There's probably no God...

[monster]

I once asked if people were allowed to do anything wrong in Heaven.
I was told they're not allowed to, even if they want to, and in fact they cannot even want to because it's Heaven.

Ah yes, the blatant paradox Christians must ignore in order to believe in Heaven. Free will and the absence of evil cannot possibly coexist. In fact, good ceases to be good if you can't do otherwise. There is no merit in doing the right thing if it's your only choice.

I asked my brother about this once, and I regret it to this day because I think it really troubled him. I don't like shaking people's faith; but I am compelled to discuss life's big questions with people whose opinions I respect.

I think I even went on to say, "If God is capable of creating a paradise, why wouldn't he do it in the first place? Oh, wait - he tried. Twice. He's 0-2 in the paradise-creation department. First, Satan rebelled in "heaven" and took a third of the angels with him. Then, God tried to make an earthly paradise - Eden - and that got screwed up, too. Because of the pesky free will thing. But the third time's a charm, right? Yeah. I'm sure the next "heaven" will actually be perfect "

I know I sound antagonistic when I say things like that, but I only do it because I've asked myself the same question. I'm vocalizing one side of an internal dialogue, to see if I can get a different set of answers. What I've learned is, nobody thinks about this stuff except me

[Code Unknown]

I think I even went on to say, "If God is capable of creating a paradise, why wouldn't he do it in the first place? Oh, wait - he tried. Twice. He's 0-2 in the paradise-creation department. First, Satan rebelled in "heaven" and took a third of the angels with him. Then, God tried to make an earthly paradise - Eden - and that got screwed up, too. Because of the pesky free will thing. But the third time's a charm, right? Yeah. I'm sure the next "heaven" will actually be perfect :roll:"

Ha!

[Ben D]

I once asked if people were allowed to do anything wrong in Heaven.
I was told they're not allowed to, even if they want to, and in fact they cannot even want to because it's Heaven.

Ah yes, the blatant paradox Christians must ignore in order to believe in Heaven. Free will and the absence of evil cannot possibly coexist. In fact, good ceases to be good if you can't do otherwise. There is no merit in doing the right thing if it's your only choice.

This is true only if you imagine Heaven to be a place. If it is understood that it is not a place, nor is it in time, nor can it be known, nor can it be described, then religious practice becomes a matter of surrender of the dualistic ego mind to the underlying (non-conceptual) unity of all that exists.

[monster]

This is true only if you imagine Heaven to be a place. If it is understood that it is not a place, nor is it in time, nor can it be known, nor can it be described, then religious practice becomes a matter of surrender of the dualistic ego mind to the underlying (non-conceptual) unity of all that exists.

Sure, hey, that would be great. If heaven is dissolution of ego and a blissful reunion with the totality of being, I'm all for it. And I really do think that could happen after death.

I'm like 50/50 torn between that, and reincarnation (not limited to earth). Because with reincarnation, you could actually achieve some kind of "heaven". The key is that it's not perfect, and free will still exists. It's just the cosmic equivalent of a "good neighborhood".

Just like there are no perfect people, but there are nice neighborhoods and towns, you could put evolved (but not perfect) souls together and make a kind of "heaven". Death has to exist, because that's how you get shuffled around. Death removes corrupted souls from the good neighborhoods, and harvests good souls from the bad neighborhoods.

(This scenario actually occurred to me after a fractional distillation chemistry lab. I thought distillation was a great metaphor - souls forever bubbling upwards or condensing back down.)

[Code Unknown]

I once asked if people were allowed to do anything wrong in Heaven.
I was told they're not allowed to, even if they want to, and in fact they cannot even want to because it's Heaven.

Ah yes, the blatant paradox Christians must ignore in order to believe in Heaven. Free will and the absence of evil cannot possibly coexist. In fact, good ceases to be good if you can't do otherwise. There is no merit in doing the right thing if it's your only choice.

This is true only if you imagine Heaven to be a place. If it is understood that it is not a place, nor is it in time, nor can it be known, nor can it be described, then religious practice becomes a matter of surrender of the dualistic ego mind to the underlying (non-conceptual) unity of all that exists.

E.g., if you're Christian.

[Ben D]

Sure, hey, that would be great. If heaven is dissolution of ego and a blissful reunion with the totality of being, I'm all for it. And I really do think that could happen after death.

I'm like 50/50 torn between that, and reincarnation (not limited to earth). Because with reincarnation, you could actually achieve some kind of "heaven". The key is that it's not perfect, and free will still exists. It's just the cosmic equivalent of a "good neighborhood".

Yes, that seems to be what it's all about.

Initially unself-aware universal spiritual perfection incarnates in matter and through a process of repeated births and deaths slowly evolves through the lower kingdoms until it reaches the human kingdom whereby it develops mature ego self-consciousness but at the expense of it's original spiritual perfection, ie. the mortal ego is spiritually 'separated' (if only as a mental concept) from the universal spiritual unity and is therefore spiritually imperfect.

Religious practice is meant to bring to fruition the final phase of reintegrating the imperfect self-consciousness with it's original universal spiritual perfect source state. This is what divine alchemy is all about,..the reemerging into the universal spiritual perfection, yet now with self- awareness,..an angelic being perhaps.

Some souls are preparing for reintegration, some are adding to the continuing human evolution, some new souls are not long emerged from the animal kingdom,...perhaps what is meant to be understood by such concepts as gentiles/goyim.

[Ben D]

E.g., if you're Christian.

Yes, unfortunately most Christians are stuck in the dualistic mind set, and can't understand the very scripture they believe to be so sacred.

Which is understandable since they don't really study it personally, but hand their 'mind' over to an equally 'blind' intermediator which results in all of them falling into the ditch!

To be fair, it is probably true for all religious institutions, not only the Christian, but it is not true for the real practitioners of religion, regardless of their cultural or sectarian base, and who are generally considered either eccentric mystics or insane by their orthodox brethren.

[JackRiddler]

.

Okay, I'm going to be obnoxious here. I woke up in an anti-theistic mood.

If the true authorial intent and meaning of the scriptures could be established, most years I'd be among those who'd care to learn it, but seriously:

Who cares whether Christians are understanding their scriptures? On the simplest, most literal level most of them don't care for their scriptures at all, since they don't share Christ's behavior or concerns.

Why do these scriptures matter? What makes them more of an authority on "life, the universe and everything" than the Greeks or the works of William Shakespeare, or the physicists who brought about the revolutions of relativity and quantum mechanics? Or ______ (name alternative)? Honestly, who cares?

The most important figure in Christian history is Galileo. (I'm choosing him as a symbolic stand-in for a lot of others, but I think my meaning is clear.)

The Christian churches and sects that understand heaven and hell as a reward and punishment system, which is most of them, are a religion of terror. There, I said it. Not (necessarily) political terror or real-world mayhem, though there's been a lot of that, but the mental terrorism of believe this because I said so, or suffer unimaginably and eternally. And among the various sects, who cares which one is the "real" one?

Now, to go on to the more grown-up religious beliefs:

Initially unself-aware universal spiritual perfection incarnates in matter and through a process of repeated births and deaths slowly evolves through the lower kingdoms until it reaches the human kingdom whereby it develops mature ego self-consciousness but at the expense of it's original spiritual perfection, ie. the mortal ego is spiritually 'separated' (if only as a mental concept) from the universal spiritual unity and is therefore spiritually imperfect.

Yes, that sounds like something that could actually be true, and worthy of a faith-based acceptance.

This is true only if you imagine Heaven to be a place. If it is understood that it is not a place, nor is it in time, nor can it be known, nor can it be described, then religious practice becomes a matter of surrender of the dualistic ego mind to the underlying (non-conceptual) unity of all that exists.

And that sounds like a good, or at least a possible strategy for integrating the oft-conflicting aims of enlightenment (awakeness and involvement in the world) with spiritual peace in one's old age.

Where do I line up for the Meditator?

.

[Cosmic Cowbell]

[Eldritch]

Almost without exception, organized religions are well-lit pathways through the darkness—which lead nowhere.

Except for the ones that lead to the cliff—and beyond.

[monster]

the mental terrorism of believe this because I said so, or suffer unimaginably and eternally.

Ha - "mental terrorism" - I love it.

[8bitagent]

I also reject the atheistic Darwin is God, we're all just random protons and chaos agenda.
...

I mean, twig insects...my goodness, how they look *exactly* like branches, twigs, ect to the smallest detail.

This is kind of a bad example to use in the rejection of natural selection in favor of intelligent design, though. I mean, these characteristics were obviously chosen over generations for survival quality because the more this insect happened to resemble a stick, the less likely it was that a bird would eat it off a tree. So there's a beautiful element of randomness present here.

Believing in the possibility of deliberate intelligent design does not negate a belief in evolution or DNA changing to environments. My response was to Penguin about DNA evolving to adapt to environments.

I see a playful nature, perhaps not deliberate (and merely our perceptions) at work in a lot of things. I don't believe science has the end all be all answers, despite what the atheistic 'life has no deliberate artistry anywhere' crowd.

We now know that birds either evolved or shared a direct common ancestry with dinosaurs, but one has to wonder how the dinosaurs appeared(Im still delighted they found a preserved dinosaur with its skin and organs mummified)

[8bitagent]

I was never happy with God's treatment of Job. To be honest, I've yet to hear of anyone that God treated well. But that's his style, I suppose.
Jesus loves You - God just wants to Put Some Money On Your Pitbulls.

God got on okay with Noah, I suppose. They were both obsessives who hated it whenever anyone else enjoyed themselves, and got drunk whenever they could. Well, Noah did. I can't speak for God.

Satan, however, challenges Job's integrity, arguing that Job serves God simply because of the "hedge" with which God protects him. God progressively removes that protection, allowing Satan to take his wealth, his children, and his physical health. Job remains loyal throughout, and does not curse God. The main portion of the text consists of the discourse of Job and his three friends concerning why Job was so punished, after which God steps in to answer Job and his friends. The Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning and he lived 140 years (Job 42:10,17).

It's almost like 9/11. America intentionally stands down its guard, so the new world order can carry out its planes into building mission.

What the hell kind of God, who is suppose to be "the devil's main adversary", makes this kind of bizarre deal?

Very interesting analogy, 8bit, loose use of your favorite term ("new world order") aside. Call it "GLIHOP."

And why would Job, knowing God has made this almost Faustian pact with the Devil, grovel back to God? "Oh thank you God...you killed my family and ruined my life, but you're so awesome"

Good cop, bad cop. What if it's all a Satanic plan? Christianity, Islam, Judaism...what if it's all a trick? Even the Sumerians believed that the creators were wicked.

Had me...

Of course, that wouldnt explain why most of us are innately born to be good.

...then you lost me.

Zimbabwe, with the rigged elections? Since I was little, I always asked that if people are allowed to have free will...why be punished for it?

Indeed. Deep thought at any age.

America, with the rigged....? Hehehe.

I once asked if people were allowed to do anything wrong in Heaven.
I was told they're not allowed to, even if they want to, and in fact they cannot even want to because it's Heaven.

So it seems the reward for doing everything right in life, in spite of the Devil's temptations, is to be made to do everything right again for all eternity, except without the choice of doing otherwise.

Very good point too, now that you mention it, Ahab.

Over time, people find ways of loosening the constraints of newly organized social groupings. This becomes the rebellious angel, or the God of the Gnostics. Both impulses can be good in their place, but the representation of either one as being uncreated source of existence is idolatry.

Gnosticism is "idolatry"? WTF?

Well we have to go back and think, just going purely from a theological perspective on the early times of Christ and what followed.
From the story of Christ, he's standing up to the elite rulers, money changers, the Devil. If the story is true, Christ is fighting the "new world order elite" at the time, while preaching peace, tolerance, helping people.

Riiight.

Let me explain.

In pop conspiracy culture, we're told this shadowy "NWO" elite are a bunch of Satanic, oppressive rulers, bankers, ect. Within the basic Christ story, he seems to oppose such forces.

Of course, when you peel back the layers, even from a Biblical standpoint, even his birth story seems shrouded in esoteric symbolism and allegory more than any sort of historical record.

The problem is Christianity has this "you're either with us or the terrorists" viewpoint. We're told God has decreed that we're free moral agents, but if we are not subservient and accept Christ then we are bad and won't make it. Threatening people isn't very nice.
Just because someone does not except this "Christ" figure, doesnt mean they are some raping, stealing meth snorting two thug spreading misery.
But in the eyes of some "Christians", if you don't accept Christ...your soul is as gone as Hitlers.

So I wholeheartedly and completely reject Christianity, though support people's right to be Christian so long as they don't try and push any agendas on others(like the recent Prop

Glad you liked my God LIHOP analogy. I mean its truly frightening...I cant see why anyone would worship a God who is in cahoots or sometimes works with the bad guy. Or even more scary, that the "bad guy" is merely a pawn of Gods.

And then, this is just me...but even after decades of Bernays conditioning, societal programming, conflicting messages, and bombardment of media and dogma...

I still believe for the most part we are born "good". And while it could be debated whether a shark or lion, who rips apart other animals is "bad" or just part of the natural balance of things...given so many animals eat other animals as if it was like nothing...

I can't help but feel that innately, people are meant to relax, dream, wonder, create art, laugh, explore, have adventures, and share kindness and encouragement with warmth and humility. As well as express disgust, anger, depression, ect when need be.
I don't know where that comes from.
And I have no real idea of where human life came from or what the ultimate purpose is of. A Christian pastor tried to tell me that UFO's were the emissaries of Satan trying to trick people into a new age religion and from accepting Christ. I said "why does it always have to be about the Devil tempting people away from Christ? What if both sides are a lose-lose situation, like a fixed boxing game?" He didn't quite understand what I was saying.

[8bitagent]

Sure, hey, that would be great. If heaven is dissolution of ego and a blissful reunion with the totality of being, I'm all for it. And I really do think that could happen after death.

I'm like 50/50 torn between that, and reincarnation (not limited to earth). Because with reincarnation, you could actually achieve some kind of "heaven". The key is that it's not perfect, and free will still exists. It's just the cosmic equivalent of a "good neighborhood".

Yes, that seems to be what it's all about.

Initially unself-aware universal spiritual perfection incarnates in matter and through a process of repeated births and deaths slowly evolves through the lower kingdoms until it reaches the human kingdom whereby it develops mature ego self-consciousness but at the expense of it's original spiritual perfection, ie. the mortal ego is spiritually 'separated' (if only as a mental concept) from the universal spiritual unity and is therefore spiritually imperfect.

Religious practice is meant to bring to fruition the final phase of reintegrating the imperfect self-consciousness with it's original universal spiritual perfect source state. This is what divine alchemy is all about,..the reemerging into the universal spiritual perfection, yet now with self- awareness,..an angelic being perhaps.

Some souls are preparing for reintegration, some are adding to the continuing human evolution, some new souls are not long emerged from the animal kingdom,...perhaps what is meant to be understood by such concepts as gentiles/goyim.

Well then the question of abortion arises...as be it if youre a Christian, Jew, Muslim or on a more esoteric belief system...at what time does the "soul" get implanted into a human vessel?(fetus) Certainly the passing through a vaginal canal does not magically awaken such a thing if a soul exists.

The idea of a "soul" has always tripped me out, as that sets up a whole other set of questions. Are souls in everyone, even those with severe
birth defects to the point where they were never conscious?
Where do the souls go, and is there magazines in the waiting room?

[Ben D]

Sure, hey, that would be great. If heaven is dissolution of ego and a blissful reunion with the totality of being, I'm all for it. And I really do think that could happen after death.

I'm like 50/50 torn between that, and reincarnation (not limited to earth). Because with reincarnation, you could actually achieve some kind of "heaven". The key is that it's not perfect, and free will still exists. It's just the cosmic equivalent of a "good neighborhood".

Yes, that seems to be what it's all about.

Initially unself-aware universal spiritual perfection incarnates in matter and through a process of repeated births and deaths slowly evolves through the lower kingdoms until it reaches the human kingdom whereby it develops mature ego self-consciousness but at the expense of it's original spiritual perfection, ie. the mortal ego is spiritually 'separated' (if only as a mental concept) from the universal spiritual unity and is therefore spiritually imperfect.

Religious practice is meant to bring to fruition the final phase of reintegrating the imperfect self-consciousness with it's original universal spiritual perfect source state. This is what divine alchemy is all about,..the reemerging into the universal spiritual perfection, yet now with self- awareness,..an angelic being perhaps.

Some souls are preparing for reintegration, some are adding to the continuing human evolution, some new souls are not long emerged from the animal kingdom,...perhaps what is meant to be understood by such concepts as gentiles/goyim.

Well then the question of abortion arises...as be it if youre a Christian, Jew, Muslim or on a more esoteric belief system...at what time does the "soul" get implanted into a human vessel?(fetus) Certainly the passing through a vaginal canal does not magically awaken such a thing if a soul exists.

The idea of a "soul" has always tripped me out, as that sets up a whole other set of questions. Are souls in everyone, even those with severe
birth defects to the point where they were never conscious?
Where do the souls go, and is there magazines in the waiting room?

Well there doesn't seem to be a beginning to it, except as an arbitrary one based on the cultural/religious tradition.

Assume a solar system is being 'born' from the the swirling chaos of comic spirit, dust, elements, etc., when it finally coalesces, the unself-aware cosmic spirit is entangled with the elements and hence the star system and planets are themselves a sort of reincarnation,..perhaps the concept of Archangels, etc..

As this entangled but fluidic spirit seeps out through the condensed matter, transmuting the elements in the process, moss and fungi result.
From there it further evolves into the plant kingdom proper. This evolutionary trans-mutational process continues until the Human kingdom by which time some of the spirit is sufficiently sentient as to be able to function as an individual, ie. temporarily separated from it source albeit only in the mental conceptual sense. At the death of the human body, this 'genie' (perhaps now a soul) is released from the bottle and retains some of the self-awareness developed in the incarnation experience.

As to what happens to the self-aware spirit (soul) after death, who can say, but FWIW, here is a sort synopsis of the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

The first event of the deceased spirit when it leaves the body is to behold formless pure white light. After some time, a glorious deity appears within the white light reflecting the most beautiful colors imaginable.

If the deceased spirit's attention is drawn from the formless white light to the gloriously beautiful deity/god, it soon finds itself no longer in the realm of the pure formless white light but is now in the realm of the glorious Deity, hence it has begun the descent down into the lower realms of existence.

This 'test' is repeated in each realm, and each time the deceased spirit's attention is drawn from the relative sublime ambiance of a realm to some glorious deity within it, it descends yet further down.

Eventually, if the deceased's spirit continues to be deceived by the color and glamor of a created artifact at each realm as being more desirable than the pure essence of the realm itself, it will descend to a realm where it finds itself enamored by the sensual quasi-spiritual emanations associated with copulation and entanglement in a female womb ensues if conception takes place,.. and the reincarnation cycle begins!

The essential message of the Tibetan Book of the Dead?...that the pure formless white light first beheld after death is THAT which the deceased's spirit should surrender to completely, for the second and lower realms lead to even lower realms which ultimately lead to reincarnation.

While the Christians have their non-existent eternal Hell which can only be avoided by attaining to 'Heaven', Buddhists see reincarnation as the eternal wheel of suffering only to be avoided by attaining to Nirvana, ie. enlightenment.