Mass shooting in Las Vegas, 2/10/2017

[stickdog99]

Since Paddock is dead we can't possibly know his mental state. We don't know that he was happily married, well adjusted, content etc. If he was alive right now he might have a perfectly "reasonable" explanation for what he did.

Maybe he just wanted revenge on Las Vegas after losing his fortune on gambling? Maybe he was so introverted that he came to despise humans in general? We will probably never know what exactly motivated him, but being a wealthy senior citizen certainly doesn't rule him out.

Do you have any evidence that Paddock lost his millions? He just sent $100,000 to girlfriend. He still had planes and millions in real estate. Even granting some currently unknown and completely speculative motive, hundreds of thousands of senior citizens have gone belly up. Millions upon millions of senior citizens have gone though intense personal difficulties. But none that we know of ever turned into senseless suicidal mass shooters. So why are you intent on believing Paddock did without a shred of evidence or a whiff of motive presented?

Again, who has senselessly killed more innocent strangers in human history? Individual senior citizen murderers who then off themselves or organizations seeking power and profit?

Please try to answer honestly.

[stickdog99]

No one says this behavior is highly likely. Only that the size of the pool of potential perpetrators (any one of them astronomically unlikely) is large enough that regular occurrences of this shit become likely, in fact predictable. (And sorry, that "pool" in this case happens to be fucked-up men with enough guns.) It's you who are having a problem with the same basic probability theory that Paddock himself would have understood easily.

You are mostly only deluding yourself by defining Paddock's "profile" in such a precise and overwrought way as to supposedly rule him out as too unprecedented to be a shooter. You may as well say no small plane pilot landlord poker player with a bank robber father residing in Nevada was ever accused, therefore it must be the alternative scenario of _____ (a blank you don't want to fill in with speculation - that's what I meant by "don't get pinned down" - but obviously has some white rich psycho dudes at the back as the actual masterminds).

Also, you are either ignoring or spinning away everything everyone who is contradicting you is saying. I wasn't going to engage any more, but the example of your response to Burnt Hill speaking from experience was annoying. I'll stop. There are no uninvolved and well-informed third-party judges here, most likely, but if there were, I'd be happy to submit our respective posts to their scrutiny without needing to engage in this any more. Thank you.

Yes, you are the victim here, Jack. Now name all the senior citizens of any demographic stripe who shot dozens of strangers and then killed themselves. Let's see the list that proves how probable this behavior pattern surely is. Surely someone here can produce this list!

[JackRiddler]

Marvel drops Northrop Grumman tie-in after Comic Con fan rebellion

Attendees at New York fan gathering welcome decision to drop series featuring ‘Elite Nexus’ heroes branded for the maker of stealth bombers and drones

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/201 ... are_btn_fb

“Northrop Grumman is a huge defense contractor and after something like the Las Vegas mass shooting, it makes extra sense that people would be pretty upset about such a partnership,” said Kevin Heyel from Rye, New York. “It’s a good vibe here at Comic Con and that kind of tie-in could have disrupted that. But I’m shocked that they pulled the plug on the deal at the last minute.”

Diana Marano, a New Yorker, was dressed as Harley Quinn, a character she described as “Joker’s girlfriend” from DC Comics’ Batman story. She said it was inappropriate for a company that “makes weaponry” to be promoted in a comic series.

[JackRiddler]

If you bothered to research it yourself you would have a list of at least 10 such cases of U.S. mass shootings by men in their 60s. I certainly would have bothered to do that before mouthing off so aggressively with such a self-evidently unsustainable claim. Once you too have located this easily searched info, you can try figuring out their net wealth, as if it would matter.

[JackRiddler]

[minime]

Isn't this fun?

[Burnt Hill]

stickdog99 wrote:
"Can our resident expert name a single previous senior citizen millionaire who became a mass shooter? Can you? So I guess we are all equally missing the requisite expertise on this topic. Right?"

Yep, annoying, unfair, bad logic and unnecessary..

stickdog99 wrote:
Now I get it! Critical thinking is what radicalized him to senselessly murder people!

Donald Trump says Stephen Paddock was ‘probably smart’ in bizarre TV interview.
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/10/08/donald-trump-defends-paper-towels-in-puerto-rico-says-stephen-paddock-was-probably-smart-in-bizarre-tv-interview-analysis.html

This thread has been great, lets not let it devolve now!

[elfismiles]

FYI - I think I've stated this elsewhere but they are former Alex Jones employees ... fired because they broke policy and were dating each other.

Muddying the conspiracy waters is SOP, and goes way back, just like Jack says. For a recent example, there is a couple that runs a Youtube channel, "Truth Stream Media". They've got high production values, quick turnaround during events, carefully written scripts, and they sound like trained tv presenters. Producing their videos obviously requires full time, professional effort. They put out what appears to be very plausible, rational, and well sourced commentary from a conspiracy angle. Their video on Las Vegas pushes the Andelson/Chertoff security motive. It's being shared everywhere, but I don't buy them for one second. Their coverage of other topics I know quite well displays an expert level mixture of real information with false, pushes interpretations that lead investigators away from, rather than towards, legitimate sources and theories. They're professional disinfo agents.

We are swimming in a sea of false, misleading, and or agenda driven information, presented through emotionally manipulative media. It's such a mess.

[elfismiles]

Riddler at his most agreeable...

So again, attend to the likelihoods of this case and also the nature of the story told. Where's the grand motive enabled by the Paddock story? Gun control? Seriously? Maybe if there were a half-dozen of these within a very short period. Constant increase in all forms of organized surveillance and security harrassment? When that is rolling along regardless? Is the security industry in crisis for lack of demand? Hardly. It's too general and vague for a set-up with political/economic motives, and the plausibility of a single person doing this in the cultural and social contexts of 2017 is too high. And even for an op, a single shooter (or single shooting location) is logistically the sounder option if a single shooter is what you're aiming for in the story. (Seven shooters including on ground level and not a single video is going to emerge? Seriously?)

This too is typical and how things happen for older pilots...

As early as 2010, he could no longer fly his planes. His medical certificate expired, according to Federal Aviation Administration records, and there are no indications that he renewed it.

[brekin]

So name the ones who have actually followed through on their "bucket list" death wishes.

None of them, though these are all men who have sought mental health help.

ego despair causing sane, comfortable senior citizens to become actual senseless mass shooters

Assuming Paddock did this, I would not be assuming he was sane and comfortable.
After that I agree with everything you say.

It's really pretty appalling that so many people, even here, find it perfectly normal, understandable and unsurprising that a young Muslim mother or an old happily-married millionaire would commit a massacre of random civilians for no discernible reason whatsoever.

I don't know anyone that found either of these events normal, understandable or unsurprising..
Especially not here.
We are trying to understand it all though, each in out own way.

I think something to mull if you believe events such as these are often orchestrated wholly, or in part, by some larger organized force, is that those planning and carrying out those/these events would have to share some of the same psychological equipment of self activating "lone nuts". The only thing separating them really then is resources, organization, and access to technology all provided by institutional patronage, immunity & cover. But as technology continues to increasingly "empower" the motivated auteur in all realms then that really matters less and less. Also, institutional support and cover is also negligible to a point - to be completely immune you'd have to have the backing of the whole machinery of the military-industrial-entertainment-academic complex, and then everyone is basically complicit and in on it. In reality, the slaughter of innocent is always the work of evil, insane (or sane but morally bankrupt) people asserting their control over others short term or long term. To whit, there has to be individuals who never found a fuehrer nor made the black ops all star team who nevertheless are embarked on a private war against humanity, for free. Some will find a ideology to support their rampage, while others probably will just have a private narrative that supports their actions, and some will do it for the same reason that dogs lick their balls - because they can.

A good example is the similar but inverse example to Stephen Paddock, Lakeisha Holloway. A young, poor, single black mother decided to attack numerous innocent pedestrians on the Las Vegas strip by driving her car up on it and running over people, injuring dozens and killing one, all with her toddler in the car. Nothing I've seen so far in life tells me that just the regular day to day humdrum cruelty of society couldn't produce such a person, or nature producing one of its "anomalies", or an individual deciding that their own misery is caused by others and not themselves. I don't know why there is then so much pulling of hair over Stephen Paddock of his intentions, what made him tick, possible confederates and links, etc. when there wasn't similarly with Lakeisha Holloway, whose attack they also believe was premeditated. Perhaps people want to believe there has to be a bigger reason when there is bigger blood shed? That with great suffering their has to be a great meaning, or mystery? Maybe, instead, it has just gotten easier for people to convert their thought into action? And many of those thoughts happen to be brutally simple instead of complex? I think Ghengis Khan probably capped the mind set best that exemplifies the path that he and all his lesser imitators go down:
A man's greatest moment in life is when his enemy lays vanquished, his village aflame, his herds driven before you and his weeping wives and daughters are clasped to your breast.
Genghis Khan

Lakeisha Holloway, Accused of Las Vegas Sidewalk Attack, Could Face 1,000 Years
by Alex Johnson

Lakeisha Nicole Holloway could face more than 1,000 years in prison if she's convicted of numerous new charges brought against her Wednesday for allegedly mowing down dozens of pedestrians on the Las Vegas Strip, killing one and injuring dozens more.

Holloway, 24, who is originally from Oregon but had been living in her car with her 3-year-old daughter at the time of the incident Dec. 20, was arraigned Wednesday at the Las Vegas-Clark County Regional Justice Center.
Prosecutors dropped a preliminary count of leaving the scene of an accident, but their amended criminal complaint added numerous battery counts, for a total of 71, including one count of open murder with use of a deadly weapon, 30 counts of attempted murder with the use of a deadly weapon and two counts of child abuse.

The abuse counts relate to Holloway's daughter — who was in the back seat when Holloway drove her car onto the sidewalk near the Planet Hollywood hotel-casino — and to an 11-year-old victim who was struck.
Police have previously said that the incident was a premeditated attack, and Clark County District Attorney Steve Wolfson said Wednesday that is she's convicted on all 71 counts, Holloway could be sentenced to more than 1,000 years in prison.
Chief Deputy District Attorney Marc DiGiacomo said the charges would "ensure the protection of our community from the defendant for a very long time."
Attorney Scott Coffee, Holloway's public defender, told NBC station KSNV that she was "doing well" and was not on suicide watch.
Court records showed that Holloway, who remains held without bond in protective custody, is next due in court Feb. 4.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/la ... -1-n500746

[Wombaticus Rex]

If you bothered to research it yourself you would have a list of at least 10 such cases of U.S. mass shootings by men in their 60s. I certainly would have bothered to do that before mouthing off so aggressively with such a self-evidently unsustainable claim. Once you too have located this easily searched info, you can try figuring out their net wealth, as if it would matter.

We had one in my backyard that changed a lot of lives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Drega

(As a general rule, "X has never happened once in human history" is a losing-ass argument.)

[elfismiles]

What the fuck does money have to do with this?

It buys happiness?

The senior citizen part was already stated upstream, including the fuckhead who shot at me and all the folks at the parade in San Antonio in 1979. Yeah, he wasn't a millionaire. So what?

OK, thanks for not burning me at the stake with Alex Jones for simply questioning the official story and providing some links I find interesting.
...
But I still don't understand why it is more reasonable to assume that Paddock is a lone nut. I am still waiting for someone to produce the list of previous senior citizen millionaires who shot scores of people to death for no reason. In my humble opinion, we have been conditioned to believe that such behavior does not require any more explanation than "well, he's male." And the Farooks prove that if you are Muslim, you don't even need that in your "explanation."
...
Mentally stable senior citizen millionaires don't commit such acts of sociopathic insanity. Mothers with small children certainly don't commit such acts of sociopathic insanity.

Uh ... ever heard of the horrors of postpartum depression murderous mothers:

https://www.google.com/search?q=mother+kills+children
https://www.google.com/search?q=postpar ... us+mothers

[JackRiddler]

to be fair, the story on the NYT front page linked immediately below the report on Paddock's life (which I found pretty credible overall) is this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/worl ... syria.html

Just in the way of saying I get it that anytime you read anything in the NY Times you want to believe the exact opposite. But that does not work either.

One difference is that in the case of the Bana Alabed construct the agenda and the interests being served are easy to see and understand.

PS - Jesus, WR and elfis. And sorry.

[DrEvil]

Stickdog, what you're saying is essentially something like: There's never been a car crash at this intersection before, so that can't possibly be a car crash I just witnessed. Just because something hasn't happened before doesn't mean it will never happen. Old, rich white guys also have fucked up minds.

I never said white. I never said male. I said economically comfortable senior citizen. That is a pretty huge demographic in the United States over the past 100 years of automatic weapon gun availability. Wouldn't you agree? So, name another economically comfortable senior citizen who became a senseless suicidal mass shooter.

You can't. But you are still so determined to believe that such behavior is highly likely that you went to the trouble of constructing a bizarrely nonanalogous analogy so that you can keep believing that something that has never happened before is actually an example of something probable. Why? Can you feel the dissonance?

I never said it was "highly likely", something it obviously isn't, or this kind of thing would be happening far more often, but it is possible.

You're claiming that since this has never happened before with this kind of perpetrator it can't possibly happen at all, which is patently absurd. Being senior and wealthy isn't some kind of magical shield against mental illness or committing murder. As you just said yourself: "That is a pretty huge demographic in the United States over the past 100 years", so I would argue it was only a matter of time before it happened.

Do you have any evidence that Paddock lost his millions? He just sent $100,000 to girlfriend. He still had planes and millions in real estate. Even granting some currently unknown and completely speculative motive, hundreds of thousands of senior citizens have gone belly up. Millions upon millions of senior citizens have gone though intense personal difficulties. But none that we know of ever turned into senseless suicidal mass shooters. So why are you intent on believing Paddock did without a shred of evidence or a whiff of motive presented?

Again, who has senselessly killed more innocent strangers in human history? Individual senior citizen murderers who then off themselves or organizations seeking power and profit?

Please try to answer honestly.

I will answer honestly if you apply a shred of logic to your arguments.

No, of course I don't have any evidence of him losing his money, I was speculating on possible and entirely hypothetical reasons why he might have done it. If I had any evidence I would have posted it.

That powerful people have killed a shitload of people throughout history doesn't have anything to do with whether Paddock did it or not. Again, that no one like him has done this before (which is wrong btw, several examples in this very thread) doesn't prove that he didn't do it. That whole argument is just ridiculous.

So why are you intent on believing Paddock did without a shred of evidence or a whiff of motive presented?

There is the small matter of his dead body, a huge stash of weapons and the police recordings that mention his room, but I guess they don't count. It sure as hell looks like he did it, or at the very least was involved somehow.

As for motive, I already said he's dead and we may never know, but that doesn't mean he didn't have one, it just means that we don't know. I know it sucks not knowing every little detail about something horrible, but sometimes that's just the way things are.

[identity]

I can identify with Paddock wanting the recipe for enchiladas, though. I'm sure more than a few who enjoy cooking would identify with not wanting to die without knowing the recipe to that one special dish you so loved!

MacArthur Park is melting through the park,
all the sweet, green icing flowing down.
Someone left the cake out in the rain,
And I don't think that I can take it,
'cause it took so long to bake it,
And I'll never find that recipe again, oh no!

There will be another song for me
For I will sing it
And there will be another dream for me
Someone will bring it
I will drink the wine while it is warm
And never let you catch me looking at the sun
For after all the loves of my life
After all the loves of my life
You'll still be the one

I will take my life into my hands
And I will use it
I will win the worship in their eyes
And I will lose it
But I'll have the things that I desire
And my passion flow like rivers through the sky
But after all the loves of my life
after all the loves of my life
I'll be thinking of you
And wondering why

Any indication that Paddock was a fan of Barbara Streisand?


edit: Her name is "Barbra" apparently. My bad. Worse than that, the song was (recently) recorded by Nancy Sinatra, not Barbra. Apologies to Barbra, Nancy, and RI.