How Unspeakable Evil Becomes A Spectator Sport

[OP ED]

thank god for tkl. otherwise here we have a lot of guys talking about how awful abortion is, being the taking of 'human genetic code' (did you know you are flushing human genetic code down the sink every time you wash your hair?!?!?) while at the same time talking about how comfortable they are with the death penalty, owning guns and shooting people to death on sight. which is, ya know, ALSO the taking of human life, but the big difference is a MAN is doing it, so its completely copasetic with no moral grey zones at all.

it's starting to sound like that old argument 'let the men handle the big issues her, honey, you little women just don't have the moral weight to deal with life and death - we men just have it in our bones'. i mean please, what sexist unthinking putrid crap.

from idiots who think babies come from a woman's stomach, no less, most likely after ingesting watermelon seeds..............yep, hard to imagine a more well qualified, nuanced group of arguments gathered together in one place.

i am out of here.

It was nice of you to put words in others' mouths.

And when you wash hair down the sink, you're disposing of your own detached, non-continuous genetic code, which is, you may realize, not even remotely close to the same thing.

We could divert further into a discussion of genetics if you like. But I shouldn't think it neccessary, unless you're confused and believe that your hair is possessed of the same cytoplastic status as your offspring.

(surely you're not REALLY comparing the two, right? that was just reactionary response to frustration at the topic?)

(It would suprise me)

And I'd give guns to women too, btw. Although I'd like to thank you for making all sorts of assumptions in regards to my views on womens' inherent abilities to make personal distinctions. You've saved me the trouble of actually stating them.

Very tolerant and wise of you.

[Endomorph]

RE: abortion --

Everybody agrees that sperm and eggs aren't people. (Well, let's leave Mel Gibson out of this for the moment.)

Most people aren't aware of the fact that, in the course of ordinary human reproduction, for every normal conception there are a large number of fertilized eggs which don't implant, which means that trying to have a baby virtually guarantees the death of a number of fertilized eggs...

If they were aware of that fact, I think virtually everyone would probably agree that a fertilized egg isn't a person YET, on the grounds that we don't try to track down and save the half dozen unimplanted fertilized eggs that might occur in the course of a given couple's attempts to have a child... nor do we mourn their deaths, nor do we tell people not to try to have children because they're guaranteeing the deaths of fertilized eggs as collateral damage in the process.

So... *probably* if everyone were well informed about those facts they would at least admit that a just-fertilized but not-yet-implanted egg is probably not something we can treat as if it were a person...

But even if somebody won't grant that they'll at *least* grant that the sperm and egg which are just about to unite aren't people.

On the other end of things...

Everybody agrees that children of a normal birth are people.

So ... everybody's pretty firm on the endpoints of the continuum, nigh universal agreement there... and about the interval between the endpoints there is controversy.

Seems like something a society could come to some kind of agreement about one way or another if there weren't so much political and social capital to be made exploiting the divisions over the issue.

[barracuda]

If they were aware of that fact, I think virtually everyone would probably agree that a fertilized egg isn't a person YET, on the grounds that we don't try to track down and save the half dozen unimplanted fertilized eggs that might occur in the course of a given couple's attempts to have a child... nor do we mourn their deaths, nor do we tell people not to try to have children because they're guaranteeing the deaths of fertilized eggs as collateral damage in the process.

So... *probably* if everyone were well informed about those facts they would at least admit that a just-fertilized but not-yet-implanted egg is probably not something we can treat as if it were a person..(

Disagree. We don't track down and save these little beggars because we don't have the technology to comfortably do so. When we do, this practice may well become widespread. As for me, I relished the carefree days of my zygote-hood, those simpler, bygone, halcyon days of existing as a single cell.



Wasn't i just cute?

By the way, I hate this thread; this incident happened quite near to places I go quite often with my daughter, and I was gonna reply early on, but I was so disgusted and full of revulsion from the first moment I read about this story in the local news, I just about threw up thinking how I would personally have like to been in on the shooting and then having to pull back, calm down and not think about it, which I know is just the technique that has been discussed in this thread for mollification of the populous. The man involved was insane and insanity of tjhis sort is its own fiery hell without my hatred to course along with it.

[Horatio Hellpop]

*Insert own definition of whatever it is that resides in a womans stomach during pregnancy.

During pregnancy (and before it, and after it) a woman's stomach is full of food, and secretions like gastric acid and enzymes that break the food down.

The embryo/fetus resides in the uterus.

Perhaps you should in future refrain from any discussions regarding female anatomy?

Thanks for the lesson. So the UNBORN BABY resides in the uterus?

[Endomorph]

The man involved was insane and insanity of tjhis sort is its own fiery hell without my hatred to course along with it.

True dat.

[blanc]

Aren't there a couple of things more pressing than deciding the moment a fetus has the staus of a human being - the quality of life offered to all born children, and the assistance societies give to mothers in raising them?

[8bitagent]

8bit:

I tend not to regard "souls" as objects, so that question is likely beyond the scope of my own religous views. I tend to see only one soul, as an ongoing process, that all objects have semi-equal share in.

I consider there to be many legitimate reasons for the termination of a pregnancy. And I also consider it to be not neccessarily my place, or that of any governing authority to decide which reasons are legitimate. That said, I find its use as birth control to be distasteful at best. There are cheaper, safer, and less contentious forms of birth control that are widely available for free at most of the same clinics. I view this practice as symptomatic of the laziness and over-inflated-self-importance of modern societies.

That said, fundies who block clinics are wasting their time. If they wanted to save lives they'd be better off campaigning against the governments they elect, statistically speaking.

and I don't know about most pro-lifers being pro-war, really. a lot of the lifers I know are catholics, who've been pacifists since Nam. Not all Christians are Southern Baptists.

As far as crime and guns go...

When was the last time you were robbed at gunpoint?

For me, 2005. also 2003. (Also in years 2004, 2002, and 2001 I was robbed at knifepoint, in '02, I was in my front yard, getting my mail) In '06 someone tried to rob me at knifepoint and fled when they realized the only thing of value I possesed was a firearm. I did not shoot them, only because the only thing I dislike more than petty gangbangers are Police officers. and maybe Mormons.

The fact that impoverishment establishes a firm basis for most of this crime does nothing to mitigate the dangerous nature of it.

-----

I'm going to avoid dissecting the idea of sentience at present, but suffice it to say for now that I find the criteria examined so far to be woefully lacking in any relevant measure of computative abilities as regards unborn humans. I also find the arbitrary numbers to be somewhat silly. 21 weeks? so, 20 weeks is safe, but 22 is too late? Because all humans develop in uniform fashion? oh they don't? damn. There goes that theory. etc.

Maybe later, with permission to further derail this thread.

Love is Law,
SHCR

Never, thank goodness...and I am sorry you've been the victim repeatedly of that. I hate the fact we live in this world where people have no regard for property or people's personal space.

That is incredible that you had some sort of consciousness before birth...I can barely remember being 3. I think I'd have to say I agree with your views on souls, sentience, and a government's place...as well as the need for birth control and responsibility.

thank god for tkl. otherwise here we have a lot of guys talking about how awful abortion is, being the taking of 'human genetic code' (did you know you are flushing human genetic code down the sink every time you wash your hair?!?!?) while at the same time talking about how comfortable they are with the death penalty, owning guns and shooting people to death on sight. which is, ya know, ALSO the taking of human life, but the big difference is a MAN is doing it, so its completely copasetic with no moral grey zones at all.

it's starting to sound like that old argument 'let the men handle the big issues her, honey, you little women just don't have the moral weight to deal with life and death - we men just have it in our bones'. i mean please, what sexist unthinking putrid crap.

from idiots who think babies come from a woman's stomach, no less, most likely after ingesting watermelon seeds..............yep, hard to imagine a more well qualified, nuanced group of arguments gathered together in one place.

i am out of here.

Oh come on Luna. I dont see how it's un progressive to think some people deserve to die if they knowingly commit heinous unremorseful crimes.

Yes, some of us are not at all upset that a man who turned his 2 year old into pulp got blasted away. Doesnt make us "right wingers".

Also in another thread Luna, the perception of the man's world is exactly what I am against. "oh look, it's a girl...ok, let's hear what she has to say...*snicker snicker* oh, she must be on her period"

I ain't down with societies patronizing of women

*Insert own definition of whatever it is that resides in a womans stomach during pregnancy.

During pregnancy (and before it, and after it) a woman's stomach is full of food, and secretions like gastric acid and enzymes that break the food down.

The embryo/fetus resides in the uterus.

Perhaps you should in future refrain from any discussions regarding female anatomy?

When someone says "look at that guys' fat stomach", generally(at least in America) "stomach" refers to one's whole belly region and not specifically the "stomach organ".

[8bitagent]

So ... everybody's pretty firm on the endpoints of the continuum, nigh universal agreement there... and about the interval between the endpoints there is controversy.

Seems like something a society could come to some kind of agreement about one way or another if there weren't so much political and social capital to be made exploiting the divisions over the issue.

I agree.

But...a woman whose two 5 month old twins died when a bank robber shot her in the stomach...the robber will be charged with double murder

Scott Petersen is only on death row, because of the special circumstance of the unborn child he allegedly killed. The fetus counting as a person made him available for the death penalty

Recently, a woman was charged with four counts of murder:
killing a mom, her two children, and her unborn child

In some of these cases, were talking 5-6 month old fetus.

So then I have to ask, why is it murder if an assailant kills the fetus, but not the mom? I mean to the unborn kid, its doesnt matter.

Also, theres some militant pro choicers who dont want Scott Petersen
charged with murder of an unborn child.

[8bitagent]

By the way, I hate this thread; this incident happened quite near to places I go quite often with my daughter, and I was gonna reply early on, but I was so disgusted and full of revulsion from the first moment I read about this story in the local news, I just about threw up thinking how I would personally have like to been in on the shooting and then having to pull back, calm down and not think about it, which I know is just the technique that has been discussed in this thread for mollification of the populous. The man involved was insane and insanity of tjhis sort is its own fiery hell without my hatred to course along with it.

I agree. I lived in Turlock California in 1993-1994, and know the area where this happened...I could almost envision is unthinkable act from reading it.

And yes, my title is misleading...I guess someone tried to stop him. But just one or two blows to the head, and an infant that young is lost.

I've always wondered, what is the pathology of people who snap like that. We know about people who go on office shootings, or school shootings.

But people who just snap and do one bizarre and heinous act...like a mom cutting the arms off her kid, or drowning her children in the tub. We here about this stuff, and one has to wonder what lead up to that.

There's deep dark recesses of the human mind, that still have no concrete explanation.

Another issue, is just parenting in general. Almost everytime I go to Walmart, I see parents incessantly screaming or hitting their kids.
Sad how many people have children without the mental capacity to understand the situation, and how to be gentle and patient.

[8bitagent]

Aren't there a couple of things more pressing than deciding the moment a fetus has the staus of a human being - the quality of life offered to all born children, and the assistance societies give to mothers in raising them?

Thats a huge issue here in California, where Governator Arnold is going overtime to cut any and all funding for the needy, new moms, mental health, you name it.

I agree...WIC, Head Start, etc doesnt begin to cover it

(Besides being a "Conspiracy theorist" to most, I am also deeply entrenched in mental health advocacy/research, and social outreach issues for women in need, adults with mental/physical challenges, etc...hence why Arnold S is enemy number one here in CA to most)

[8bitagent]

They caught the bank robber who shot that pregnant woman, who lost her two 5 month old twins.

I wish they would be charging him with double murder:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25284770/

[brekin]

8bitagent wrote:

I've always wondered, what is the pathology of people who snap like that. We know about people who go on office shootings, or school shootings.

But people who just snap and do one bizarre and heinous act...like a mom cutting the arms off her kid, or drowning her children in the tub. We here about this stuff, and one has to wonder what lead up to that.

There's deep dark recesses of the human mind, that still have no concrete explanation.

Another issue, is just parenting in general. Almost everytime I go to Walmart, I see parents incessantly screaming or hitting their kids.
Sad how many people have children without the mental capacity to understand the situation, and how to be gentle and patient.

I'm always reminded of Bill Paxton's film Frailty, and the influence of parents beliefs and abuse on their children's growth and view of the world.

The film itself is a trip and I'm always interested in people's take on the ending. Anything short of utter estrangement and shock makes me a bit suspicious of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frailty

Frailty

Frailty is a 2001 psychological thriller film, directed by and starring Bill Paxton, and co-starring Matthew McConaughey. This film is the directorial debut for Paxton. The score was composed by Brian Tyler. The plot focuses on the strange relationship two young boys have with their father who believes that he has been commanded by God to kill demons, and the consequences this belief has after the boys have grown up.

Plot
A man enters the Dallas, Texas FBI office one rainy night, and introduces himself as Fenton Meiks (Matthew McConaughey). He wants to speak to Agent Doyle (Powers Boothe) about his belief that his brother Adam (Levi Kreis) is the notorious "God's Hand" serial killer.

Fenton explains that he is only coming forward now because earlier that day Adam had called him to say that he cannot stop the "demons" because there are too many, and killed himself. Fenton says that he stole Adam's body to bury it at the Thurman Rose Garden, according to a promise the brothers made many years ago. Agent Doyle continues to be skeptical, and Fenton unfolds through flashback the story of their childhood with their widowed father (Bill Paxton).

When Fenton and Adam were young boys, their father tells them that he had been tasked by God to root out and destroy demons whose names were to be provided for him by an angel. Special tools have been given to aid him: gloves to protect his hands, a lead pipe to knock them unconscious, and an axe to destroy them with. At this news, Fenton mentally shuts down, refusing to believe their father will really kill people, but Adam quickly believes their father to be doing God's work.

Their father captures his first victim, a woman named Cynthia Harbridge (Cynthia Ettinger). When he touches her, he claims he can "see" the sins she has committed, and has no guilt when he uses the axe to "destroy" her. Both Fenton and Adam are forced to witness this act; Fenton is traumatized, but Adam claims he can "see" the woman's sins as well. Her body is buried outside in the Thurman Rose Garden, upon which their house is located. Fenton tries to explain to Adam that their father has gone insane, but Adam continues to believe him, leading Fenton to conclude that his younger brother has been successfully brainwashed.

After the third victim is captured, Fenton decides to inform the town Sheriff (Luke Askew). When Sheriff Smalls arrives, Fenton's father kills him with the axe. Unlike the previous acts, the father says that this one is "murder" and blames Fenton for forcing him to commit it. The father confesses that the angel told him that Fenton is also a demon and has to be killed. Fenton begs for mercy, and his father locks him in the cellar. After being nearly starved to death, Fenton has a "vision of God" and is let out.

Fenton, Adam and their father track down another supposed demon and capture him. Fenton is given the axe to chop the man's head off, but he instead kills his own father. Fenton moves to release the captured man, but Adam grabs the axe and kills the "demon", apparently having taken over their father's work.

<snipped to not give away the ending, the ending that has to be seen to fully appreciate.>

[Horatio Hellpop]

thank god for tkl. otherwise here we have a lot of guys talking about how awful abortion is, being the taking of 'human genetic code' (did you know you are flushing human genetic code down the sink every time you wash your hair?!?!?) while at the same time talking about how comfortable they are with the death penalty, owning guns and shooting people to death on sight. which is, ya know, ALSO the taking of human life, but the big difference is a MAN is doing it, so its completely copasetic with no moral grey zones at all.

it's starting to sound like that old argument 'let the men handle the big issues her, honey, you little women just don't have the moral weight to deal with life and death - we men just have it in our bones'. i mean please, what sexist unthinking putrid crap.

from idiots who think babies come from a woman's stomach, no less, most likely after ingesting watermelon seeds..............yep, hard to imagine a more well qualified, nuanced group of arguments gathered together in one place.

i am out of here.

How fucking pathetic are you and your friend to suggest that I really am ignorant to this based on semantics. You are really presenting a nuanced argument there yourself. Sure, as a man I've killed heaps of times. I just don't think woman should be allowed. I mean for fuck's sake.

You are a grade A moron, who has obviously got het up without even reading what people are writing. There are plenty of fundamentalist lunatics in the pro life movement, you strike me as the flip side of that coin. You remind me of someone who starts screaming 'anti-semite' as soon as the issue of Palestine is discussed.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

The non-visual anonymous internet is especially conducive to 'moral disengagement' and demonization.

Perhaps the practice of Japanese ancestor worship would make a good model for applying a special forgiving and therapeutic reverance to Those We Can't See.

[tKl]

thank you, lunarose.

For millenia, women have used birth control. In the dark ages it was the old "witches," or traditional folk midwives, whatever, who held the knowledge of what herb would do what.

I had a girlfriend who i fucked for several years, our birth control was an herb she took after every sex encounter. All it did was cause her blood to thin, preventing her egg from nesting.

The RU486, or the "morning after pill" does the same thing. Is this "killing"?

OPED, the original OTO documents explicitly state that a consciousness does not take possession of a fetus until around three months. There are many other religious ideas about when the driver takes hold of the vehicle. i don't know what is true, but I do know that if a spirit is taking possession of a body that is bound to be aborted, then it is destiny.

That's not cold. I mean, if you believe in a reincarnating spirit, then it must be a stage in the re-birth process.

If you believe in one soul, one life, heaven or hell forever, I feel sorry for you.

If you don't believe in a spirit, then it really shouldn't matter.

I think that a pre-sentient fetus has such a tenuous grip on life that no murder is involved. I also believe that when a mother-vehicle is giving over her body to another life or spirit presence then abortion should not occur usually. I mean, if there is a being in there who wants to live, than aborting it is killing. I do not think that this can occur prior to sentience.

But have you ever seen a pregnant woman? Did you know that the presence of a fetus turns the cartilage of the woman's bones into jelly?

That is radical.