Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

[stickdog99]

Yes. I question all of them. To the best of my ability. And I don't stop there! I also question the terms on which they're questioned! Because I strongly prefer to determine what questions are worth asking my own self.

I think pretty much all those prefabricated questions that are raised (and answered) by people and/or interests who profit directly from that process are just about equally disgusting, to be honest with you. I've often wished that I didn't. But what can you do? There's no arguing about taste.

Come again? Can you name us one specific vaccine, vaccine ingredient, vaccine administration method or vaccine administration schedule recommendation that you question?

You do realize that being able to mandate 30+ vaccines for every individual born as well as annual vaccines to every individual on earth could potentially result in a rather large source of corporate profit. Right? So while some questioning vaccines may have a profit incentive, this is obviously dwarfed by the profit incentive of those promoting the unquestioned universal administration of any and every potentially "promising" vaccine. Right?

[compared2what?]

Please also do everyone a favor and retire that lame-ass I'm-rubber-you're-glue rhetorical strategy where you accuse me of doing what you're doing for twenty pages, then take a breather for twenty pages, then lather, rinse and repeat sooner rather than later. Because it's tedious. Thanks.

If you have nothing to post other than another bizarre, angry personal attack, do not post anything. Because it's tedious. Thanks.

You're welcome! Your wish is my command.

It wasn't bizarre, angry or personal, though. Or an attack. It was an observation that either was or was not justified by the context in which it arose. And seriously, dude. People are free to determine which for themselves by reviewing the readily available evidence for it that's right in front of them. So there's really neither any use nor any need for spin. Especially spin that's directed toward the c2w-is-a-bizarre-angry-personal-aggressor demographic. I mean, it's not like you have to stump for that vote. It comes with the territory.

______________

ON EDIT: I see that you're asking me a follow-up question. Please allow me to repeat myself. I am too horrified by this thread to continue posting to it. I completely condemn, curse and reject the terms of this debate. They're odious, benighted and harmful in themselves, and I don't want to have anything further to do with them. So victory is yours!!!

Have fun with it. In fact, if you wait a minute, I'll help you by conceding. Just stay there, okay? BRB.

[compared2what?]

Yes. I question all of them. To the best of my ability. And I don't stop there! I also question the terms on which they're questioned! Because I strongly prefer to determine what questions are worth asking my own self.

I think pretty much all those prefabricated questions that are raised (and answered) by people and/or interests who profit directly from that process are just about equally disgusting, to be honest with you. I've often wished that I didn't. But what can you do? There's no arguing about taste.

Come again? Can you name us one specific vaccine, vaccine ingredient, vaccine administration method or vaccine administration schedule recommendation that you question?

Curses! It hadn't occurred to me that you'd actually ask. What a blunder on my part, huh? You win!

You do realize that being able to mandate 30+ vaccines for every individual born as well as annual vaccines to every individual on earth could potentially result in a rather large source of corporate profit. Right? So while some questioning vaccines may have a profit incentive, this is obviously dwarfed by the profit incentive of those promoting the unquestioned universal administration of any and every potentially "promising" vaccine. Right?

Right.

[Searcher08]

Just skimming the points briefly here, as someone who personally has both Aspie and neurotypical traits (as do a lot of posters on RI according to informal self-assessment of a non legally binding nature), I think that this thread fire needs some gasoline poured on it. Which I shall attempt to do. Now to be above board, I have no children of my own; I regard most allopathic medics with a skepticism that would make James Randi go "Whoa!".
What I would lie to pour into the mix here is a wider question of personal freedom and choice and system effects from that.
If we have vaccines V(1) and V(2) and V(3), which have been given for many years and helped drastically reduce eg diseases like polio, diptheria and typhoid, then as the benefits of not dying in a pool of one's own shit are pretty self-evident, then the question in the minds of both (hopefully) wellness centred developers and public health policy makers will be "WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO THIS WITH?"

And herein lies a problem Because as any fule will kno, combining two individually effective interventions in a complex system can often result in much less optimal effects. When the number of vaccines grows into dozens, and each one is only tested in isolation (AFAIK), which shows - - by itself a good deal of benefit then the mindset of everyone should have it kicks in. So we are in a situation where some the potential for unexpected and consequential side effects from vaccines is set to build over time OCCURING AT THE SAME TIME as the public health trend is towards an enforcement and 'you-may-be-ass-reamed-by-us-if you dont comply' environment.
Like the Laffer curve, there may come a point where multiple combinations of vaccines are themselves causing major public health problems.
I foresee a time in the US when children will be pulled out in front of their class and have their ass jabbed with a fucking harpoon by some sub-contracted black clad billy club wielding TSA goon.

[catbirdsteed]

Quote Searcher

I think that this thread fire needs some gasoline poured on it

.
While I like to see activity around this topic, and would prob find agreements with your actual points, I don't exactly agree about that!especially not while the thread is already very active and contentious.

[nathan28]

"Dubious" isn't accurate, and the vaccine should "work" in theory. What you didn't mention is that the first round of HPV vaccine targeted *two* viruses (virii? viri?). There are something like 100 known HPV viruses and something like 15-20 are genital, with some of those being completely asymptomatic, and some causing cancer, and some of those cancer-causing strains being successfully cleared by some hosts' immune systems. Likewise most sexually active adults have "been exposed" to HPV. If I'm not mistaken the current version of Gardasil now targets four different virus. That's an improvement for sure.

You also neglected to mention that one "treatment" for cervical cancer is hysterectomy. Surgeries, even those that end in -tomy, don't count as "injuries", but you might want to consider that organ removal may be involved when weighing costs and benefit.

Hysterectomies are only indicated in the most advanced/aggressive cases of cervical cancer. The vast majority of women at risk for HPV associated cervical cancer can be effectively treated by simple biopsies of their pre-cancerous lesions. The trick is to get your annual check up so that these dysplasias are recognized before they become cancerous.

Please do not tell me how simple my annual pre-cancerous-lesion-detecting biopsies are or are not. Because you have absolutely no way of knowing and don't appear to have given the question a moment's consideration. Nor have you made any very evident attempts to inform yourself about the real forces that govern the real access of real women to simple gynecological care. So just shut up. Thanks!

LOL

You're fucking disgusting.

[barracuda]

Really. Maybe the next time you're fortunate enough to enjoy an intensive urethral curettage or prostate biopsy you can let us all know just how simple the procedure was for you, stickdog.

Generally speaking, the Gardasil discussion is indicative of how far afield the topic has to be taken in order to procure even meagre patches of fertile soil for the Wakefieldian contingent to continue to forage.

[Searcher08]

Quote Searcher

I think that this thread fire needs some gasoline poured on it

.
While I like to see activity around this topic, and would prob find agreements with your actual points, I don't exactly agree about that!especially not while the thread is already very active and contentious.

Sorry, I forgot to add a <sarcasm> tag.
I'm concerned that the extremely contentious nature of the problem, means that other more systemic aspects which are now growing perhaps more quietly, will be ignored. Given that children are now being publicly sexually abused at airports in the name of 'Keeping Amerika Safe' and that this summer will see the advent of public DNA testing in the name of the same, I see this migrating from a very thorny public health issue into an extremely personal liberty one.

[nathan28]

Quote Searcher

I think that this thread fire needs some gasoline poured on it

.
While I like to see activity around this topic, and would prob find agreements with your actual points, I don't exactly agree about that!especially not while the thread is already very active and contentious.

Sorry, I forgot to add a <sarcasm> tag.
I'm concerned that the extremely contentious nature of the problem, means that other more systemic aspects which are now growing perhaps more quietly

You mean the "more systematic aspects I care to find", as exemplified by stickdog's willingness to descend into run of the mill prophet of doom misanthropy by referring to most humans as docile, deluded "herd" cattle in one breath, then in the next, clarifying exactly who it is he hates by pointing out how 'harmless' cervical lesions are.

And cervical cancer in the first world is no big thing? Which it actually isn't to most people, especially the ones without cervixes, but never mind?

...Though needless to say, if you're more irrationally alarmed by medical issues that raise the specter of adolescent female sexuality than you are of highly infectious diseases with an 80 percent juvenile fatality rate, that is, of course, your right as an American/Canadian/whatever-you-are.

But whatever, "THEY" might be taking away your right to go through an airport b/c of teenage girls getting Merck's Gardasil. On the Laffer Curve. Jesus.

[Searcher08]

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying with your reply.

We are living in a culture where personal freedom is on the wane - maybe you have not been to an airport recently.

http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/02/26 ... anner-1-2/

Vaccines which may have been effective in isolation are now being combined and administered in bigger groups with potentially unexpected results not to mention untested results; school districts are refusing some children entry unless they have had shots.

Are you in favour of mandatory vaccination?

I dont see your idssue with the Laffer curve as a discussion point - does your logic stop at one thing good, so fifty things things fifty times good?

[eyeno]

catbirdsteed for the record I am squarely on your side on this issue. Injecting mixed metals into a small child 30 times is so stupid it defies my ability to believe they can sell people on the fact that it is a wise thing to do. If we had the time and desire to do so, we could list a pro and con sheet on this one that would be so heavy on the con side that the sheet would flip right off the table. Speaking of "cons", the number of cons that are run in the vaccine industry are so large we could probably spend year trying to document them all. In my opinion, autism or no autism, this one should be a no brainer.

eyeno, you've put your finger on the persuasive tool employed by the anti-vax rhetoricians in your statement here. Everything else about this "debate" is just a carefully crafted chain of false dichotomies which subvert any sort of nuanced exploration of the issues.

If I say that there is no link between autism and vaccination, then I am de facto defending the pharmaceutical industry.

If I say that vaccines are dangerous, then I tacitly agree that vaccines cause autism.

The discussion pretty much ends there. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

The point that I've repeatedly tried to make in this thread is that it's possible for vaccines to not be safe and also not the cause of autism. See how that works?

Concern for the children is perhaps the emotional thought-stopper and the success of this psy-op, which it clearly is, contains an irony that barely gets acknowledged, which is that autistic (or mis-diagnosed as autistic) children are being harmed as a result of it because it's now open season on subjecting them to dangerous experimental procedures, like chellation with industrial grade chemicals or Lupron "therapy." There is now a multi-million dollar industry around care and treatment of autism as a result of Wakefield's false claims, and even though in recent interviews Wakefield is now claiming that he discovered an entirely new disorder, he is setting up a treatment home for adult autistics.

This thread is not my cup of tea but since you responded to me i'll do so in return.


Carefully crafted chain of false dichotomy? Yes I agree totally. Crafted by the fda/vaccine industry who is getting rich on the backs of innocents. What else is new?

Autism has become a catch all name for a bag of symptoms and spectrums. Is it totally caused by vaccines? I would say there is a better than average chance that the answer is "a lot of it probably, maybe not all of it". Mainstream medical big corporate scammers love these catch alls because it creates this carefully crafted chain of false dichotomy that can be forever argued with no resolution. They do not want a resolution. Resolutions cost billions in profit.

I can't and won't speak for Lupron but chelation therapy on the whole has been proven safe and effective decades ago. So safe and effective in fact that the FDA (mainstream medical strong arm agency) wants to halt it all.

mmmmm...tough choice huh? Believe the vaccine industry/FDA people when they say vaccines are safe but have never been proven to be safe, or believe my lying eyes?

I'll take my eyes. No problem. There is a multi billion industry growing up around this autism problem and certain people intend to make sure this industry never dies even if it makes children miserable. (fda/vaccine industry)


Yes I consider the vaccine industry to be engaged in so many intentional forms of disinfo that it is hard to know where the psy-op begins and ends. Mercury is toxic to human beings. We know this. A little may not hurt you too bad but how much is enough for a small child? I consider 30+ vaccinations for a small child's body excessive.


This is your brain. This is the neuro-degenerative PROCESS that BEGINS when mercury is introduced into the human body. Metals are not easily expelled from the body which is why the damage is a PROCESS and not an event.





This is the Faux News psy-op story that tells us mercury/preservatives may make children smarter. This fostered by the much tainted Journal Of Pediatrics mouthpiece for mainstream medicine.

[barracuda]

I can't and won't speak for Lupron but chelation therapy on the whole has been proven safe and effective decades ago. So safe and effective in fact that the FDA (mainstream medical strong arm agency) wants to halt it all.

Can you point me to any reputable sources on this idea? Because it is at odds with my understanding of chelation as a treatment method generally seen as so dangerous it is used only as a last resort in clear circumstances of heavy metals poisoning.

[catbirdsteed]

just to make certain that no innocent soul gets a particular vaccine twice, unless of course they need it twice... (titers, anyone?) This will be very handy as mandatory vaccination programs are increased in scope and severity.

c2w I had no idea about the concerns re: lengthy posts, responses to lengthy posts. I truly appreciate your current approach to post and length, thus the "thank you". My suggestion that Scientology beatdowns be kept brief on this thread was because someone else had lengthy ones going many pages prior. Only one of the comments was directly to you and it was in honest gratitude.

http://govhealthit.com/newsitem.aspx?nid=76399

CDC will link public health EHRs with immunization tracking system
By Mary Mosquera
Monday, February 28, 2011

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention plans to enable the electronic health records (EHRs) of state and local health departments to share data with immunization information systems, and to integrate the immunization systems with CDC’s vaccine tracking system.

Immunization information systems, or registries, receive and share patient data with other systems, such as EHRs. They also can generate reminders and assess vaccination coverage within a defined geographic area. By consolidating immunization history into a single source, it’s easier for providers and parents to assure that children get the vaccines they need and reduce the time required to track immunization records.

All state health departments have some type of immunization information system, but they have a variety of functionality. CDC wants to assure interoperability between these systems and EHRs.

CDC plans to award a contract to provide technical assistance to enable this functionality, including project management, operations and assessment to support CDC grantees’ immunization information systems and to interface with CDC tools, including its vaccine tracking systems, according to a Feb. 24 announcement in Federal Business Opportunities

The Vaccine Tracking System (VTrckS) integrates the publicly-funded vaccine supply chain from purchasing and ordering to distribution of the vaccine. It allows healthcare providers to order vaccines directly. The system evaluates vaccine orders against specific guidelines set by state, local and territorial health department grantees and CDC.

VTrckS went operational in December 2010 with four public health pilots in Michigan, Colorado, Washington State, and Chicago, CDC said.

http://www.vaccinetimes.com/tag/mandatory-vaccinations/

* The preservation of the public health is the primary responsibility of state and local governments, not the federal one.
* State/local governments have the power to institute measures such as quarantine, isolation or enact mandatory vaccine laws.
* U.S. courts have rejected the constitutional concerns raised by petitioners to mandatory vaccine laws (Jacobson v. Massachusetts)
* Every state and the District of Columbia has a law requiring children entering school to provide documentation that they have met the state immunization requirements.
* Many states provide exemptions for medical, religious, or philosophical reasons (exemptions vary from state to state).
* All states allow medical exemptions for those whose immune systems are compromised, who are allergic to vaccines, are ill at the time of vaccination, or have other medical contraindications to vaccines.
* Nearly all states grant exemptions for persons who oppose vaccines for religious reasons. For example, all states, with the exception of Mississippi and West Virginia, provide for religious exemptions.
* Exemptions based on philosophical or moral convictions are less common but are provided by 20 states.
* Many states require health workers to be vaccinated; exemptions for medical, religious and philosophical reasons are available to them as well (they vary by state) but not for all diseases.
* Many states have laws providing for mandatory vaccinations during a public health emergency or outbreak of communicable disease, especially ones with high morbidity or mortality rates. Exemptions for medical, religious or philosophical reasons are still available, however a person who refuses to vaccinate during the emergency may be quarantined.
* At the federal level, no mandatory vaccination programs are specifically authorized, nor do there appear to be any regulations regarding the implementation of a mandatory vaccination program at the federal level during a public health emergency.

So, the answer to the question: are childhood vaccinations mandatory is: Yes and No. Yes, since most states require that children attending day care centers or schools provide documentation proving that they are up-to-date with their childhood immunization schedule, and no because those same states allow many exemptions for medical, religious and philosophical reasons. You may think that’s bad, but consider that in the other hand, child car seat laws are mandatory and do not, to the best of my knowledge, offer any exemptions for any reasons. Thus, to the best of my knowledge, vaccination laws are more relaxed than car seat laws, and car accidents are not contagious. You can judge for yourself if this is a good or bad thing, but the facts remain as described above

.

http://www.immunize.org/laws/#mmr
pdf's here

MMR
CDC INFORMATION
Requirements for childcare
Last published by CDC for the 2007-2008 school year, this information may not be current.
Please contact your local coordinator for more detailed information
Requirements for kindergarten
Last published by CDC for the 2007-2008 school year, this information may not be current.
Please contact your local coordinator for more detailed information
Measles Dose 2: Requirements for kindergarten
Last published by CDC for the 2007-2008 school year, this information may not be current.
Please contact your local coordinator for more detailed information
Measles Dose 2: Requirements for middle school
Last published by CDC for the 2007-2008 school year, this information may not be current.
Please contact your local coordinator for more detailed information"

[nathan28]

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying with your reply.

We are living in a culture where personal freedom is on the wane - maybe you have not been to an airport recently.

And we live in a culture where libertarians pretend they support the "rights" of "everyone", but seem to stop when it comes to asking whether or not women have a reasonable expectation not to have their reproductive organs removed when there's a quite possibly very effective prevention against that because, oh, shit, that's, like, complicated. Better go get back to that red herring about retarded security measures at airports, that's clear-cut.

[Plutonia]

Stuff

*sigh*

eyeno, did you happen to skip the many, many posts in which I showed the Co$'s hidden hand promoting the conflation of autism/vaccination?

How about where I posted the symptoms of mercury poisoning in contrast to the symptoms of autism?

Did you listen to the interview with Dr. Wakefield where he says clearly that in his initial study back in 1998 - yes, the one that kicked-off this shit-storm, he found no connection between MMR and autism?

Did you overlook the post where I showed how the pos-autism blogger Kevin Leitch, the guy who first uncovered the Co$/Moonie/anti-vax connection was heinously harassed by a vaccine=autism proponent?

See, it's not just big pharma that's the special interest group in this issue and unless you have already determined that the enemy of your enemy is your friend, you might want to consider the possibility that the Co$ are are in fact a dangerous cult, adept at manipulating public perception and that you are in danger of falling into their reality tunnel.

So, in the interest of getting past the stubborn Yesitis!/Noitisn't groove characteristic of this discussion, not that I didn't enjoy that flame war, cause I did - such a rarity on this board! - here's a couple more questions to ponder:

Does any of us here believe in the paradigm of the mechanistic universe that underpins the allopathic medical model? No? Well then, why accept prima facie that viruses harm or protect mechanistically? The same with mercury. I have a friend, a little older than me, whose father happened to keep a jar of mercury in his shed. He and his buddies entertained themselves by pouring the mercury into their mouths and then spitting it back into the jar. Hilarity ensued. He didn't turn autistic and neither did his friends for that matter, nor has he suffered from any neurological disorder since. Can you imagine how much mercury his body would have absorbed with each exposure? Way more than in a dozen or more MMR's.

But I don't take the needle for flu, though I have in the past for tetanus and def. would for rabies, because I'm paranoid and to my mind they are the perfect mechanism for delivery of specific pathogens to targeted populations. So, two cases for your consideration:

A few years ago a local public health nurse was fired because she spilled the beans that the flu vaccine that she had been given to administer to her Native clients, contained a sterilizing agent. The Native birth-rate in Canada is tremendous so it's not hard to imagine some pharmocrats in Ottawa spiking the vaccine "for their own good."

The other story is shadier. I came a cross it online several years ago but it seems to have disappeared off the web. It was about a researcher who had discovered a 1:1 ratio between the villages in Africa where the WHO had vaccinated for smallpox and the AIDS outbreak a few years later. All those resources over there, all those residents in the way, smallpox is a problem.... ? Anyone know that story?


To end, I would appreciate in future anyone who wants to include autism in this discussion, to provide us with some evidence to justify doing so. Okay? Thanks.


Edit: I have to slip this in here, or I'll be in contravention of my own request! Lol!

eyeno, to show you that the Co$ are not bit players in this, here's some recent news about Co$ infiltrated autism "advocacy" group Dan!: Ontario wins appeal against parent who demanded public funding for US-based Defeat Autism Now! [Co$] doctor & [Co$] protocols.

Whew!