No, anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism

[11:11]

First thought on most Jewish Congress ever: Wow. Second thought: Oy

Notes from the first day of the most Jewish Congress ever: It was an exhausting day of celebration for the party (you know which party), the Jewish activists, the new members. Forty-three Jewish legislators in Congress, but who's counting?

Record
First thought: Wow, so many Jews in Congress. A record number: 43. That's huge. No wonder people are so excited about it.

Second thought: Isn't it too much? Just 2 percent of the population and 13 senators out of 100? Two percent of the population and 30 congressmen? Aren't they going to draw the attention of all the anti-Semites, conspiracy theorists, Walt and Mersheimers of the world? Maybe a lower profile would have been preferable?

Third thought: Is worrying the Jewish way of celebrating or what? As they used to say - start worrying, details to follow.

Six
Six new Jewish lawmakers, all Democrats, were sworn in today on Capitol Hill. They come from different places and from different backgrounds. Some represent areas heavily populated by Jews, some areas with a negligible number of Jews. Will they thrive? Will they survive? Today they seem mostly happy to be there.

Democrats
Did we mention all the new members are Democrats? Twenty-nine out of 30 Jewish members of the House are Democrats, nine out of 13 Jewish senators are Democrats, two are independents caucusing with the Democrats and two are Republicans. Those who attended the National Jewish Democratic Council reception, House majority leader Steny Hoyer included, will not forget this. If you had any doubt, most Jews are also still Democrats (not that anyone had any doubts).

Jewish
Nancy Pelosi became the first woman speaker of the House, but that's not the most remarkable thing about her (if you ask NJDC). She is the first speaker to have Jewish grandchildren. That's history.

Women
And speaking of women, new congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords is the "first Jewish woman from Arizona" to be elected to the House. She is also, well, how should I put it? It's always nice to be reminded again that not all Jewish legislators are older, balding, mustachioed men (did I just make an anti-Semitic remark?).

Caucus
Some people think being Jewish is fashionable now, and maybe that's why so many elected them as their representatives. There's a reason to believe that the colorful Giffords ("What is the most interesting or unique thing no one knows about you?: Either that I used to race motorcycles or that I lived in a Mexican Mennonite colony. Not at the same time, of course") can make it even more so. She is engaged to an astronaut (bald, mustachioed) and generally cool. Maybe she ought to join this new sub-caucus of cool Jewish women legislators. Current member: Debbie Wasserman Schultz (who also had a reception this week, attended by many Jewish activists).

Kosher
NJDC offered kosher food for their guests, and that's not very surprising. But how about Hillary Clinton making it kosher?
Nathan Diament of the Orthodox Union, celebrating his new blog, was thankful. It is a "clear mark of sensitivity," he wrote.

I wonder how is this going to work: Diament is the lobbyist for the OU, and now also a blogger. Good lack Nathan, that's a thin line to walk.

Israel
Is it good for Israel to have so many Jewish legislators? The Israeli ambassador to Washington, attending the NJDC reception, got a warm introduction. The Jewish legislators are pro-Israel, they said. And the ambassador, Salai Meridor, said that these are people who are committed - pay attention to the order - to America, to the Jewish people and to Israel. That's more than enough.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosn ... rc=Y&art=1

Poll: 71% of Israelis want U.S. to strike Iran if talks fail

By Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correspondent

Fully 71 percent of Israelis believe that the United States should launch a military attack on Iran if diplomatic efforts fail to halt Tehran's nuclear program, according to a new poll.

The survey, commissioned by Bar-Ilan University's BESA Center and the Anti-Defamation League, found that 59 percent of Israelis still believe the war in Iraq was justified, while 36 percent take the opposite view.

Some 65 percent believe that the United States is a loyal ally of Israel, with only 11 percent saying the opposite. A slightly higher proportion, 73 percent, described U.S. President George W. Bush as friendly. Forty-eight percent attributed U.S. support for Israel to strategic considerations, while 30 percent credited American Jewry and 17 percent cited shared values and a shared democratic tradition.


Regarding America's importance to Israel, there was near consensus: 91 percent said that close relations with the U.S. are vital to Israel's security. Some 51 percent of respondents predicted that the U.S. will ultimately impose an agreement on Israel and the Palestinians, while 43 percent disagreed.

In addition, 52 percent of respondents described American Jewish support of Israel as "sufficient," while 33 percent did not. About half of all Israelis believe that American Jewry is in danger of disappearing due to assimilation, the poll found.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/860903.html


Here is an Israeli paper talking about (and celebrating) Jewish influence in the US government and Israel's desire to use the US to attack their perceived enemy. Haaretz uses "Jews" as synomous with what I would call Zionist. Obiously, Israelis define themselves. So, ANY criticism of Zionist Israel will, conviently, be termed a criticsim of Jews and labled anti semitic. It's Zionists who lump all Jews together, not Americans, who have EVERY RIGHT to want entities loyal to a foreign power out of our government. I have no use their Zionist Christian fundie enablers, either. Treason is treason.

[yesferatu]

Boy, talk about stooping as low as possible. Rather than refute the facts about Israel and Zionism, just call the posters Nazis.

That is bullshit and you know it. Jeff is right about this, they use "zionism" as a code word for Jews, its not the zionists that they hate it is the JEWS. Stop being duped.

I know the difference between the two and I am sure you do also but, generally speaking, it is not about zionism it is about the fact that these people want to exterminate Jews en mass.

How incredibly ridiculous. Truly.

I started this thread with what I thought was a clear and concise delineation between anti-zionism (honest debate) versus anti-semitism (racism. It was all lumped under evil, nazi shit. What an utter load of crap.

If we all know it, then why can't we all discuss it? Because we all think we know the difference, and then we get bulldozed under the nazi bullshit pile.

I don't like what the zionists do, or have done in the past. It is that simple. It really is. It is people that disagree with me and say it is "code" for hating jews. Such shit, really.

Some or all nazis, or neo-nazis may be racist fear-mongering anti-semites and are quite likely anti-zionists too, but not every anti-zionist is an anti-semite or a nazi.

It is that simple. It is not a hard concept to understand. Most people get it.

The anti-semite card has been overused and has lost its effect for many people, so it appears now that the new smear card is nazi. And it appears that a person is a filthy anti-semitic nazi if they disagree.

C'mon folks, you are far too smart to shut down honest debate in this fashion.

I no longer try to have an "honest debate" here on this, because the pro-zionists give themselves carte blanche to smear with "anti-semite" accusations, and worry about stormfront nazis posting "under the radar", but have no suspicion about the possibility of ADL or AIPAC or CAMERA rabid zionists coming on and posting pro-zionism rants, and not even trying to fly under the radar. And of course, I have no idea whether that has ever been the case, regardless of how zealous someone may be - I have no clue, and suspicion is worthless, and not worth my wondering about.

I have come to the conclusion that there are a lot of new Charles Lindbergh types out there who will never see what we see. Lindbergh had a HUGE blind spot and you would never have convinced him that his support was incredibly lacking of objectivity, to put it kindly.
In the same way, you will never have an honest debate or get through to some the case that honest debate should take place without accusations of being a jew-hater, the accused "jew-haters" in these instances, being someone holding the opinion that "zionism" should be allowed to be discussed as a current injustice of the strong oppressing the weak.
Honest debate is shut down with accusations. Indeed, you cannot accuse someone posting, on mere suspicion, as shilling for AIPAC or ADL. That is forbidden. And that is fine. Suspicions are just that. BUT...it IS allowed, however, to call someone an anti-semite jew hater based on suspicion.

The more grievous accusation-by-suspicion IS allowed, while the lesser is forbidden. It is a lesser accusation, because, what if someone is paid by the ADL to make the zionist case on discussion boards? That is just being a paid shill. Not a horrendous accusation, as far as accusations-by-suspicion go. But to be accused of being a jew-hater IS allowed here...by mere suspicion alone. And all that implies is allowed: that because recognizing the problems Zionism has brought to the world, and wanting to discuss these things, means you can now be made into all that the worst of anti-semitism entails: that you - YOU - hate jews, YOU want to kill jews, YOU wish to persecute jews to their graves.

That is sickening. Really. But don't be too upset, though. This is just the internet. It's just a discussion board. I have been accused of the worst here. Give some so prone an anti-zionist inch, they'll make an anti-semite accusation mile.

Of course "zionist" is code for "jew"....at stormfront and such places. Of course it is. Who doesn't understand that? That is hardly an honest debate-shut-down argument. It is always used, though.

I would say be equally on the lookout for agents of stormfront et al...AND agents of the ADL and AIPAC and CAMERA as well.

But that is expecting balance.

[11:11]

This and Unknown Country are the only forums I've ever seen this bullying on. Jeff has said he is a Zionist, so he has a bias. Perhaps that's why this goes on.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Geeze will you lot stop whinging.

All sorts of shit gets spoken about people here. Hugh gets payed out nearly every time he posts. Ron Paul lovers and haters go at each other with metaphorical baseball bats. People argue over global warming, peak oil and god knows what else.

me and ATK have had ugly exchanges, even tho lately we are agreeing about the same things we fought about.

Get over it.

Like it or not given the history of the west and the baggage we have with WW2 and nazi death camps, people are gonna be put off by anti semeticism, and thats all there is too it. Jewish people will be hyper vigilant against anything resembling the vaguest hint of Nazi germany. (Pity unionists, JoHos, gay people, Rom, slavs et al aren't so hyper vigilant). I can't blame them for that, if I was in their position I would be too. That doesn't mean I approve of what the state of Israel does either tho. far from it.

Like it or not Zionism is a loaded word. It doesn't just refer to the establishment of Israel in Palestine. It has different meanings for different people. Face it and get over it.

There's two orthodoxy's at war here. The Zionism is good crew and the Zionism is bad crew and while both have valid points about the others arguments at times, the also get it wrong as well. Not all anti Zionists are undercover Stormfront thugs and not everyone who claims Israel is right is a Mossad thug.

None of this is helping bring about peace in the Middle East.

Also

I would say be equally on the lookout for agents of stormfront et al...AND agents of the ADL and AIPAC and CAMERA as well.

That might be a fair call too. Harder to spot cos it reflects the prevailing orthodoxy of the world tho.

AFAIAC, If it isnt the same people - Those that have ruled by proxy ever since, then i'll be dipped in dogshit.

That may be a leap too far for most to take. I really don't give a shit. Im just asking that people think logically about this.

....

Who are these guys ?

Same ones who runs the banks, financing all sides of wars and plunging the world in debt - to them. They're backing Hillary (and Giuliani) , lol. Kind of a great big hedge fund from hell.

Whats the implication here?

Jewish bankers?

Non Jewish bankers?

What?

Apparantly bankers has been code for Jews (as i found out last year) for a long time.

Combine that with ohh those evil Zionists and posts about Jews controlling the democrat party, the media and every other fucking thing and people are gonna start wondering what your agenda really is.

And no anti Zionism isn't anti semitism. On its own. Nor is it racist, despite what some posters might think.

But combining it with constant cries of "treason" and the rest and some ugly parallels come to mind.

[AlicetheKurious]

For what it's worth (not much, but for the record, etc), I'm incredibly frustrated by the (to me) unbelievably stupid lumping of anti-zionists with haters of Jews.

From my point of view, it's so obvious and straightforward that the former oppose a racist ideology, the latter are f*cking racists.

The former is motivated by love: love for humanity, love for justice and also (in my own case), love for international law.

The latter is motivated by hate and ignorance.

Anti-semitism and zionism smell exactly the same to me. Both turn my stomach the exact same way.

In the two years I've been posting here, I've received exactly one pm of "support" from an anti-semite. He/she was a lurker, with a name unfamiliar to me. (If he/she expected a warm welcome, he/she was sorely disappointed.)

The illegitimate conflation of anti-semitism and anti-zionism is one of the many ugly ways that zionists suppress criticism of what would otherwise be impossible to defend.

Zionism must be seen for what it is, without the obfuscation, blackmail and lies of zionist talking points. All they are is smoke: insubstantial but stinky, and thick enough to hide the truth for those who let it.

It takes courage and moral strength to walk straight through that wall of smoke to get to the reality experienced by the direct victims of zionism. Because there, behind that concealing wall, is where zionism, unleashed. shows its true face.

When I talk about zionism, that is my frame of reference: the reality behind the wall of smoke AS EXPERIENCED BY ITS VICTIMS.

Because to discuss the merits of a particular ideology exclusively from the point of view of the victimizer, without considering the perspective of those who are victimized by that ideology, is simply wrong. Immoral. Evil. Or, at the very least, misguided.

It's not rocket science.

[AlicetheKurious]

Joe said:

Combine that with ohh those evil Zionists and posts about Jews controlling the democrat party, the media and every other fucking thing and people are gonna start wondering what your agenda really is.

...But combining it with constant cries of "treason" and the rest and some ugly parallels come to mind.

The "ugly parallels" may "come to mind", and that's understandable.

But in the context of the political reality of the US, and how the American political elites are unashamedly subservient to zionist demands, abusing their control over citizens' resources to unconditionally support an extreme zionist agenda, it is unrealistic to expect informed citizens not to be outraged.

It is also unrealistic to expect informed citizens not to examine the mechanisms by which such a minority of American citizens have come to exert such a monolithic (and catastrophic) influence over their country's foreign policy.

[Jeff]

When I talk about zionism, that is my frame of reference: the reality behind the wall of smoke AS EXPERIENCED BY ITS VICTIMS

Alice, thanks; I think the issue here is one of frame of reference. And I don't have an issue with yours. My problem is with the transmutation and transmission of hard-right and fascist anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, and one of these bastards' favourite tactics to wedge their way into moderate right and left circles is to hijack the term "anti-Zionism."

They're here, as I've demonstrated on this thread. This is an anti-fascist board. Anyone who doesn't "get it," and fails to understand why this concerns me is, respectfully, on the wrong board.

[AlicetheKurious]

Jeff said:

My problem is with the transmutation and transmission of hard-right and fascist anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, and one of these bastards' favourite tactics to wedge their way into moderate right and left circles is to hijack the term "anti-Zionism."

Gotcha. In that case, we are on the same side. Conflating "anti-zionism" with "anti-semitism" does no good to the victims of zionism. On the contrary, whether done by those claiming to be "anti-zionists" or "zionists", it's just another kind of exploitation and abuse.

[Jeff]

Gotcha. In that case, we are on the same side. Conflating "anti-zionism" with "anti-semitism" does no good to the victims of zionism. On the contrary, whether done by those claiming to be "anti-zionists" or "zionists", it's just another kind of exploitation and abuse.

Right back atcha.

[yesferatu]

They're here, as I've demonstrated on this thread. This is an anti-fascist board. Anyone who doesn't "get it," and fails to understand why this concerns me is, respectfully, on the wrong board.

"They're here." Yes anti-semite nazi turds are here...as ALSO are agents of ADL and AIPAC. I am across-the-board anti-fascist. Zionism IS a form of fascism. Pro-zionism is giving support to a form of fascism.
Maybe not made so clear to an amerikan or canadian halfway across the world. But it is over there.
Ask Rachel Corrie. Oh, that's right....we can't. She's dead...killed by fascism which thrives out of our sight "over there".

I can't express it any better than Alice did:
<<For what it's worth (not much, but for the record, etc), I'm incredibly frustrated by the (to me) unbelievably stupid lumping of anti-zionists with haters of Jews.

From my point of view, it's so obvious and straightforward that the former oppose a racist ideology, the latter are f*cking racists.

The former is motivated by love: love for humanity, love for justice and also (in my own case), love for international law.

The latter is motivated by hate and ignorance.

Anti-semitism and zionism smell exactly the same to me. Both turn my stomach the exact same way.>>

And Joe, I don't know if you had me partly in mind, when you said stop whining...if so, then please read my post again. I said I have recognized it is just a discussion board, and taking lumps and shots has been my lot. I got over it quickly. No whining here.
I say to whomever: Believe what you need to about me....and hell, go ahead and publicize your suspicions if you feel you need to do that as well....smear me. That is fine. I know what is inside me, so it doesn't matter.

What I "whine" about is this: if it is okay to come on this board and accuse someone of anti-semitism (a horrible accusation), then it should be okay to allow for accusing others of being paid shills for AIPAC. I just don't like double standards in policies.

Personally, I can't advance my argument by accusing someone of being shills or tools, so I would not use that tactic.

I just think, if the policy is made which forbids accusations based on suspicion, of someone being a paid shill for AIPAC, then also, accusations-by-suspicion of being anti-semite should be forbidden. UNLESS it is NOT suspicion, but made clear.

Accusations of anything based on suspicion should be forbidden across-the-board.

[chiggerbit]

yesferatu said:

What I "whine" about is this: if it is okay to come on this board and accuse someone of anti-semitism (a horrible accusation),

But yesferatu also said over a year ago:

The dems allowed this atmosphere. They are not an opposition party. They are a side-show to this. Clinton can get angry all he wants (reports are he's furious), and then the next day hang around and laugh with his pals who pulled off the crucifixion. Fuckin buffoons.

That's about the most anti-semitic statement that I've seen ever posted on this board. I haven't forgotten, yesferatu. If you had apologized or said that that statement was over the top, I would have probably forgotten it by now. But you didn't.

When I called yesferatu on that statement back then, s/he replied:

Quote:

You should be ashamed of yourself.

yeah....oh well.
As commander bunnypants sez:
shame....shame on......me...?...foolmecan'tgetfooledagain!!

Yes, yesferatu, anti-semitism is a horrible accuasation. But I quite see your attraction to this subject.

[Jeff]

Anti-semitism and zionism smell exactly the same to me.

I think they must.

Some of what you've posted:

Sept 7 06: "Clinton can get angry all he wants (reports are he's furious), and then the next day hang around and laugh with his pals who pulled off the crucifixion."

When chiggerbit responded "Wow, that one's about as bad as it gets. You should be ashamed of yourself," you wrote "shame....shame on......me...?...foolmecan'tgetfooledagain!!"

July 17 07 you link to "Jewish Tribal Review": "a compilation of online links...about Jewish and Zionist influence in popular culture, Jewish ethnocentrism, Jewish power, Jewish wealth, American Judeocentrism, and Jewish political lobbying." You say you "liked the amount of quotes" and "did not see visceral hatred coming from it's content."

July 11 07: "I have a gut feeling about Chertoff" caption to a picture of Chertoff posing with two unknown orthodox Jews. A picture I found posted on Stormfront

I think I've smelled enough.

[Jeff]

chiggerbit, I see we were both thinking the same thing.

Yesferatu has been banned.

[chiggerbit]

Wow, that's a bit spooky, Jeff. Did I brain-jack you or something?

[Jeff]

Wow, that's a bit spooky, Jeff. Did I brain-jack you or something?

Could be!

I don't like to ban anyone but he'd been given enough rope on this issue to hang Mary the Elephant. Hopefully this will bring some clarity to the subject and to what crosses the line. And to why we have a line.