But where did the Twin Towers go to so quickly?

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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri May 16, 2008 7:52 am

stefano wrote:I'm with barracuda - this is a complete waste of energy. It was a conspiracy, anyone who's spent a half an hour thinking about it agrees. But arguing about CD or no CD is playing into the hands of the people who did it. Hence the disinfo. Keeping this argument going is a way to keep intelligent, ethical people shackled to computer keyboards where they can be monitored and their impact be kept to a minimum.

It's also pretty offensive that 9/11 has this reputations as 'the crime of the century' when a country has been invaded and destroyed in the meantime. Why is the murder of 4 000 Americans of so much more consequence than the murder of a million Iraqis and the forced migration of two million more? That also irritated me on that other thread, when people were going on about black magic, talking about the event like it was some momentous thing that the forces of evil had been conspiring to make happen for fucking eons. Never mind Hiroshima, forget Falluja, buddy, when Americans die it's huge. Not just any Americans, mind you, ones wearing suits. Oh, the horror! We must never forget!


Yeah I agree with pretty much everything you have said.

911 is irrelevant and a big energy suck and the people who are promoting 911 Truth are wasting time and energy.

Sorry guys.

The simple fact remains that everything that followed 911 was bullshit.

If people hd focussed on stopping the bullshit all this 911 stuff would have still been there and still been as obvious, and could have been followed up on. But the dismantling of democracy worldwide, (whatever sham it may be in practice, the laws on the books, the constitutional protections and the ancient legal principles actually mean something,) happened afterward and involved issues independant of 911.

If only people had listened to Bill Hicks...
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Postby orz » Fri May 16, 2008 8:25 am

Quite.

All the characterstics of demolition.

= building fell down.
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Postby stefano » Fri May 16, 2008 8:30 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:Most of us wouldn't know shit if we hadn't spent time "shackled to our keyboards" and then spending some time passing on what we've learned is CRUCIAL to institutionalizing having figured out these spook bastards control games.


Yes I know, I actually wasn't sure how to word that because I've learned most of what I know about politics on the internet. I'm absolutely not saying we should stop doing this, keeping a discussion going, but I think threads like this one are repetitive and sterile. This is a board where every fact about 9/11 has been typed up repeatedly. Leverage in '9/11 truth' is in talking to people who don't know what LIHOP stands for.

Where can this 9/11 truth thing go, now? Another few dozen books and movies? Will the next Oliver Stone make a film about it in 2034? I really think it's too late for the facts about 9/11 to really matter, especially when so much else has gone down in broad daylight since.
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Postby DrVolin » Fri May 16, 2008 3:58 pm

1a. Free fall

In all videos available, I make the collapses at closer to about 15 seconds. Video based observations have a large error. The seismic observations tend to agree with the 13-15 second estimate (http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysi ... efall.html). In any case, all available videos show material falling faster than the overall collapse. That is, some material is ahead of the collapse, and at the level of intact floors. By definition then, the buildings did not collapse at free fall speed. But the question remains, how much more slowly should they have fallen in the absence of cutting charges? I don't think there is a clear answer to this question

1b. Design for aircraft impact

I don't think any of the designers were bold enough to claim that the towers could "easily" withstand an aircraft impact. They did claim that the WTC was designed to resist an impact by a Boeing 707 (116 570 kg max take-off weight). While the designers don't mention speed in the interviews and quotes I have seen, they might have been thinking in terms of normal cruising speed (900 km/h).

By contrast, the 767 has a max take-off weight of 179 170 kg, and with a max level speed of 1000 km/h, can be expected to have been flying faster when they hit the towers. They could have been flying as fast as 1200 km/h, just under Mach. The difference in energy between the 707 and 767 impacts is important.

2) See 1a.

3) Falling too fast

This is a much more important problem than that of the free-fall. I think it is fairly well established that the towers did not in fact collapse at free-fall speed. But did they collapse too fast? And if so why? All the work of which I am aware in this area studies the towers as designed, rather than as built, or even as they existed in 2001. First, given that the problems of corruption in the construction industry in NY/NJ in the 60's and 70's are so well known, it is suprising that we don't immediately suspect the towers collapsed too far because they were built below specs. Second, the towers may not have been as strong in 2001 as they were when built. Any complex system generates unintended consequences, and the towers may have been weakened over time in ways that we still don't (and probably never will) understand.

At the moment, there seems to be too much information missing to decide whether the towers fell to fast, or how much faster than could have been expected.

4) How did tons of concrete and all the building contents, including many human bodies, get turned into particulate matter?

This is far from convincingly established. First, there are obviously non-particulate elements seen in the collapse videos. Second, post-collapse pictures and video of the debris show many large chunks of metal and concrete. But lets not forget the awesome amount of potential energy that was suddenly turned into kinetic energy by the collapses. How much energy was required to produce the amount of concrete dust produced? Since we have no clear idea of what proportion of the concrete was ground into particles, and since we don't know how much energy was released, any statements about particulate matter can't be treated as strong evidence. Not to mention the problem of design vs building.

5) How did tons of this debris complete with tons of steel beams get projected horizontally hundreds of feet to form a 1200 foot-wide concentric debris field?

This is where we start hitting some contradictions. If the towers collapsed at free fall speed, and the path of greatest resistance was cleared by cutting charges, why was material being projected horizontally? We would expect material to be projected out horizontally precisely if the vertical path was blocked, at least partially. Some of the energy of the towers was clearly being expended in the horizontal ejection of material, before it overwhelmed the vertical resistance. This argues against the presence of cutting charges or other forms of CD.

A second important contradiction: The towers cannot simultaneously have been collapsed into their own footprint by CD and have created a 1200 foot wide concentric debris field.

6) Why do photographs and videos of the destruction of the Twin Towers show this rapid high-energy ejection of tons of debris quite clearly, not from "fuzzy" or "doctored" sources?

See 5.

7a impossible temperatures

Burning is one of those complex processes. Prehistoric furnaces with natural induction allowed the smelting of iron, which requires at least 1535 C. It isn't hard to imagine a natural furnace effect taking place in the WTC pre-collapse.

7b aluminium

The intriguing footage of flowing metal, as far as I have seen, shows flows that originate not far below the impact points. I don't see how aircraft aluminium can absolutely be ruled out. Significant quantities of other metals with low melting points could easily have been kept in the WTC offices for various reasons: Gold (1064 C), copper (1084 C). I also wonder whether some executive washrooms didn't have significant quantities of brass (Cu/Zn alloy). Most brasses, depending on the proportion of zinc, have a comparatively low melting point.

8. pools of molten metal

That is a mystery, no doubt. But coal fires have been known to burn for decades at very hot temperatures after mine explosions, so this is not unprecedented.

9) Why was the exact chemical signature of thermite found in the WTC dust spead over NYCity?

I need to look into this more.

10) Why was the exact chemical signature of thermite found in cooled molten material in debris attached to steel beams sent off as memorials and also on areas of the steel beams that were not cut by acetlyne torch?

see 9

11) Why were there massive steel beams curved without fractures as can only happen under thousands of degrees of heat like the 4500 f. that thermite burns at?

Comustion is not the only source of heat. Pressure also generates heat. I think we can agree that very high pressures were generated by the collapses.

12) Why were iron-rich spheroids found in the WTC dust? These can only be created by molten metal turned into a spray of micro-droplets with massive energy.

"Can only be created by" is a bad start for a scientific argument. One can't rule out that there exists alternative mechanisms for the production of an outcome. "Cannot be the result of" is a much better start. I'd be more impressed with this claim if a range of alternatives were also examined and ruled out.

13) Why did hundreds of first responders report that they heard and felt bombs in the WTC before it came down and just before and during its destruction?

They certainly heard explosions. That is, they heard sudden releases of energy. That isn't surprising, given that massive towers were in the early stages of collapse. Literally, something had to pop for those towers to come down. Whether those sudden energy releases were caused by bombs is quite a different question, and the witnesses were probably not in a position to answer it. If you've ever spent a very cold night near a large lake, you know exactly what I mean.
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Postby 8bitagent » Fri May 16, 2008 6:00 pm

I find it so bizarre people keep trying to claim 9/11 was just blowback and incompetence

We know the Clinton and Bush administration blocked FBI agents from stopping the flight school hijackers, al Qaeda financiers, terror charities, etc

We know the neocons covered for high level Saudi and Pakistani involvement

We know the Saudis funded the hijacker's through a Bush owned bank

We know Rumsfeld was caught on tape calling for new 9/11 attacks

Aw, but the "incompetence" and "blowback" meme...yes....

Listen to this recently released short clip of Rumsfeld saying how
they, the neocons, desperately need a 9/11 event:
http://prisonplanet.com/audio/160508clip1.mp3
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Postby 8bitagent » Fri May 16, 2008 6:05 pm

stefano wrote:I'm with barracuda - this is a complete waste of energy. It was a conspiracy, anyone who's spent a half an hour thinking about it agrees. But arguing about CD or no CD is playing into the hands of the people who did it. Hence the disinfo. Keeping this argument going is a way to keep intelligent, ethical people shackled to computer keyboards where they can be monitored and their impact be kept to a minimum.

It's also pretty offensive that 9/11 has this reputations as 'the crime of the century' when a country has been invaded and destroyed in the meantime. Why is the murder of 4 000 Americans of so much more consequence than the murder of a million Iraqis and the forced migration of two million more? That also irritated me on that other thread, when people were going on about black magic, talking about the event like it was some momentous thing that the forces of evil had been conspiring to make happen for fucking eons. Never mind Hiroshima, forget Falluja, buddy, when Americans die it's huge. Not just any Americans, mind you, ones wearing suits. Oh, the horror! We must never forget!


The POINT is, WITHOUT 9/11 NONE of the deaths you're talking about in Iraq, AS WELL AS PLEASE LET's NOT FORGET: AFGHANISTAN,
nor all the other abuses going on would not have happened...would not have had the pretext.

Also, talking about the pathology/ideologies of those who most likely pulled off 9/11, who were merely using al Qaeda; is not idiotic. That's like if detectives were told not to look into the esoteric aspect of the Zodiac or Son of Sam, or Nightstalker cases.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri May 16, 2008 7:52 pm

8bitagent wrote:The POINT is, WITHOUT 9/11 NONE of the deaths you're talking about in Iraq, AS WELL AS PLEASE LET's NOT FORGET: AFGHANISTAN,
nor all the other abuses going on would not have happened...would not have had the pretext.


I seem to remember the plans for th Afghanistan invasion being leaked online in June or July of that year. Now obviously those events are intertwined so possibly that means nothing.

BUT the pretext of 911 as justification for all the abuse of people and constitutions and countries thats happened since? No that is actually a failure of people to stop their governments acting tyrannically.

No one (or group) said "Yeah I know 911 is shocking and tragic but we are better than responding with Torture, Patriot Acts and wholesale violence against whoever we lease." Loudly enough and with enough conviction to bring the rest with them.

Now if the 911 Truth movement had focused solely on that, and said "we don't trust your 911 explanation anyway BUT this is more important. We won't let this be an excuse for tyranny," it could have really been an effective base of resistance to all the dodgy stuff that followed.
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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Sat May 17, 2008 4:50 am

Joe Hillshoist wrote:.....
BUT the pretext of 911 as justification for all the abuse of people and constitutions and countries thats happened since? No that is actually a failure of people to stop their governments acting tyrannically.

The Congress were the bastards who handed over the Constitution to keep another Twin Towers apocalypse scene from happening.

That single event, the murder of 3000 people in one hour, is what has been used to justify 'preventing it from happening again.'

So the culpability for the Twin Towers destruction is the KEY to putting the brakes on this mess. That's why it is critical to expose that crime for what it was, a clever inside job. This will never be admitted but it can chill power to know we know.

No one (or group) said "Yeah I know 911 is shocking and tragic but we are better than responding with Torture, Patriot Acts and wholesale violence against whoever we lease." Loudly enough and with enough conviction to bring the rest with them.

Joe, CIA and weapon makers run the US mainstream media.

There was no way to compete with their psy-ops programs designed to guarantee resource wars as part of the US economy.

The US is still half slave and half free but the dividing line is now awareness of how the media is the government.[/quote]
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Postby Iroquois » Sat May 17, 2008 12:45 pm

From thegovernmentflu:
In order to initiate a demolition from the point of the planes' impact to make it appear that the crashes caused structural failure, there had to have been explosives present at or near the impact site of the planes. Somehow the planes hit and didn't set off these explosives?


Allow me to introduce you to the M830-HEAT-MP-T 120mm tank cartridge.

Image

It's propellent subjects its high explosive projectile to a peak chamber pressure of 69,600 psi at 70 degrees Fahrenheit and accelerates it to a velocity of 3,740 ft/sec with just 208.7 inches of barrel.* Not to mention, there's a fair amount of heat involved as well, both from the explosion of the propellent as well as friction with the barrel initially and with the air later in its trajectory. Yet, the round, with a high degree of reliability, does not detonate prematurely.

Source: http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/weapon/M256.html

The explosives near the impact site could have been similarly hardened and either soldered or chemically bonded to support structures. If the member they were attached to was so badly damaged from the impact of the plane that it was dislodged, its job was done for it anyway.

And, as long as detonation was done wirelessly, it would still not be found intact by rescue or salvage workers later.

*For extra credit, assuming a constant rate of acceleration along the length of the barrel, calculate the force applied to the projectile in units of gravity.
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Postby Eldritch » Sat May 17, 2008 12:53 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:
8bitagent wrote:The POINT is, WITHOUT 9/11 NONE of the deaths you're talking about in Iraq, AS WELL AS PLEASE LET's NOT FORGET: AFGHANISTAN,
nor all the other abuses going on would not have happened...would not have had the pretext.


I seem to remember the plans for th Afghanistan invasion being leaked online in June or July of that year.


Me too.

In fact, the weekend before 9/11, CNN did a much-hyped special on the Taliban. I thought this strange at the time, since CNN wasn't adequately covering even domestic stories in those days.

(Who am I kidding? CNN isn't adequately covering anything—even today!)
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Postby Iroquois » Sat May 17, 2008 1:21 pm

DrVolin,

I agree with you on the approximate collapse durations of about 15 seconds. The shorter collapse durations originated with FEMA, Dr. Eagar, and the 9/11 Commission Report. They arise from the understandable need to keep the entirety of the collapses within the bounds of their seismic signatures, not just the durations of the impacts of the debris falling outside the footprints, something difficult to explain without explosives.

See: http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/demo ... ismic.html

The maintaining of the mass of the collapses of WTC1 and WTC2 within the footprint of the towers is also more necessary to progressive collapse theories than to assisted collapse theories. That mass of the upper floors falling onto the lower floors and thereby massively overcoming their structural limits is the essence of the progressive collapse theories. Not only does the likelihood of collapse continuation drop the more mass falls outside of the footprint of the building, so does the problematic conservation of momentum equations. I believe Dr. Greening, in his oft cited paper arguing that conservation of momentum can be maintained in the observed collapses if the mechanism is purely progressive, maintains that 100% of the mass stayed within the footprint of the buildings during the collapses. He also bases his equation each of the floors and their supporting structures, from the 1st to the 110th, having exactly the same mass. But, that's an issues of a different sort.

When assisted collapse theorists point to the free fall speed collapse durations of WTC1 and WTC2 and their debris falling into their own footprints, they are exposing contradictions in the progressive collapse theories, not in their own.
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Postby orz » Sat May 17, 2008 1:46 pm

debris falling into their own footprints,

did not happen
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Postby DrVolin » Sat May 17, 2008 1:52 pm

Just for the record: I agree that the collapses are fishy, but for none of the reasons that Hugh mentions. I think at least some of those are deliberate red herrings.

I agree with you that there are some serious contradictions. The seismic record, so far as I can see, provides the only solid evidence that something might be wrong with the plane impact-only theory.

The other piece of evidence is more circumstancial, but to me much stronger: Three different patterns of damage with three different causes (two more similar than the third) caused very similar outcomes. That is very surprising to me. The first likely explanation is that there is some important factor that is common to all three events. Criminally inadequate implementation of all three designs is one obvious candidate, but by no means the only one. Since that one is currently impossible to properly evaluate, I would next try to rule out the mini-nuke theory.

But again, I think there are much more important things to do than argue about CD details. Such as trace the roots of 9/11 to 1945 and beyond.
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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Sat May 17, 2008 3:49 pm

DrVolin wrote:.....
The seismic record, so far as I can see, provides the only solid evidence that something might be wrong with the plane impact-only theory.


False.
There are a multitude of things in contradiction with the NIST's 'fire-caused-pancake-collapse' nonsense.

The other piece of evidence is more circumstancial, but to me much stronger: Three different patterns of damage with three different causes (two more similar than the third) caused very similar outcomes. That is very surprising to me. The first likely explanation is that there is some important factor that is common to all three events.

"Some important factor that is common to all three events" are multitudes of evidence of demolition.

Criminally inadequate implementation of all three designs is one obvious candidate, but by no means the only one. Since that one is currently impossible to properly evaluate, I would next try to rule out the mini-nuke theory.


Mini-nukes? Are you joking? This has long ago been ruled out.
There are clear radiological signs of nuclear bombs and none were in evidence.
There are many reasons that mini-nukes had no role at the WTC but that is sufficient.

But again, I think there are much more important things to do than argue about CD details. Such as trace the roots of 9/11 to 1945 and beyond.


False dichotomy. CD does not exclude any significant history. In fact it reinforces the many other instances of hoaxes starting wars like Pearl Harbor.

But today the emotional political significance of the criminal destruction of the Twin Towers and urban civilian casualties is unmatched by any other recent event. So is the cover-up and exploitation of this hoax.

So CD is not just one item among equals. It is the top of the cognitive pile.
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Postby Searcher08 » Sat May 17, 2008 4:05 pm

Hugh, I thought that mini-nukes HAD initially been ruled out, but there are some indications of their use such as the rolling toroidal field of the collapse, which is very non-typical of controlled demolition - compare WTC 7 (which I believe WAS CD) the two look nothing like each other.

I found the arguments about an electromagnetic pulse occuring as being pretty convincing in this article
http://www.data4science.net/essays.php?EssayID=803

I also wonder whether there may have been MULTIPLE redundancy in the operation - standard CD can go wrong sometimes (CD Bloopers :) ) but there could have been NO room for this on the 911 operation.

The amazing photos of the steel beams looking like kids toffee certainly do not look like they were crushed and pressurized to me but do look like they were exposed to uniformly high heat - that certainly does not look like the effect of thermate (though I am not ruling that out out all either)
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