being rolled out across the world, some of whose efficacy against Delta are apparently unknown. That leaves countries grasping for answers, seeking what they perceive as the best vaccines. This shouldn’t be the case. National coordination and preparing for the future should mean systematically testing vaccines against variants, transmission and serious cases – to see what is happening, not just to postulate.

Instead of these kinds of responses, we continue to see chaos. Countries sometimes talk of vaccine passports or cards as a method of entry to venues, and then sometimes scrap the idea. Mask mandates for indoors come and go. When we read, many months after Delta appeared, that “the limited data so far has left doctors saying they feel they are flying blind in trying to assess the risk the new variant poses to their patient,” this is disturbing. Why wasn’t their national COVID center established to coordinate responses? What happens next year when there is yet another new issue that comes along?

Major media appear to prefer click-bait stories about these crises, such as depicting India as falling apart due to Delta in the spring, rather than trying to learn from this information. People prefer to be told to blame the “unvaccinated” – without asking about why a new variant might be uniquely placed to do what the old COVID variant was less lethal at doing.
stickdog99
 
Posts: 6562
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:15 am

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript ... st-1-2021/

JOHN DICKERSON: One country that started vaccinating its population early on is Israel. That head start means that the US and other countries are watching Israel's COVID and vaccine data for clues about what might happen in their future. Last week, Israelis started giving those over the age of 60 booster shots, becoming the first country in the world to do so after data showed diminished protection against covid among those who had been vaccinated eight months ago. To get a sense of what Israel is seeing, that may give us guidance to the next steps here in the US, we turn now to Sharon Alroy-Preis, who is Israel's director of public health services. She joins us from Jerusalem. Good morning, Doctor.

DIRECTOR OF ISRAELI PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICES DR. SHARON ALROY-PREIS: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

JOHN DICKERSON: Thank you for being with us. So Israel is seeing the same thing we have in the states, an uptick in cases because of the Delta variant. What is the biggest concern for you with the Delta variant?

DR. ALROY-PREIS: So there are two major concerns. One is that the Delta variant is 50% more infectious than the previous, the Alpha variant, which was 50% more infectious than the original one. And we still have a third of our population that is not immunized or has not been recovered. We have a large children population. And so that is obviously concerning. The other point is that we are seeing about 50% of the people who are infected right now are vaccinated, fully vaccinated individuals. And so that is obviously of concern. Previously, we thought that vaccinated, fully vaccinated individuals are protected. We're now see- we now see that the vaccine effectiveness against disease is roughly 40%. It still remains high for severe disease. But we are seeing diminished protection, especially for people who have been vaccinated earlier.

JOHN DICKERSON: So in that category of those where you're seeing diminished protection, is it possible to break out what portion is diminished because they received the vaccine earlier? And what portion is- are those who've been vaccinated, who are infected, who have, for lack of a better term, a robust vaccine protection?

DR. ALROY-PREIS: That was the- the million-dollar question for us. And we've been following this for several weeks now, trying to tease apart whether it's a problem of elderly individuals who have lower immune system response, and that's together with a Delta variant- more infectious. We see this. Or it's really waning immunity. And what we have been seeing in the past several weeks is actually an evidence that there is waning immunity. If we compare people both over the age of 60, but also between 16 to 59 who were immunized early on, so were fully vaccinated by the end of January, we see infection rate among them that is 90 per 100,000 which is double that of those who were fully vaccinated in March. So we see a drop in- in the vaccine effectiveness against disease for those who have been vaccinated early on. And we see it for both elderly people over the age of 60, but also for younger.

JOHN DICKERSON: And so that data presumably, obviously, is what's leading to the booster shots. Have you been able to draw any conclusions from those who've gotten a booster shot? Has it worked as you'd hoped?

DR. ALROY-PREIS: So we've just started the booster shot. I will- I have to explain that the decision to make a booster shot available is a combination of two. First is really the evidence of what we think is waning immunity and the difference between the infection rate between those who were vaccinated early on and those who were vaccinated later, but also the evidence that we have increased severe and critical condition in hospitalization with severe and critical conditions among the 60 and above population who are fully immunized. And that's together with the fact that we are seeing lack of- lack of response to the vaccine over time has led us to suggest to people or actually allow them to be vaccinated a third time. So it's- it's not just the fact that we're seeing more disease, but they're getting to severe and critical conditions.

JOHN DICKERSON: On the question of mask mandates, Israel has reinstated those. Are you seeing the same thing that- that seemed to concern officials here in the United States about those who are vaccinated being capable of spreading? And that that was a finding they hadn't seen here in the states before.

DR. ALROY-PREIS: So we are looking at that. We are trying to introduce back what we call the green pass, which means people can go into events with a certificate that they have been vaccinated or recovered individuals or to be tested. In order to continue with this policy we needed to check if vaccinated individuals can infect others. We know that they can be infected. We see them. They're 50% of the confirmed cases on a daily basis now. But the question is whether they can infect others. And we actually saw that 80% of vaccinated individuals who have become confirmed cases themselves, 80% of them have zero contacts that have been confirmed and another 10% have- have only one contact that- that was confirmed to be a case because of their connection with this individual. So their ability to- to infect others is 50% lower than those who are not vaccinated.
stickdog99
 
Posts: 6562
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby drstrangelove » Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:57 am

snap lockdown in Melbourne today. snap protest tonight in response. the city grows restless. i bumped shoulders with a masked man today because neither of us conceded ground when passing. we both knew what's coming.
drstrangelove
 
Posts: 985
Joined: Sat May 22, 2021 10:43 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Karmamatterz » Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:15 pm

The Florida Hospital Association on Monday reported 10,389 Covid-19 hospitalizations, the most statewide during any point in the pandemic. This follows Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reporting over the weekend that the state had more than 21,000 new coronavirus infections on Friday. It was the highest one-day total for Florida, which now makes up roughly one and five new cases nationally.



Over what time period is this for? You are trying to be rational and sane here, much appreciated. Why I ask is that very often over the last 18 months data is aggregated and dumped into the public information sphere and the media grabs hold of it and reports it like suddenly 10,389 were hospitalized in one day/week/month or whatever period. The problem is that the date period isn't clear often times, just like it's not clear in the quote.
User avatar
Karmamatterz
 
Posts: 828
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:58 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:38 pm

.
https://www.ecosophia.net/july-2021-ope ... ment-69232

I work in a large city hospital medical and cardiac ICU with covid and ECMO patients. I was also around for H1N1 when we stopped sending samples to the state lab because they were coming back negative for H1N1 and we still classified them as H1N1. I watched this practice repeat with PCR test run 40-45 cycles to generate known false positive tests. I personally had patients that had multiple negative test and CXRs still labeled covid. After a career specializing in minimizing the injurious positive pressure ventilators inflict on the lungs I was shocked when we began intubating patients for ventilators directly from 6 liter per minute oxygen providing nasal cannulas. I was told this was from national and international guidelines. I thought this was wrong and said as much but it wasn’t my call. We now know this likely increased mortality. I see how billing influences treatment choices and especially covid diagnosis. I could go on but won’t.

I have cared for hundreds of covid patients for thousands of hours. The statement you attribute to your friend (those in ICU reportedly saying "but I thought Covid was a hoax") is not only untrue, it is also a well known trope not uncommon to left wing media. I have never heard anything remotely like this with any of these patients who I happen to specialize taking care of. It didn’t ring true when I saw post and videos of that very statement before. It’s been written about as being false in other places.

That doesn’t mean you don’t believe what you’ve been told. The people telling that story believe they are doing the right thing. They also think people questioning the mainstream narrative are dangerous luddites.

Nothing personal. It's just that particular anecdote is very familiar to me word for word.



A portion of this forum's readership will believe the above to be a work of fiction. Believe what you wish. Commentary similar to the above anecdote has been shared -- to me, in-person -- by other nurses, doctors, and health practitioners I've spoken with over the last ~18 months. Those that are willing to speak "off record", that is.
User avatar
Belligerent Savant
 
Posts: 5573
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: North Atlantic.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:01 pm

It's fair game, the extent to which this public debate / propaganda war is conducted through anecdote says a lot about how piss poor data collection and standards have been so far.

The social dynamics of medical malfeasance cut to the core of everything RI: a system where millions of people with good intentions are just doing their jobs according to official instructions.

Iatrogenic deaths number in the hundreds of thousands in any given year here in the beacon of the free world, and dozens of medical reversals get published annually, so it is hardly a stretch to make this case -- and hardly slander, too.

There seems to be a very strong, consistent undercurrent of organized crime's role in the health care industry involved with both the ventilator guidance itself, and the much-hyped "shortage" that drove the prices through the roof.

As it stands in 2021, the healthcare industry is largely controlled by financial and industrial interests that are only involved for profits. That's not anecdotal.
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
 
Posts: 10896
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:29 pm

.


Astute points/perspective.
User avatar
Belligerent Savant
 
Posts: 5573
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: North Atlantic.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:33 pm

Wombaticus Rex » 05 Aug 2021 21:01 wrote:It's fair game, the extent to which this public debate / propaganda war is conducted through anecdote says a lot about how piss poor data collection and standards have been so far.

The social dynamics of medical malfeasance cut to the core of everything RI: a system where millions of people with good intentions are just doing their jobs according to official instructions.

Iatrogenic deaths number in the hundreds of thousands in any given year here in the beacon of the free world, and dozens of medical reversals get published annually, so it is hardly a stretch to make this case -- and hardly slander, too.

There seems to be a very strong, consistent undercurrent of organized crime's role in the health care industry involved with both the ventilator guidance itself, and the much-hyped "shortage" that drove the prices through the roof.

As it stands in 2021, the healthcare industry is largely controlled by financial and industrial interests that are only involved for profits. That's not anecdotal.


Spot on. Buyer beware, of course.

Except for vaccines, of course. Vaccines have special and unique exclusion from all the evils of criminality, oligarchy, capitalism, and corporatism.

As I wrote here before COVID-19 was a glint in Bill Gates' eye:

As you state, the vast majority of even the informed segment of scientists against mass fluoridation and even the doctors who devote their lives to sounding alarms against the evils of prescription drug manufacturers typically carve out a special exemption for vaccine manufacturers. Why? Obviously, this is not because rigorous experimentation has been performed to prove that the benefits of each recommended vaccine far exceed its risks and costs. As you correctly point out, blind faith in the inherent wonderfulness and "pharmacological inactivity" (I mean, do you truly believe that self-falsifying claim?) of each and every vaccine ever developed or yet to be developed makes such experimentation "unethical." (Of course, the control groups for the Phase 3 COVID-19 vaccine experiments have long since been vaccinated on exactly this basis, rendering any timely discovery of these experimental vaccines' long term health effects effectively impossible.)

It is as if all vaccines, even those yet to be developed, are protected in perpetuity from objective scientific scrutiny by some sort of ontological argument: "By definition, all vaccines are medical interventions that which none greater can be imagined. ... "

Since our blind faith in the monolithic good of VACCINATION tells us that the benefits of vaccines must always exceed their costs and risks, it is clearly and inherently unethical ever to deprive any population of any specific untested vaccine, and thus it is also unethical ever to design any scientific experiment with the potential to demonstrate that any specific untested vaccine's risks and costs exceed its benefits. Why? As far as I can tell, this whole ontological argument is based on nothing but a completely circular appeal to the overwhelming "scientific consensus" that until very recently assured us the exact same of fluoridation and circumcision (and currently still tries to assure us that the only safe place for mercury in our entire environment is the "full containment" of children's mouths). Why does this remind me of my initial reaction when I discovered my baby teeth in my mother's sewing kit and was informed that the tooth fairy was not real?

"But, but, Santa Claus is still real. He must be! Right?"
Last edited by stickdog99 on Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
stickdog99
 
Posts: 6562
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests