Kucinich Says He's Not Giving Up

[chlamor]

Throwing in my two cents and hopefully getting us back on track.

I think we are morally obligated to do whatever is in our power to stop the criminality in this country. No matter what you feel about our politics, which are busted, degraded, mendacious, and silly WE ARE KILLING PEOPLE. It really comes down to that.

Who's "WE?"

[sunny]

Throwing in my two cents and hopefully getting us back on track.

I think we are morally obligated to do whatever is in our power to stop the criminality in this country. No matter what you feel about our politics, which are busted, degraded, mendacious, and silly WE ARE KILLING PEOPLE. It really comes down to that.

Who's "WE?"

Anybody with a brain and a functioning conscience. A better question is "what can I personally do to try and put a stop to the killing- and looting".

[chlamor]

Throwing in my two cents and hopefully getting us back on track.

I think we are morally obligated to do whatever is in our power to stop the criminality in this country. No matter what you feel about our politics, which are busted, degraded, mendacious, and silly WE ARE KILLING PEOPLE. It really comes down to that.

Who's "WE?"

Anybody with a brain and a functioning conscience. A better question is "what can I personally do to try and put a stop to the killing- and looting".

You are saying anyone with a brain and a functioning conscience are the ones "KILLING PEOPLE?" These are the "WE" that you refer to? I don't get it.

As for what can be done that's very easy. Sustained direct action and mass civil disobedience in all the big cities with smaller companion movements in numerous other smaller cities. Nothing less. Anyone who thinks otherwise, thinking for example any aspect of the political process is a worthwhile endeavor, is deluding themselves.

It would also be useful to specify what is meant by "criminality in this country" so as to understand what must be stopped.

[sunny]

You are saying anyone with a brain and a functioning conscience are the ones "KILLING PEOPLE?" These are the "WE" that you refer to? I don't get it.

Not hardly! But if we do nothing we are complicit, just as the German populace were held responsible for what the Nazi regime did as they went about their parades.

As for what can be done that's very easy. Sustained direct action and mass civil disobedience in all the big cities with smaller companion movements in numerous other smaller cities. Nothing less. Anyone who thinks otherwise, thinking for example any aspect of the political process is a worthwhile endeavor, is deluding themselves.

Absolutely, I agree with that completely. But Dennis Kucinich is making a valiant effort and should be supported, not held in contempt.

It would also be useful to specify what is meant by "criminality in this country" so as to understand what must be stopped.

Do we really need to go over the crimes our gov't has engaged in over the last decades? The killings, the thefts, the corruption, the flouting of the constitution, and the complete and utter disregard for human rights? I thought a little short hand was ok around here, considering the level of awareness.

[barracuda]

Sustained direct action and mass civil disobedience in all the big cities with smaller companion movements in numerous other smaller cities. Nothing less.

I agree, chlamor. Cancer uisually must be excised from the organism to stop its parasitic growth. Facists have never in history been removed from power in any other way besides direct action and the most extreme measures. And what we have here are among the most insideous, parasitic regimes in history, killers of millions. We are succumbing to Einstein's definition of madness.

[chlamor]

You are saying anyone with a brain and a functioning conscience are the ones "KILLING PEOPLE?" These are the "WE" that you refer to? I don't get it.

Not hardly! But if we do nothing we are complicit, just as the German populace were held responsible for what the Nazi regime did as they went about their parades.

As for what can be done that's very easy. Sustained direct action and mass civil disobedience in all the big cities with smaller companion movements in numerous other smaller cities. Nothing less. Anyone who thinks otherwise, thinking for example any aspect of the political process is a worthwhile endeavor, is deluding themselves.

Absolutely, I agree with that completely. But Dennis Kucinich is making a valiant effort and should be supported, not held in contempt.

It would also be useful to specify what is meant by "criminality in this country" so as to understand what must be stopped.

Do we really need to go over the crimes our gov't has engaged in over the last decades? The killings, the thefts, the corruption, the flouting of the constitution, and the complete and utter disregard for human rights? I thought a little short hand was ok around here, considering the level of awareness.

Looks like we are pretty much in agreement here I just wasn't clear on some of the terminology.

I'm very much interested in what people are actually doing.

We need not go over the slaughter as we are both very aware of them I only thought you might be referring to "The Bush crimes" which in my view is a narrow perception of the problem we all face.

I actually do not think Kucinich should be supported or held in contempt. It is an interesting trajectory Kucinich has taken on this. He was ardently opposed pre-2004 election. For all the wrong reasons.

At this point we are so far past any of the processes of procedural activity. It is an energy sink certain to lead to inertia. Quite simply it is a waste of time.

I spent nearly two full years involved with impeachment groups and meeting with Democratic advisers and representatives. These people are the face of the enemy.

Here locally we've got one of "the most progressive" Dems on video promising that the Dems are going to make impeachment priority number one if they get power in 2006. We've got same Hinchey figurine on video in the County Council Chambers during an intense hour-and-a-half forced meeting ranting to us why impeachment was untenable, unwise, unrealistic yada, yada, yada...

Ain't gonna happen ever. Acknowledge that and then ask "What's next?"

[tKl]

Both of you cool it because you are definitely wasting this thread.

Sunny, I had already "cooled it" by suggesting it was a waste of time to continue responding to elderly infants who insist on calling me a Nazi because I think Kucinich's brave and persistent honesty is more important than Barack Opium's pro-war blather and Pelosi's pro-money stonewalling. But you force me to respond again.

A total mischaracterization, which proves you come from the "Clamorous Ideas Inc." school of propaganda.

Sunny, don't yell at me - Mac is the one who "kept it going."

[chlamor]

Both of you cool it because you are definitely wasting this thread.

Sunny, I had already "cooled it" by suggesting it was a waste of time to continue responding to elderly infants who insist on calling me a Nazi because I think Kucinich's brave and persistent honesty is more important than Barack Opium's pro-war blather and Pelosi's pro-money stonewalling. But you force me to respond again.

A total mischaracterization, which proves you come from the "Clamorous Ideas Inc." school of propaganda.

Sunny, don't yell at me - Mac is the one who "kept it going."

Ad hominen.

More drama.

Counterproductive and intrusive.

[sunny]

So-what's next?

[tKl]

Both of you cool it because you are definitely wasting this thread.

Sunny, I had already "cooled it" by suggesting it was a waste of time to continue responding to elderly infants who insist on calling me a Nazi because I think Kucinich's brave and persistent honesty is more important than Barack Opium's pro-war blather and Pelosi's pro-money stonewalling. But you force me to respond again.

A total mischaracterization, which proves you come from the "Clamorous Ideas Inc." school of propaganda.

Sunny, don't yell at me - Mac is the one who "kept it going."

Ad hominen.

More drama.

Counterproductive and intrusive.

um, I was in a conversation with Mac, who kept it going. You twit.

[tKl]

PS when is "populistindependent" going to swoop in with a holier-than-thou political correction?

I know you're on a cyber-team, chlamor, and I know your guys' tactic is to hide that fact.

Is this who we want influencing hearts and minds? Tacticians?

[chlamor]

PS when is "populistindependent" going to swoop in with a holier-than-thou political correction?

I know you're on a cyber-team, chlamor, and I know your guys' tactic is to hide that fact.

Is this who we want influencing hearts and minds? Tacticians?

"You took a yellow Red before a White American, and that's pretty pinko!"

[compared2what?]

American politics is infantile, especially among the self-appointed Illuminati-cognoscenti. It'll end in tears, if it ever ends.

Very clever.

Soon, populistindependent will swoop in with a holier-than-thou political correction...

Heil, dude!

I haven't read the page and a half of this thread that follow the above gem, but what the fuck is your problem, tkl? MacCruiskeen is advocating for the rule of law as it is supposed to be enforced by the three branches of federal government. Are you opposed to that?

That's not a rhetorical question. I sincerely don't understand what your debate position is, if you have one.

If you're just acting out because you didn't get your way on the VP suggestion, which is what it looks like, remember your better self and cut it the fuck out. You're a bold free-thinker. We all recognize it. You don't have to resort to all this compensatory name-calling and figurative penis-pumping bullshit. Return to your senses.

[compared2what?]

Throwing in my two cents and hopefully getting us back on track.

I think we are morally obligated to do whatever is in our power to stop the criminality in this country. No matter what you feel about our politics, which are busted, degraded, mendacious, and silly WE ARE KILLING PEOPLE. It really comes down to that.

Who's "WE?"

chlamor, that would be "we, the people." I'm not trying to minimize your dissent or your activism by saying that. I'm actually trying to maximize it. Everyone has to take the responsibility you take, as Americans, in order for it meaningfully to be a government for the people, of the people, and by the people.

Maybe I don't understand your ultimate goal correctly, though. If not, I apologize in advance.

[lunarose]

hi chlamor.

"As for what can be done that's very easy. Sustained direct action and mass civil disobedience in all the big cities with smaller companion movements in numerous other smaller cities. "

there's the problem, as i see it. if this country's people didn't rise up during and after katrina, i can't see it ever happening. we're too brainwashed, obese, out of shape, lacking sleep, fed on garbage, ill-informed and incapable of sustained thought (much less action) to get it together.

mac, have you been to the usa and seen the quality of the average human being here? i think this quote from your 'pre-conquest consciousness thread really captures the experience of the average american:

" In large regions a grand cultural amnesia sometimes accompanied this collapse. Whole populations would forget even recent past events and make gross factual errors in reporting them. In some cases they even forgot what type and style of garments they had worn a few years earlier or (in New Guinea) that they had been using stone axes and eating their dead close relatives a few years back. Initially I thought they were dissimulating in an effort to ingratiate or appear up-to-date, but rejected this thought almost immediately. They were simply too unassuming and open in other respects for such a theory to hold up. And when I showed photographs I’d taken a few years earlier, they would brighten up, laugh, and eagerly call their friends as they excitedly began relating their reviving recollections." (and said recollections will speedily fall out of their heads two hours later, in my experience.)

that's the gist of usa's view of history and current events. "what happened? oh, that. that was then, this is now, we need healing, we need unity, blah blah blah...." that's why we love obama - he's mr. feel good.

it's a totally pessimistic view i'm presenting here, but it's what i see all around me (i''m in martinez california, a few miles away from walnut creek in the greater sf bay area. and that's what i see HERE, don't get me started on the central valley....(california's midwest))

taking that as a starting point, i would say food security, cleaning up the crap in the environment, and an emphasis on physical fitness and general education would be needed before the average us citizen could even grok what they needed to do. which is completely despicable considering the outrages being carried out globally in our name.