Huge explosion in Oslo

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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Peachtree Pam » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:05 am

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/ ... TH20110725

Norway attacker detained, claims collaborators

(Reuters) - A judge ordered eight weeks detention on Monday for the Norwegian man who has admitted a bombing and shooting massacre that killed about 90 people and who claimed in court to have two more groups of collaborators.

Custody, in line with prosecutors' request, will allow them to investigate the case against Anders Behring Breivik, 32, an anti-Islamic zealot who has previously claimed sole responsibility for Friday's attacks. The custody can be extended.

Judge Kim Heger said that Breivik would be locked up alone with no incoming letters, media nor visitors except for his lawyer. A trial could be a year away.

"The accused has made statements today that require further investigation, including that 'there are two more cells in our organization," Heger told a news conference.

Breivik told the court that he acted to save Europe from Islam. He had previously said he had acted alone.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:08 am

"crikkett wrote:I think this is relevant to consider when wondering why Breivik wrote in English.

I understand that modern Norwegian is a constructed derivative of Danish, and was foisted upon Norwegians for nationalist reasons. There's contention over which language to use. The majority of Norwegians, this article states, use the older Danish "Bokmål"
http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling ... egian.html

Someone correct me if I'm wrong!


It's a point worth making, crikkett, but I don't think it's greatly relevant. Using either of the two varieties of written Norwegian would have greatly reduced his potential readership, and I take kenoma's point that "Andrew Berwick" was more of a "modern" pan-European racist and Islamophobe (with intellectual pretentions and almost Napoleonic ambitions) than a narrow backwoods Norwegian nationalist. Also, it's now become clear that at least a large part of that tome was lifted, sometimes verbatim, from the Unabomber and other native-English writers, which explains at least some of the decidedly "unforeign" quality that had struck me so strongly.

But there are still a lot of things about this whole case that don't add up for me, and I still strongly suspect that Waxface was being both used and supported by people in high places, whether he knew it or not. (The huge delay in arresting him still flabbergasts me, for instance, and I've still seen no remotely convincing explanation for it.)
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:18 am

Image

"For everything to be consummated, I only wish that there be a large crowd of spectators the day of my execution, and that they greet me with cries of hate."

Seems the Norwegian police haven't become any more security concious over the last few days. Don't they have closed vans - bulletproof ones - for transporting somebody like this? Norwegians might be laidback in general, but nearly 100 families have lost their children. He could end up having more in common with LHO than just the mocked-up rifle pictures if they drive him around Oslo in a car like that. In the wider shot it looks almost specially designed to show him off to the public/media. For all anyone knows he could also still have accomplices out there who might want to free him.

Apparently he wanted to wear his Templar uniform to the arraignment but that request was denied. He'll now be held for eight weeks, the first four in solitary, while the prosecution prepare their case, which shouldn't be difficult. He pled not guilty, but admitted to carrying out the attacks.

Some have called for the entire trial to be held in private to prevent Mr Breivik from being given a platform for his views.

http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/186293/2 ... way-ha.htm


Mmm, I can't help having some sympathy with that view, just like I can't help having some sympathy, or at least understanding, of the shoddy (and likely terrified) police response. If he is Andrew Berwick then he planned for all this in advance - a grandstanding trial where he can recruit others to his cause, or at least plant seeds in barren minds, and a deliberate blow dealt to the credibility of the "system protectors" in order to sow fear among the public.

He also planned to die in the attacks, though, and that didn't happen. He must've cancelled or failed to get to what Berwick calls the "bonus mission". He estimated he'd have a 5% chance of survival there.

What an appalling nerd he is, on top of all the other stuff.

EDIT: Peachtree Pam beat me to it on the arraignment.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:24 am

Ahab wrote:Seems the Norwegian police haven't become any more security concious over the last few days. Don't they have closed vans - bulletproof ones - for transporting somebody like this? Norwegians might be laidback in general, but nearly 100 families have lost their children. He could end up having more in common with LHO than just the mocked-up rifle pictures if they drive him around Oslo in a car like that. In the wider shot it looks almost specially designed to show him off to the public/media. For all anyone knows he could also still have accomplices out there who might want to free him.


At least we are not being shown pastel drawings by a courtroom artist. At least the photos prove that he does actually exist and that he is still alive.

Unless he is actually sitting there embalmed.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:29 am

lupercal wrote:
Joe Hillshoist wrote:Ever seen the inside of a rescue chopper?

I don't imagine it'd be appropriate for the transport of paramilitary cops.

So you know your way around paramilitary transport vehicles, do you? That doesn't surprise me.


pure poison.

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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:31 am

:shock:

1604: Island death toll revised down to 68 - Norwegian police

[...]

1611: So in total, the known death toll is now 76, not 93. Explaining the confusion, police cited difficulties in gathering information at Utoeya.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14274908


In what way is that an explanation? "Difficulties in gathering information at Utoeya"? What is that even supposed to mean?

How can they have got the death toll so extremely wrong on such a tiny island? Announcing seventeen bodies too few would be somewhat more understandable (desire to be 100% certain/ gradually finding more bodies in the water/ etc.) - but seventeen too many makes no sense at all to me.

Or am I missing something really obvious here?
Last edited by MacCruiskeen on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:38 am

Norway gunman claims a London connection and links to the EDL
Breivik's 1,500-page manifesto details links with far-right groups, but EDL issues statement condemning the attacks


Matthew Taylor, and Mark Townsend in Oslo guardian.co.uk, Sunday 24 July 2011 21.40 BST


Anders Behring Breivik, the man behind the Norway killings that left 93 people dead, began his journey in extremist rightwing politics at a small meeting in London in 2002, according to his online manifesto, and may have attended a far right demonstration in the UK as recently as last year.

In a 1,467-page document that contains chilling details of his preparations for Friday's attacks, Breivik outlines his UK links, claiming he met eight other extremists from across Europe in London in 2002 to "re-form" the Knights Templar Europe – a group whose purpose was "to seize political and military control of western European countries and implement a cultural conservative political agenda".

The manifesto, signed "Andrew Berwick London 2011", contains repeated references to his links to the UK far right group the English Defence League. On Sunday there were unconfirmed reports from one of the organisation's supporters that the 32-year-old had attended at least one EDL demonstration in the UK in 2010.

"Bar one or two doubt the rest of us ever met him, altho he did come over for one of our demo in 2010 … but what he did was wrong," said an EDL member online.

In the manifesto titled 2083: A European Declaration of Independence, Breivik writes: "I used to have more than 600 EDL members as Facebook friends and have spoken with tens of EDL members and leaders. In fact; I was one of the individuals who supplied them with processed ideological material (including rhetorical strategies) in the very beginning."

The EDL – which has staged a series of street demonstrations, many of which have turned violent, since it was formed two years ago – issued a statement on Sunday condemning the attacks in Norway. It added that the league was a peaceful organisation which rejected all forms of extremism.

"There has never been any official contact between him and the EDL, our Facebook page had 100,000 supporters and receives tens of thousands of comments each day," it added. "And there is no evidence that Breivik was ever one of those 100,000 supporters."

The group pointed out that Breivik was critical of the EDL in the "manifesto", describing it as "dangerously naive".

Another UK-based organisation, Stop Islamisation of Europe , told Reuters that Breivik had tried to join their Facebook group but had been rejected over his apparent neo-Nazi links. However, they said it was possible he had attended one of its demonstrations.

Emblazoned with a red Iron Cross and published in English, the manifesto appeared online a few hours before the attacks. It appears to be a mixture of bomb-making manual, diary and political rant against a range of perceived enemies from "cultural Marxists" to Muslims, liberals and journalists.

It includes an detailed diary covering the 82 days leading up to the attacks which reveals Breivik's mood swings, his attempts to make explosives on a remote farm and even his favourite DVDs.

On the day he was to kill 93 people Breivik wrote: "The old saying; 'If you want something done, then do it yourself' is as relevant now as it was then." A few hours later he added: "I believe this will be my last entry. It is now Fri July 22nd, 12.51." Berwick signed off "AB Justiciar Knight Commander, cell 8, Knights Templar Europe."

The document details Breivik's isolated life on the farm as he carried out meticulous preparations for the attack, testing explosives and obtaining weapons.

It reveals an obsession with the Crusades and a supposed threat to Christian Europe posed by Muslim immigrants and mainstream political leaders. Breivik predicts a European civil war will take place in three stages, ending in 2083 with the execution of "cultural Marxists" and the deportation of all Muslims.

Friday's attack was being planned for at least 18 months, according to the document. Breivik expresses concern that preparations for the attack and the manifesto would alert the security services.

"I do fear sometimes that my endeavours relating to the research of the book, and acquisitions of these addresses has resulted in me being put on various watch lists," an entry dated March 2010 reads. "The question is; have they flagged me? I guess I will find out eventually."

In one section Breivik argues that is better to kill civilians than those who would offer more resistance, writing: "It is much more rational and pragmatical to focus on the easier unprotected targets instead of sacrificing good men on an impossible target … we should target unprotected category A and B traitors first and foremost."

He goes on to outline plans for a possible attack on a gathering of investigative journalists which he says is one of the "most attractive" potential targets.

"To illustrate; in Norway, there is an annual gathering … where the most notable journalists/editors from all the nations media/news companies attend (500 delegates - 98% of them are considered 'quality category B traitor targets'."

He sets out a detailed plan for a car or lorry bomb "covered with layers of projectiles for maximum damage" followed by an attack with rifles and flame throwers.

Breivik advocates attacks on traitors across Europe. "[W]e should under normal (optimal) circumstances not exceed (per 2010) aprox. 45 000 dead and 1 million wounded cultural Marxists/multiculturalists in Western Europe."

Anti-racist groups in the UK said they were not aware of the Knights Templar Europe and cautioned that Breivik may have made up some or all of the details.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... ection-edl


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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:41 am

MacCruiskeen wrote::shock:

1604: Island death toll revised down to 68 - Norwegian police

[...]

1611: So in total, the known death toll is now 76, not 93. Explaining the confusion, police cited difficulties in gathering information at Utoeya.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14274908


In what way is that an explanation? "Difficulties in gathering information at Utoeya"? What is that even supposed to mean?

How can they have got the death toll so extremely wrong on such a tiny island?


multiple reports of missing persons with scant detail, e.g. "i was with so and so. don't know their last name. we swam away together..." etc. people lost in the water, etc. numbers being revised downward happen all the time, during 911 for instance.

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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby crikkett » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:42 am

MacCruiskeen wrote:At least we are not being shown pastel drawings by a courtroom artist. At least the photos prove that he does actually exist and that he is still alive.

Unless he is actually sitting there embalmed.

In which case he *would* stink, and I'd be guessing right for a change.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:45 am

They thought the death toll might increase as they recovered bodies from the water around the island, but to have it revised downward is very strange. Unless people who swam away/hid are still being found alive now, having not been in contact with anyone all this time? That seems unlikely, though some who were able to swim away abandoned their clothes (and presumably mobile phones) before escaping.

Very odd. Everyone on the island for legitimate purposes would've been listed as being present, surely, so they would've had a full checklist of names to compare against the numbers of missing. Announcing the missing or unaccounted for as dead is not standard police practice.

I'm sure there's still a lot of understandable confusion around, but this should be the easy part of their job.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:55 am

vanlose kid wrote:multiple reports of missing persons with scant detail, e.g. "i was with so and so. don't know their last name. we swam away together..." etc. people lost in the water, etc.


See below. The name of every participant will surely have been known to the organisers.

vanlose kid wrote:numbers being revised downward happen all the time, during 911 for instance.


Totally different situation. There they had to deal with four crashed planes, three collapsed skyscrapers, an unknown number of people present, gigantic piles of rubble, thousands of buried & fragmented bodies, and a search that took literally years.

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:They thought the death toll might increase as they recovered bodies from the water around the island, but to have it revised downward is very strange. Unless people who swam away/hid are still being found alive now, having not been in contact with anyone all this time? That seems unlikely


It seems practically impossible, and it's the only explanation I could even think of.

AhabsOtherLeg wrote: Very odd. Everyone on the island for legitimate purposes would've been listed as being present, surely, so they would've had a full checklist of names to compare against the numbers of missing. Announcing the missing or unaccounted for as dead is not standard police practice.

I'm sure there's still a lot of understandable confusion around, but this should be the easy part of their job.


Agreed. :shock:
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:07 pm

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:They thought the death toll might increase as they recovered bodies from the water around the island, but to have it revised downward is very strange. Unless people who swam away/hid are still being found alive now, having not been in contact with anyone all this time? That seems unlikely, though some who were able to swim away abandoned their clothes (and presumably mobile phones) before escaping.

Very odd. Everyone on the island for legitimate purposes would've been listed as being present, surely, so they would've had a full checklist of names to compare against the numbers of missing. Announcing the missing or unaccounted for as dead is not standard police practice.

I'm sure there's still a lot of understandable confusion around, but this should be the easy part of their job.


the event was more of a camp/music festival thing. i doubt they had checklists of participants. everything seemed pretty laid back.

the po-po probably announced the reported dead and missing according to witness accounts etc. assuming the worst. pros do panic sometimes, ask Joe.

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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby barracuda » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:11 pm

Norwegian police have lowered the death toll of last Friday's shootings from 93 to 76, reports the Associated Press. A reduction was expected as police collected more details about missing persons after Anders Behring Breivik's mass shooting on Utoeya island. Breivik was arraigned in a district court in Oslo Monday afternoon, where he admitted that the attack was meant to stop Labour Party recruitment in Norway and claimed that two more terrorist cells existed. After admitting that Norwegian prime minister Gro Harlem Brundtland was the target of the attacks, Breivak pleaded not guilty of terrorism charges and will be detained for eight weeks before the trial starts. If convicted, he faces a maximum of 21 years in prison--or 113 days per murder.

CLARIFICATION: The Associated Press originally reported the death toll being lowered to 68. We've updated this post to reflect the actual count released by police: 76.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:27 pm

vk wrote:the event was more of a camp/music festival thing. i doubt they had checklists of participants. everything seemed pretty laid back.


Whether they had a checklist is surely find-outable. But even if we grant for the sake of argument that they didn't: Where did those 17 non-existent bodies come from? Or to put it another way: Exactly what were the police counting when they counted seventeen bodies too many? (Sorry if this sounds gruesome, but it's a legitimate question, in fact an inevitable one.)

As Ahab said: Announcing the missing or unaccounted-for as dead is, very decidedly, not standard police practice. For a start, they don't want to distress the relatives unnecessarily. People are only ever declared dead by the police when their bodies have been found and reliably identified (or have been missing for literally decades).

vk wrote:the po-po probably announced the reported dead and missing according to witness accounts etc. assuming the worst. pros do panic sometimes, ask Joe.


I have to say this rush to promote the Whoopsie Theory at all costs is starting to get on my nerves. So in addition to being prone to uncontrollable panics and preternaturally slow to respond, we're now being asked to believe that the poor Norwegian police are literally innumerate. So who gets them dressed in the mornings?
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:34 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:Whether they had a checklist is surely find-outable. But even if we grant for the sake of argument that they didn't: Where did those 17 non-existent bodies come from? Or to put it another way: Exactly what were the police counting when they counted seventeen bodies too many? (Sorry if this sounds gruesome, but it's a legitimate question.)

As Ahab said: Announcing the missing or unaccounted-for as dead is, very decidedly, not standard police practice. For a start, they don't want to distress the relatives unnecessarily. People are only ever declared dead by the police when their bodies have been found and reliably identified (or have been missing for literally decades).


you're assuming there were bodies that have been disappeared? who said the police counted seventeen bodies too many?

what is standard police practice? where?

this is Norway where what has happened "is the worst event since WWII". that's along time. and a lot of non-happenings.

edit: anyway, i'm not arguing the point (nor am i defending the po-po, by the way, in case anyone's confused). it's just what makes sense to me. the Norwegian po-po are naive newbies. they keep getting told that, even now. it was one of the main talking points when things went down. "see, see." ramping up the fear.

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