American Ate My Brain II

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Postby FourthBase » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:03 pm

ForthBase, is there ANY actual reason to suspect that "They" are planning Soylent Green for real, or is it just a justification of your squeamishness about some horror comic that you haven't even read. This kind of thing bothers me;, it seems like just an inversion of the Daily Mail/christian "outrage" at "immorral" art which likewise they haven't actually seen but have a pre-formed "opinion" about.


Eh, if you hadn't already noticed, despite the way it would totally pigeonhole me in my own "fundy" way, lol, I think it's either a guided conditioning OR a collective unconscious anticipation. Is there any actual reason to suspect that either is happening? Hmmm. Have you seen any of the conservative worst case scenario projections for this century?

It also just jibes with what I see as a growing cultural obsession with (or addiction to) meat, despite all the (non-moral) reasons to cut down on meat intake, fueled by the bigger-than-jesus fad diets that have people eating almost nothing but meat for two weeks at a time or longer. Whether it's planned or not, many many Americans are becoming psychologically if not physically addicted to gross quantities of meat.

Is my opinion pre-formed? No, it's partially-informed. I see absolutely no need for it to be fully-informed. I know enough already. As much as Christian fundies have discredited that mode of operation by knowing nothing about their objects of protest except a few ignorant talking points, one can both know enough about a work to have a valid opinion of it AND refuse to acquaint oneself with that work beyond a certain point.
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Postby FourthBase » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:10 pm

orz wrote:
Those comics are subversive satire? For what...5-10% of the comics-loving anti-war intellectuals who happen to be reading them? How about the other, you know, 90-95%? What are those zombie comics to THEM? If not satire, then not allegorical/metaphorical. What, then?

LOL SHEEPLE AMIRITE? :roll:

Those 90-95% (good of you to come up with such a specific statistic off the top of your elitist head!) are enjoying some fun/horrible parody superhero zombie comics for what they are without having a kneejerk moral panic about it.


Yeah I'm such a fucking elitist for trying to express it as a guesstimate percentage. Nevermind that Jeff basically said the same thing, and that's what I was responding to:

Even when those who can read the intended meaning remain few, there can be a much larger crowd who are merely entertained by its dressing of transgressions.


Would you be happier with a 15/85 split? 20/80? 25/75?
At what point does the ballpark percentage stop being elitist?

And I wonder where the line is drawn re: "those 90-95% are enjoying some _________________ for what they are without having a kneejerk moral panic about it." Oh, the myriad evil things that could go in that blank...
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Postby orz » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:15 pm

Eh, if you hadn't already noticed, despite the way it would totally pigeonhole me in my own "fundy" way, lol, I think it's either a guided conditioning OR a collective unconscious anticipation.

Well I get that you think that, but I mean, is there any evidence that there ever would be a mainstream industrial system of cannibalism!? I can see lots of people ending up eating each other in some apocalyptic collapse of civilisation, but the idea that They're planning Soylent Green for real, and are writing comics about zombies to gear up for it... I don't think so.

Also the whole point of zombies eating flesh is that it's horrible. That's why people enjoy it! The idea of being eaten alive by other humans stripped of their humanity is inherently horrifying. It's not conditioning them, they don't watch a zombie movie and think "hmm I really fancy feasting on some rotting guts right now".... If anything it would (especially since zombie movies are often critiques of consumer society) make people think twice about eating meat etc.

I appreciate your thoughts on meat etc, fair enough tho I am not a vegetarian myself. But I just think comparing a zombie comic to the work of a serial killer etc seems like an over the top emotional reaction which causes you to miss the more interesting, nuanced and subversive aspects of this subject.



ANYWAY if you guys in the US hadn't had the Comics Code we'd still have great horror, mystery, drama and non-superhero comics as a matter of course, and the world would be a better place for it. :(
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Postby orz » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:17 pm

Would you be happier with a 15/85 split? 20/80? 25/75?
At what point does the ballpark percentage stop being elitist?
It was more the context than the numbers. Anyway real statistics are bad enough without making them up.

And I wonder where the line is drawn re: "those 90-95% are enjoying some _________________ for what they are without having a kneejerk moral panic about it." Oh, the myriad evil things that could go in that blank...

Note that the kneejerk moral panic is still there. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Postby IanEye » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:18 pm

What i'm wondering is when will the US comic industry start making some comics that are, you know, NOT ABOUT SUPERHEROS!?



I would argue that DCs' Swamp Thing is not a Super Hero per se.
I am also speaking of the mid 80s era Swamp Thing, back when Steve Bissette was doing the artwork, i haven't read it recently. Maybe he is more of a typical Super Hero now.

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http://www.srbissette.com/eatyou.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swamp_Thing
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Postby FourthBase » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:22 pm

If anything it would (especially since zombie movies are often critiques of consumer society) make people think twice about eating meat etc.


For ten seconds, max. :lol:

Then it's right back to salivating over Outback Steakhouse commercials which feature meat porn, sizzling chunks of flesh that to the eyes may as well be sliced from a human being.

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Postby JoseFreitas » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:25 pm

I pondered a while whether I'd post on this thread or not, since I've been involved with the comics business for awhile and I always post under my real name. I've decided I should post, so here goes. I won't cite names of people I know or have talked to.

I've been involved in comics publishing since pretty much late 98. In this period, and especially from 2001 to 2005 I've met and talked to most of the big names in comics, including managers, writers, artists etc... so I can reasonably claim that I know the people and companies. This doesn't mean I'd necessarily see or detect the big conspiracy, but still....

Basically, there are a few big trends that help explain editorial decisions over the last few years. These trends can be pretty much summed up as "I'm waiting for the trade" and "We make a lot more money selling rights to the movie industry". Over the last decade or more, comics sales have been falling catastrophically. The fact that the last 5 years have been more stable and have produced a few best-selling titles (apparently) shouldn't obscure the fact that back in the early 90's a best-selling title would sell >500.000 and could reach more than a million copies, whereas now the Marvel leading titles are probably at 90-120.000 copies.

Times have changed, and there are many reasons for this, I won't go into them. But one fact is undeniable: the number of readers willing to shell out 3$ for about 22 pgs of story and then wait for a month before getting the next installment is falling. A lot of readers now prefer to wait for the trade, the book that will compile 5-10 comics into an easy to read 15$ package. This is a vicious circle, since the fact that the trade is coming out in less than a year creates a motivation for more readers to drop out of the monthly title. If you're a Marvel reader you're going to still pretty much be able to buy a trade a month if you want to, what with all the series.... There are a number of industry and production reasons that make it so that comics publishers still need the monthly comic and cannot afford to drop it. This is especially true of the Big Two (Marvel and DC).

The second factor has to do with the fact that the comics industry is becoming the darling of the movie industry, kind of its "idea incubator" and a lot of comics artists know this, and know that they can get a lot more money out of the movie rights, even if the movie never gets made, than from the actual comic. What does this mean? That a lot of creators would rather commit to working on projects where they retain the rights rather than on projects where they work for hire (like typically is the case with Marvel and DC, although there are exceptions). So the Big Two end up having to shell out more money for the big talent to work for them and having to fight for that talent with exclusive contracts and all the works. A friend, a US well-known artist/writer, likes to go looking for less well known artists for projects, publish them with a deal with a smaller publisher, and then sell the option rights to the movie version. This means that some studio pays a lot of money (from a comics artist point of view, peanuts for the studio or movie agent) to retain the exclusive right to buy the rights themselves in the future (typically 2-5 years); if he doesn't buy the rights, the artist gets them back and can then sell them again. My friend has sold the options to the same comic book story three times, each time for c.15.000$, more than he ever made on the actual writing of it. The movie was never made, but a bunch of executive in movie productions paid him about 45.000$ over a period of about 6 years to insure no one else would buy the rights, if they ever wanted them!

This is the reality at the Big Two: they're in a war for talent and for the dwindling readership of monthly comics. Whereas the market for trades and graphic novels has been growing steadily over the years as these books break into normal, general readership bookstores. DC is doing quite well for a long time in this, and Marvel couldn't get its act together for years and years, despising first the trades, then doing them badly and only now doing the right. Lots of small publishers have done well out of this, and the readership of comics, the initial pool of clients in the direct specialized market, has fragmented over the years, at the same time as seemingly fewer kids get into comics. So people who were reading Spidey 15 years ago have moved on to other comic books, probably published only as books.

What does all this mean?

It means the fight for a regular stream of bestselling titles that can keep the entire apparatus of the big two moving on and justifiable to the shareholders is getting meaner and meaner. This means bigger and bolder storylines for readers who are a lot more adult and jaded than they used to be. It means also Marvel needs more of this since they're trailing in graphic novels (although doing very well in movies), and to break into territory that is dominated by DC, Dark Horse and even smaller, minor publishers (Fantagraphics, Top Shelf et. al.) they need.... Captain America killed, zombie super-heroes, death and mayhem and shock value. Everybody does this, but Marvel does it bigger and bolder. And in the end, what do they care about the readers? Marvel is NO LONGER A PUBLISHER, it is a media company, producing and financing their own movies, and they look upon comics just as the laboratory where they incubate their stuff - and where they're fighting the first line of their battle with DC.

So, in the end I would say a lot of this is driven primarily by the business dynamics of this industry, which is pretty much an industry that knows, in the medium term, they're dead. Especially for the big ones. Comics will continue to fall in sales. The Big Two won't really be able to transition to a point where they can afford to publish the trades without having done the comics. An entire generation already knows exactly who Spider-Man, Superman or Batman are, and THEY HAVE NEVER READ A COMIC, they just watched the movies or played the games. Pretty soon, the Big Two will see that whether they publish comics or not is irrelevant to the franchise. They will license the comics to some other, smaller publisher, and get into a lot of other problems, but that's another story.

Of course, this doesn't mean that the "memes" being published and used by the Big Two aren't significant, but I'd be wary of attributing too much "intentionality" to them. The movies would be a way better way of doing it, than a medium that seems condemned in the near to average term, at least for the Big Two. Also, it's true that the vast majority of comic book artists outside of the Big Two tend to be left wing or liberal.

Watchmen was in a way Alan Moore's way of telling readers why the superhero comic story is actually impossible. The entire idea behind it can be found at the end in the quote: Quid Custodiet ipsos custodes? Who Watches the Watchmen?

I'm surprised no one mentioned my favorite zombie comic book: The Walking Dead.

-------------------------------------------------------

October top selling comics: (source www.Icv2.com)

1 NEW AVENGERS #35 111,481
2 FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #24 110,405
3 JUSTICE LEAGUE O/AMERICA 101,763
4 MIGHTY AVENGERS #5 99,544
5 JUSTICE SOCIETY O/AMERICA #10* 99,424
6 X-MEN MESSIAH COMPLEX ONE SHOT MC 98,958
7 BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER #7 94,144
8 MARVEL ZOMBIES 2 #1 (Of 5) 92,587
9 UNCANNY X-MEN #491 85,638
10 WOLVERINE #58* 83,810

-------------------------------------------------
Also:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/11576.html

Marvel's Strong Q3 Sends Stock Soaring
Net Income Nearly Triples
November 05, 2007

Driven largely by licensing revenues created by the release of Spider-Man 3, Marvel reported a net income of $36.3 million for the third quarter compared with just $13.2 million in Q3 2006. Marvel's strong Q3 performance beat Wall St. estimates and sent the price of Marvel's stock soaring by 17%. Though licensing was the prime mover, Marvel's other segments also flourished in the third quarter. Publishing, where sales increased from $30.9 million in Q3 2006 to $34.9, managed to maintain its momentum thanks to strong performances from World War Hulk and Stephen King's Dark Tower; while in the toy category sales declined but profits nearly doubled as Marvel continued its transition from toy producer to licensor.

Marvel's joint venture licensing program with Sony for Spider-Man 3 contributed over $24 million during the quarter (versus .8 million in Q3 2006) and the settlement of various audit claims added $16.8 million. Overages (licensing fees paid in addition to the up front licensing advances for sales over and above agreed upon goals) totaled a whopping $24.1 million for the quarter -- a good indication that the Spider-Man property is alive and well.

In a conference call to industry analysts Marvel Vice Chairman Peter Cuneo noted that
Marvel's core businesses such as publishing, which are largely unaffected by movie releases
, continued to show substantial steady growth. Marvel raised its estimates for earnings on individual shares for 2007 to $1.60-$1.65, and forecast 2008 earnings of between $1.30 and $1.50 per share, though Marvel's 2008 estimate does not include any revenue from the company's two self-produced movies, Iron Man & Hulk 2, both of which will debut next year.

Marvel disclosed that it had spent $186 million so far in 2007 (from its "risk-free" line of credit -- see "Marvel Gets Financing") on the production of movies. Principal photography on Iron Man is over, and filming on the Hulk 2 will wrap up in two weeks.

---------------------------------------------------

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?art ... mic_boooks

America's superheroes take on preemptive war, torture, warrantless spying, and George W. himself.

Julian Sanchez | November 9, 2007

A superhero killed the president this summer. Moments later, a shocked White House press corps watched as John Horus, his gleaming white-and-gold costume still soaked in blood, explained why. Because "the war in Iraq is illegal and predicated on lies," because "our people and theirs are dying for corporate gain," because of the "use of torture by our elected authorities," and because the president "stole the last two elections," the most powerful member of the Seven Guns could no longer "stand by while this administration commits crimes." In response, a terrified government imposed martial law, launching a nationwide manhunt for Horus' estranged teammates, whose reactions to the act ranged from horror to sympathy.

That bit of propaganda-by-the-deed launched acclaimed British scribe Warren Ellis' Black Summer, an eight-issue comic book miniseries from Avatar Press. And though heroes at industry giants DC Comics and Marvel have shown more restraint -- even after Superman's Lex Luthor won the Oval Office in 2000 -- the post–September 11 era has seen an explosion of politically themed storylines in mainstream as well as independent comics. While real-world presidential candidates invoke supercop Jack Bauer, of the TV series 24, as a guide to national security policy, a more nuanced debate about preemptive war, warrantless surveillance, and the responsibility that comes with great power is taking place in an illustrated universe.

In one sense, this is nothing new. The very first issue of Captain America (1941) showed the star-spangled super-soldier punching out Adolf Hitler, prompting criticism from both Nazi sympathizers and those who considered der Führer Europe's problem. Superman and Batman hawked war bonds while facing down monstrous racist caricatures of buck-toothed Japs. Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns and Alan Moore's Watchmen -- works that transformed comics in 1986 by proving that illustrated tales of men in tights could be serious, adult art -- were both steeped in their Cold War milieu. (Moore took his title from the Roman poet Juvenal's famous query about political power: "Who watches the watchmen?")

Nevertheless, the politically inspired stories of the "War on Terror" era have been remarkable not only for their ubiquity and sophistication, but also in the way they have exposed -- and sometimes exploded -- the political ideas embedded in the superhero genre itself. A famous 2002 cover of the German news magazine Der Spiegel depicted members of the Bush cabinet dressed as Rambo, Batman, Conan the Barbarian, and the "warrior princess" Xena, suggesting that neoconservatism is just comic-book logic applied to international affairs. But the efforts of comics writers to grapple with current events raise a corollary question: Is the superhero a natural neocon?

Probably the most widely read of the recent crop of political comics has been Marvel's "Civil War," a massive 2006–2007 crossover story line spanning the company's main superhero titles. The story begins when the members of a young team of C-list heroes get a bit too big for their spandex and challenge a group of powerful supervillains living incognito in Stamford, Connecticut. The ensuing battle leaves more than 600 civilians dead, and public outcry prompts the hasty passage of the Superhuman Registration Act, which requires costumed heroes to be trained and licensed -- and to disclose their secret identities to the government. The "powered community," heroic and villainous alike, is riven by the act: Iron Man and the Fantastic Four's stretchable supergenius Reed Richards rally support for registration, while Captain America goes rogue and begins building a dissident underground. The stand-in for the conflicted reader in this debate is Spider-Man, who is initially so convinced of the wisdom of registration that he unmasks on national television. When he sees the extradimensional Guantanamo being built to house resisters, however, he defects with a dramatic speech about the folly of trading liberty for security.

As the Abu Ghraib scandal unfolded in the news pages in 2004, the DC Comics universe found itself in the throes of Identity Crisis, in which it is revealed that a cabal of heroes affiliated with the Justice League superteam had been tampering with the memories of captured baddies to protect their own identities. An outraged Batman, who discovers that his own memory has been altered to cover up these acts, begins tracking superhumans via a vast satellite surveillance network -- which, naturally, falls into the wrong hands. Meanwhile, the Arab antihero Black Adam overthrows the tyrannical leader of "Khandaq," then kills the entire population of Bialya in retaliation for a terrorist attack on his country.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about these stories is why they fail. For as much as they seek to tease out the complexity and moral ambiguity of their themes, the authors of most of these tales clearly mean to convey a liberal or civil libertarian message. So much so that in 2003, the Foundation for Defense of Democracies released a screed titled "The Betrayal of Captain America," by right-wing pundit Michael Medved, decrying leftist infiltration of comics; that same year, professional bluenose Brent Bozell of the Media Research Center condemned Superman as a Ba'athist sympathizer. Yet when these stories go beyond leftish imitations of a previous generation's simplistic propaganda comics, the allegories tend to collapse under the weight of their own internal contradictions. There are, of course, openly conservative comics -- ranging from the ludicrous Liberality for All (starring a cyborg Sean Hannity!) to Bill Willingham's brilliantly layered Fables. But there is often a strong (if unintended) neoconservative subtext even in stories by left-leaning authors.

The "Civil War" storyline may provide the clearest illustration of this. The Superhero Registration Act is a straightforward analogue of the USA PATRIOT Act; the rhetoric of its opponents could have been cribbed from an ACLU brief. But under scrutiny, their civil libertarian arguments turn out to hold very little water in the fictional context. The "liberty" the act infringes is the right of well-meaning masked vigilantes, many wielding incredible destructive power, to operate unaccountably, outside the law -- a right no sane society recognizes. In one uneasy scene, an anti-registration hero points out that the law would subject heroes to lawsuits filed by those they apprehend. In another, registered hero Wonder Man is forced to wait several whole minutes for approval before barging into a warehouse full of armed spies from Atlantis. Protests about the law's threat to privacy ring a bit hollow coming from heroes accustomed to breaking into buildings, reading minds, or peering through walls without bothering to obtain search warrants. Captain America bristles at the thought of "Washington … telling us who the supervillains are," but his insistence that heroes must be "above" politics amounts to the claim that messy democratic deliberation can only hamper the good guys' efforts to protect America. The putative dissident suddenly sounds suspiciously like Director of National Intelligence Mitch McConnell defending warrantless spying.

The problem of modern terrorism -- how to deal with small groups of individuals who can wreak the kind of destruction that once required an army -- is familiar territory for comics, as is the idea that heroes often inadvertently create their own worst enemies. Yet attempts to directly address the problem of blowback from military action exhibit the same sort of ambiguity. In the second volume of Marvel's Ultimates (2004–2007) -- a reimagined version of the classic Avengers superteam -- the heroes are being used to carry out covert military missions abroad. Their foreign interventions prompt governments hostile to the U.S. to send their own superteam ("persons of mass destruction" wryly dubbed "The Liberators") to invade Washington. After the inevitable victory, The Ultimates decide they must operate independently of the U.S. government, but the lesson remains that "the world needs looking after," presumably by the same mostly American heroes.

These mixed messages shouldn't be blamed (solely) on the comics' creators, though. As John Shelton Lawrence and Robert Jewett argue in their book The Myth of the American Superhero, the premises of the genre itself demand that "total power must be pictured as totally benign, transmuting lawless vigilantism into a perfect embodiment of law enforcement." The hero, possessed of moral clarity, solves problems by force, yet (usually) without killing. Evil is depicted as personal rather than institutional: The problem is not that power is wielded by a small elite, but that the wrong people -- supervillains -- sometimes get powers. And when the only tool you have is Thor's hammer, every problem looks like a supervillain. Super-heroes don't form PACs; they have slugfests, because the narrative of the superheroic redeemer demands that more prosaic means of conflict resolution -- diplomacy, say -- prove ineffectual.

The simplest way for writers to escape the embedded politics of superheroism, of course, is by ditching the tights entirely. Brian K. Vaughan makes this rejection explicit by having Mitchell Hundred, the protagonist of Ex Machina, abandon his costumed identity as the hapless Great Machine to serve his fellow New Yorkers as mayor. And there are many spandex-free depictions of war in comics. Vaughan's simple but moving Pride of Baghdad follows a group of lions freed from an Iraqi zoo during an American bombing. (The liberated animals are eventually shot by frightened Coalition forces.) Rick Veitch lampoons the romanticization of war in Army @ Love, in which a Huxleyan Department of Motivation and Morale entices soldiers to fight in "Afbaghistan" by making conflict sexy and fun. Others, such as Brian Wood in DMZ and Anthony Lappé in Shooting War, illustrate the old adage that "when war is declared, truth is the first casualty" by following journalists into spin-riddled battle zones.

Yet however much some writers may lament the popular identification of comics with superhero tales, it is no accident: Iconic characters demand a medium that deals in icons, and their privileged place in the American Zeitgeist has given them a mythic narrative power that storytellers are loath to forsake, even as they seek to tame the genre's fascist undertones. Some film adaptations of comic book tales -- notably Superman Returns, V for Vendetta, and the first two Spider-Man films -- have attempted to democratize their protagonist by creating populist moments in which ordinary citizens must band together to save the hero. But rather than conveying a message of democratic empowerment, these scenes typically have more than a whiff of übermench-as-embodiment-of-the-volk about them.

Mainstream titles increasingly feature stories in which the traditional Manichaeism of the genre is countered by pitting heroes against each other rather than villains, emphasizing how evil can arise from well-intentioned efforts to use coercive power for good ends: "Civil War" falls into this camp, as does DC's Infinite Crisis (2005–2006), in which a group of erstwhile heroes discover that their scheme to remake the universe into a utopia has transformed them into monsters. Other titles, following in the tradition of Watchmen, create doubly allegorical worlds populated by close analogues of the classic DC stable of heroes, then use them to explode or detourn the tropes of conventional superhero comics.

The failures and successes alike show that if comics are to succeed as modern political allegory, comics writers cannot simply transplant real controversies into their fictional worlds. They also face the daunting task of inventing a grammar and a vocabulary for a new sort of superhero narrative -- one capable of telling us that, sometimes, great power comes with the responsibility to not use it.

Julian Sanchez is a writer based in Washington, D.C., and a contributing editor for Reason magazine.
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Postby FourthBase » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:25 pm

Also the whole point of zombies eating flesh is that it's horrible. That's why people enjoy it! The idea of being eaten alive by other humans stripped of their humanity is inherently horrifying. It's not conditioning them, they don't watch a zombie movie and think "hmm I really fancy feasting on some rotting guts right now"....


So then why don't people watch more simulated child rape porn?
That's horrifying too. Or is not as "inherently" horrifying? I don't get it.
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Postby JoseFreitas » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:31 pm

For good non-superheroes comics I would recommend:

100 Bullets, Fables, The Walking Dead, Courtney Crumrin', Conan, Hellblazer and lots of other regular series. Just look in the catalogues of any publisher except DC or Marvel (but you can look in DC's imprint Vertigo). And of course, it's always good to go back and reread From Hell or Sandman.
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Postby orz » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:32 pm

Jose, thanks for that really interesting post! Good to read some real insight into comics instead of the usual outside analysis.

ForthBase, please. :roll: We're just arging at cross purposes here and if you are really making that dumb, insulting and immoral comparison then I can't even be bothered to talk to you any more.
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Bissette's Zombies

Postby IanEye » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:33 pm

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Postby FourthBase » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:41 pm

orz wrote:ForthBase, please. :roll: We're just arging at cross purposes here and if you are really making that dumb, insulting and immoral comparison then I can't even be bothered to talk to you any more.


Excuse me? :?

I didn't realize that there was any relative moral high ground for "being eaten alive by other humans stripped of their humanity". I thought "the whole point of zombies eating flesh is that it's horrible" and "that's why people enjoy it", so why do people not enjoy watching equally-revolting simulated acts? I thought that was a fair question.
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
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Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:46 pm

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"but I do know that you should remove my full name from your sig. Dig?" - Unnamed, Super Scary Persun, bbrrrrr....
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Postby orz » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:47 pm

If you have to ask, you'll never know. :)

Seriously, I'm not answering a rhetorical question. Sorry if anything in my posts was unclear; please forget what I wrote and just assume I had a coherent point and was right about it. Thanks.
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Postby FourthBase » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:56 pm

Hey man, I don't have an answer to it either. It's not rhetorical.

But it is a tough question to answer, isn't it?
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