Israel tasked with spying on Americans - Bamford

[stefano]

AD, all you've done in this thread is bleat about the use of the term "ZOG" and the existence of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. No-one here used ZOG, and in another thread Alice said something like "I'm fine with not using the term if we can talk about the actual topic." What the fuck are you on about?

[American Dream]

stefano wrote:

What the fuck are you on about?

My concern is with the infiltration of racist conceptions into progressive politics. In my experience "anti-Semitism" can and will be used to full effect by the defenders of the State of Israel to derail people from organizing anything meaningful from happening. In my experience in North America, this includes efforts to get colleges and city governments to divest from companies supplying military materiels, food co-ops to divest from settlement-produced products, allowing centers for Middle East Studies to operate freely in state schools- that sort of thing.

The opponents of this sort of solidarity consistently used charges of anti-Jewish prejudice to attack these efforts, and they were not even dealing with anything on the level of "ZOG" imagery. That they would have a total field day with.

My basic point: racist crap is easy fuel for the "divide and conquer" strategies of the real power people. I think this thread and, unfortunately, many others at RI, show us how important this concern is.

[stefano]

racist crap is easy fuel for the "divide and conquer" strategies of the real power people. I think this thread and, unfortunately, many others at RI, show us how important this concern is.

This thread doesn't show anything of the sort. Where has anyone said something anti-Semitic (i.e. accusing "the Jews" as a people of anything?)

What this thread does show is how successful the Zionist agenda has been in America. You can't bring yourself to say anything about the occupation without bending over backwards to avoid offending anyone Jewish, even though you know the Jews who will call you an anti-Semite for criticising the occupation are arguing in bad faith. Thus the whole thread/debate turns into one about the dangers of anti-Semitism and some hundred-year old book, and the actual issues are left untouched.

[American Dream]

stefano wrote:

What this thread does show is how successful the Zionist agenda has been in America. You can't bring yourself to say anything about the occupation without bending over backwards to avoid offending anyone Jewish, even though you know the Jews who will call you an anti-Semite for criticising the occupation are arguing in bad faith. Thus the whole thread/debate turns into one about the dangers of anti-Semitism and some hundred-year old book, and the actual issues are left untouched.

Partly I agree with this, but partly I don't. I think we absolutely should, speak out about the very reals crimes of the Israeli State, including the covert operations. Where I stop though is at allegations regarding the putative World Jewish Conspiracy that aren't grounded in a principled position on historic and contemporary racism.

In my corner of the world, I feel that racial/ethnic oppression is far worst towards Arabs, Muslims, people of African Descent, and others, far more than assimilated Askenazi Jews. Nevertheless, I don't agree with the use of the term "ZOG".

Anyway, I feel like we're in danger of going around in circles endlessly. I've made my point and I feel complete with it. I'm ready to move on to other things. I say "Salaam, Shalom, Peace" to everyone, and I give thanks that Rigorous Intuition has given us good things to think about.

[AlicetheKurious]

American Dream said:

I feel like we're in danger of going around in circles endlessly. I've made my point and I feel complete with it. I'm ready to move on to other things.

Translation: Mission Accomplished.

You didn't make any "point" -- you didn't respond to any of the arguments or facts relevant to the topic of this thread. Instead, you gratuitously introduced the "Protocols", and threw diversionary stink bombs.

At the very least, your priorities are very screwed up.

The extremely well-documented infiltration and domination of the highest levels of political decision-making power by a small group of zionist ideologues has had and continues to have catastrophic consequences for America and for the world. It's already too late for the tens of millions of human lives that have already been savagely destroyed. It's already too late for the millions more who will be born in the uranium-scorched earth of nations that the zionists have decreed should be wiped off the map. It may not be too late to save millions, or tens of millions more from the hellish fate that awaits them according to the latest zionist decrees.

Taking a hard, unflinching look at the results of this infiltration is only the first step to fighting it, and many in the U.S. remain unwilling to do even that. Unless we are prepared to take an equally hard look at the specific individuals who have been embedded at the helm of the world's only military superpower, and the motivations that drive them, we will be limiting ourselves to yelling for "peace" until we're hoarse, and wringing our hands helplessly as the world is engulfed in flames. (The kind of "activism" that makes people like you feel "complete" is but one component of the mechanism that produces -- and can produce-- nothing but despair). Finally, without seriously addressing the specifics of the powerful networks of corruption, intimidation and propaganda that have allowed them to successfully transform their sick fantasies into an even sicker reality, it is impossible to mount an effective defense.

Who, why, how. Knowledge is power. Until and unless people are willing to take a clear, hard look at the answers to these questions, including the crucial question of why apologists for a thieving, terrorist, racist, genocidal state are deciding what the rest of us are allowed to think and say, zionist gatekeepers disguised as "activists" will echo the hypocritical lament:

Again and again I have seen very positive activist efforts melt down due to the emotional charge around the various issues related to Palestine/Israel, be it Jewish sensitivities around "anti-Semitism", activists' desire for Justice, or what have you.

[Sounder]

Double post.

[Sounder]

AD wrote...

In my experience "anti-Semitism" can and will be used to full effect by the defenders of the State of Israel to derail people from organizing anything meaningful from happening.

Yes and quite obviously, anti-Semitism is a tool used to much better effect by Zionists than it is by Anti-Zionists. And you just never mind about the inherent racism within Zionism. OH, and if you try to stop the US govt. from sending bombs and money to Israel you are anti-Semitic. It is the perfect ploy, try to stop this racialist land grab and murder spree, you must be a racist.

Zionists love anti-Semites
AD wrote...

My basic point: racist crap is easy fuel for the "divide and conquer" strategies of the real power people.

Nice use of 'racist crap' AD. And no, there are no 'real power people'. There are rather different factions within the PTMB that 'quietly' vie for dominance while doing their best to limit 'collateral' damage to the commoner class. Soon the Zionists will be put in their place by the real racists, and they will not see it coming because they thought they were the best of buddies. (That is, Israel does 'wet work' for other states and tries to create enough 'insurance' to protect themselves when the shit comes down.)

AD wrote…

I think this thread and, unfortunately, many others at RI, show us how important this concern is.

What are you implying here AD? That RIers fall for the divide and conquer by pointing out crimes of Israel? You are a piece of work AD.

[American Dream]

Sounder wrote:

Yes and quite obviously, anti-Semitism is a tool used to much better effect by Zionists than it is by Anti-Zionists. And you just never mind about the inherent racism within Zionism. OH, and if you try to stop the US govt. from sending bombs and money to Israel you are anti-Semitic. It is the perfect ploy, try to stop this racialist land grab and murder spree, you must be a racist.

I agree strongly with all of the above. The international campaign to fight against "the New anti-Semitism" is simply the latest ploy to defend the policies of the State of Israel. I have seen it used spuriously to defuse meaningful organizing, many, many times.



Sounder wrote:

Nice use of 'racist crap' AD. And no, there are no 'real power people'. There are rather different factions within the PTMB that 'quietly' vie for dominance while doing their best to limit 'collateral' damage to the commoner class. Soon the Zionists will be put in their place by the real racists, and they will not see it coming because they thought they were the best of buddies. (That is, Israel does 'wet work' for other states and tries to create enough 'insurance' to protect themselves when the shit comes down.)

Well, I do agree with the analysis regarding an ecology of power within elite circles. As to what seem to be deprecating comments regarding my not liking the term "ZOG" and referring to models of the Zionists ruling the World as "racist crap", that is another question.

I think racism affects most all of us, and pervades our world. Sounder, you are fond of quoting Rudolph Steiner, and I have appreciated your interpretation of Steiner philosophy in the past. However, I think I am standing on safe ground to take the term you used for me, and assert that Rudolph Steiner was "a piece of work" when it comes to race and racism. So if even this innovative mystic was so blind where it comes to racism and the like, perhaps we all are.

Thus, terms like "ZOG" while perhaps having great resonance due to the ongoing history of bullshit thinking around "race", should be avoided like the plague, if our goal is to create positive change.



Sounder wrote:

AD wrote…

I think this thread and, unfortunately, many others at RI, show us how important this concern is.

What are you implying here AD? That RIers fall for the divide and conquer by pointing out crimes of Israel? You are a piece of work AD.

Sounder, first you make a false interpretation of my words-I never accused RI'ers in general of any such thing, in fact I have repeatedly stated the opposite, including here in this thread. Therefore, I will try to ignore your ad hominem, since it is built on such a faulty premise.

[Sounder]

AD wrote….

As to what seem to be deprecating comments regarding my not liking the term "ZOG" and referring to models of the Zionists ruling the World as "racist crap", that is another question.

I would never depreciate someone for not liking the term ZOG, I do not like it either. But it seems to be mostly you that subliminally frames the arguments to be between nuts that assert that Zionists 'rule' the world, and not simply 'want' to rule the world, but rather truly 'rule', and rational people that are working with the facts on the ground as best they can.

So an obvious fallacy is asserted by associating resistance to Zionism (a little fish) with the assumption that it is a big fish.

AD wrote...

I think racism affects most all of us, and pervades our world. Sounder, you are fond of quoting Rudolph Steiner, and I have appreciated your interpretation of Steiner philosophy in the past. However, I think I am standing on safe ground to take the term you used for me, and assert that Rudolph Steiner was "a piece of work" when it comes to race and racism. So if even this innovative mystic was so blind where it comes to racism and the like, perhaps we all are.

I tend to agree that 'racism affects most all of us, and pervades our world.' But.... I have never quoted Rudolf Steiner. I have read very little of Steiner and the little I did read I found to be obscuratanist and at least elitist if not racist. Apparently I share similar ontological pretences with Steiner, but if you care to know, my soul brother is Abraham Heschel.

AD wrote...

Thus, terms like "ZOG" while perhaps having great resonance due to the ongoing history of bullshit thinking around "race", should be avoided like the plague, if our goal is to create positive change.

Yeah well, I never brought this up, you did.

on edit, add wink

[AlicetheKurious]

American Dream said:

Thus, terms like "ZOG" while perhaps having great resonance due to the ongoing history of bullshit thinking around "race", should be avoided like the plague, if our goal is to create positive change.

That is dishonest. Zionism is an abhorrent ideology, not a race, nor even a "race". Smearing opponents of zionism for "anti-Jewish racism" is no more legitimate than smearing opponents of nazism for "anti-German racism", or smearing opponents of apartheid for "anti-White racism".

This is the same sort of "bullshit thinking" that brands conscientious opponents of the criminal invasion of Iraq as traitors and terrorists. That you would employ such a tactic yourself causes me to seriously wonder what role you would really play within any movement for positive change. At least in this thread, your priority has been, using not very honest tactics, to conflate very separate things: "Judaism" with "zionism", and opposition to zionism with "hate". That has nothing 'positive' about it, and even less 'change', since that is a well-worn, if sleazy, tactic of zionist apologists.

I think racism affects most all of us, and pervades our world.

Perhaps the most insidious racism of all is the kind that allows some criminals, because they define themselves as members of an oppressed minority, to exercise their power openly, to bully and intimidate, to steal and murder, to publish their warmongering and genocidal intentions, and then to dictate self-serving and cynical moral directives to the rest of us. Since we're throwing around accusations of racism, I can't help but wonder if you'd be so willing to allow zionists to determine the limits of acceptable thought and discourse if the ultimate targets of their savagery weren't "just" Arabs, or Muslims.

Maybe before you continue with your 'activism' to liberate anybody else, you might want to try liberating yourself.

As for the acronym "ZOG", which has got you all worked up since I used it in another thread, it stands for "Zionist-Occupied Government": this is not a racist designation, but a reference to the vast preponderance of zionist ideologues at the highest levels of power in Washington, and their ability to lock out anybody who refuses to declare unconditional allegiance to the zionist state. If asked, I can (and have) enumerated many, many examples of how that works, and the outrageously horrible consequences for millions of innocent people. Anybody who does not agree that this is the reality, should be able to explain why not, and to provide examples in support. Merely throwing around accusations of 'anti-semitism' is not only evasive, it's yet more evidence of how zionist brainwashing has succeeded in substituting knee-jerk, conditioned responses for rational observation and thought.

BTW, Sounder, you certainly have the right not to like the term -- frankly, I don't like it either, mainly on aesthetic grounds. But as a dialogue starter, it has its uses...

[American Dream]

Alice,

I think you must be deliberately ignoring the racist ramifications of tropes like "ZOG" and allegations of a Zionist conspiracy that runs the United States and/or the World. Certainly your coy denials of knowledge regarding the framing issues there- i.e. that you never heard of Stormfront, don't know much of anything about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc., don't ring true to me. After all, you exhibit an advanced understanding of Israeli and Palestinian history in general. Something about this seems very odd.

I keep emphasizing the importance of being really thoughtful and strategic in relation to activism around Palestine/Israel. In my view, you perseverate with an unnecessarily inflammatory and biased presentations of the issues, mixed in of course with "true facts" about those issues.

I'm sure you will heatedly deny that this is so, but by now I find your track record to be pretty clear. I did try to engage you in dialogue, but have found it extremely frustrating. No longer will I expect that AlicetheKurious might actually evolve in her positions around this issue, and thus I have little need to engage with you for this reason. However, I will definitely continue to offer a different point of view to others, as needed, because I believe that many of the other people on this board exhibit more of a capacity for growth and change.


>AD

[AlicetheKurious]

Certainly your coy denials of knowledge regarding the framing issues there- i.e. that you never heard of Stormfront, don't know much of anything about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc., don't ring true to me. After all, you exhibit an advanced understanding of Israeli and Palestinian history in general. Something about this seems very odd.

The only reason it seems "odd" to you, is because you assume that what you ridiculously call "the framing issues"(!) have anything to do with "Israeli and Palestinian history in general", other than the fact that they have been intentionally linked together by zionist propaganda. WHICH. THEY. DO. NOT.

[SonOfKitty]

Good job American Dream. You have incorporated the word "coy" nice sexist cue there!And you have thrown in the "protocols" and American Neo Nazi's in the same post. You're Pathetic.

[Sounder]

AlicetheKurious

That is dishonest. Zionism is an abhorrent ideology, not a race, nor even a "race". Smearing opponents of zionism for "anti-Jewish racism" is no more legitimate than smearing opponents of nazism for "anti-German racism", or smearing opponents of apartheid for "anti-White racism".

People that cannot see this distinction are not ready for 'growth and change'.

It is just like some paternalistic dumbfuck to suggest that their viewpoint provides 'growth and change' while any opposing view represents stubborn resistance to 'evolve' That is just peachy, lets have more 'growth and change' by sending more money to Israel because those Palestinians are not being good sports about having their land 'transferred' from their ownership.

Have you read any Abraham Heschel, AD?