What is wrong with the Sphinx?

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Postby sfnate » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:55 pm

orz wrote:
Sweejak wrote:The proportions as they exist now are goofy, I think he's got that, but I'm having a hard time envisioning how they cantilevered the snout of Anubis.

Yeah, me too. Maybe could be done tho. I'm certainly convinced the head was re-carved, even if it was from a bigger human face of a different guy.


Looking at some of the excellent photos posted earlier in the thread, where much smaller scale sphinxes are shown that very nearly match the example at Giza, I think (without knowing the dates of the smaller examples, which may in fact be imitations of the Giza sphinx) that a simpler explanation may be that one king simply defaced the original by re-shaping the head to match his own. Obviously, this would result in a fairly significant reduction in the size of the head, as the masons chipped away the features of the original.

I may have missed it in the original article, but has anyone done a mathematical analysis of the sphinx, to compare ratios etc. of the various physical features of the Giza sphinx to other similar examples found in stone, bas reliefs, etchings or paintings? Setting aside for a moment the admittedly significant detail of apparent water erosion, it seems to me that the question of what the sphinx actually looked like may have several answers--maybe it went through numerous alterations, from dog/jackal to lion to sphinx etc.

Really, a structural engineer should do the math and physics to see if any of the proposed alternatives would even be possible given the obvious challenges of creating such a massive sculpture.
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Postby justdrew » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:02 pm

sfnate wrote:
orz wrote:
Sweejak wrote:The proportions as they exist now are goofy, I think he's got that, but I'm having a hard time envisioning how they cantilevered the snout of Anubis.

Yeah, me too. Maybe could be done tho. I'm certainly convinced the head was re-carved, even if it was from a bigger human face of a different guy.


Looking at some of the excellent photos posted earlier in the thread, where much smaller scale sphinxes are shown that very nearly match the example at Giza, I think (without knowing the dates of the smaller examples, which may in fact be imitations of the Giza sphinx) that a simpler explanation may be that one king simply defaced the original by re-shaping the head to match his own. Obviously, this would result in a fairly significant reduction in the size of the head, as the masons chipped away the features of the original.

I may have missed it in the original article, but has anyone done a mathematical analysis of the sphinx, to compare ratios etc. of the various physical features of the Giza sphinx to other similar examples found in stone, bas reliefs, etchings or paintings? Setting aside for a moment the admittedly significant detail of apparent water erosion, it seems to me that the question of what the sphinx actually looked like may have several answers--maybe it went through numerous alterations, from dog/jackal to lion to sphinx etc.

Really, a structural engineer should do the math and physics to see if any of the proposed alternatives would even be possible given the obvious challenges of creating such a massive sculpture.


speaking of other sphinx, something I was wondering... Is the sphinx icon the only human-head/animal-body in the Egyptian culture? I can see lot's of examples of animal-head/human-body icons, but no other examples of human head on an animal body.

Also, wondering what others think of the geo-polymer idea. They've demonstrated how to make those stones and I don't see why the same technique couldn't have been used on the sphinx. Also it would make supporting the weight of the proposed jackal head easier because it could have been semi-hollow, which would also have made it easier to smash/vandalize.
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Postby 2012 Countdown » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:50 pm

A Sphinx (for the archaic spelling Sphynx, revived for a breed of cat and other uses, see below) is an iconic image of a recumbent lion with a human head, invented by the Egyptians of the Old Kingdom, but a cultural import in archaic Greek mythology, where it received its name (Greek Σφιγξ, "strangler").

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There was one Sphinx in Greek mythology. She was a demon of destruction and bad luck, according to Hesiod a daughter of the Chimaera and Orthrus, according to others of Typhon and Echidna. She was represented most often seated upright rather than recumbent, as a winged lion with a woman's head; or she was a woman with the paws, claws and breasts of a lion, a serpent's tail and birdlike wings. Hera or Ares sent her from her Ethiopian homeland (for the Greeks remembered the Sphinx's foreign origins) to sit outside Thebes and ask all passersby history's most famous riddle: "Which creature in the morning goes on four feet, at noon on two, and in the evening upon three?" She strangled anyone who couldn't answer. The word "sphinx" comes from the Greek Σφιγξ, Sphinx, apparently from the verb σφιγγω, sphingo, meaning "to strangle". Oedipus solved the riddle: man, crawls on all fours as a baby then walks on two feet as an adult, and walks with a cane in old age. The Sphinx then threw herself from her high rock and died. In fact, the exact riddle asked by the Sphinx was not specified by early tellers of the story and was not standardised as the one given above until much later in Greek history.
Thus Oedipus can be recognized as a liminal or "threshold" figure, helping effect the transition between the old religious practices, represented by the Sphinx, and new, Olympian ones.

Link-
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/Sphinx.html

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Napoleon Bonaparte and the Sphinx

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Greek Sphinx-Oedipus and the Sphinx, Louvre

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Aegina or Aigina (Greek: Αίγινα Egina), one of the Saronic Islands of Greece in the Saronic Gulf, 31 miles (50 km) from Athens.
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The term cherubim in the Herbrew Bible refers not to our modern usage of “chubby young angels,” but to winged guardian figures, usually with a human head and the body of an animal. Shown here is an Assyrian guardinan figure wearing a horned crown that indicates his divinity.

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/05-07-28



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Unearthed from the tomb of Imperial Concubine Wei in Liquan County of Shaanxi Province; measuring 52.9cm high and 48.4cm long.


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re: other human head-animal body figures in Egyptian mythology...


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Postby justdrew » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:47 am

hmm, the ba-bird's the word, but they seem like the only other example...
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Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:34 am

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President Barack Obama looks amazingly like Akhenaten the father of monotheism. Michelle Obama looks amazingly like Akhenaten's mother, Queen Tiye. Akhenaten had two daughters by Nefertiti. They look amazingly like Malia and Sasha. The code names of Renegade, Renaissance, Radiance and Rosebud correlate well with the ancient depiction of the Royal Family.



I have been showing off my art work of Barack Obama as Akhenaten to see what people think. Admittedly, most of my friends already see the world differently than your average citizen. Let's just say they already come with a conspiracy bent. My hope is to instill wonder in our world and to say that things just might be a little stranger than you thought.

I would show my friends this picture and say, "What do you think?" Without any other comment.

They would say, "Well, he does look a lot like Akhenaten."

My jaw would dangle just a bit.

I say, "OK, I understand that you do not know that this woman next to Barackhenaten is Akhenaten's mother, Queen Tiye."

"That's really her face?" They ask.

I say, "I have done nothing to alter their faces. I simply found a photo that was facing the right direction and their mouth was closed. I cut the face in half and super-imposed it on the ancient busts."

"That is amazing!"

"It gets even stranger." I say, "I found that Akhenaten had two daughters from Queen Nefertiti...

I wait for it.

"They do look like Akhenaten's children!"

"Notice in this ancient frieze of Akhenaten and Nefertiti with their two girls, what is the other most prominent features of this picture?" I ask.

"Didn't Akhenaten worship the sun god Aten?"

"Yes"


"Oh, and the flowers."


"Exactly. Do you know the code names the secret service gave the first family?"


"Isn't that a secret?"


"I guess it should be but, no, it was in the news. Their names are Renegade, Renaissance, Radiance, and Rosebud."


"Radiance and Rosebud?"


"Absolutely. Here look for yourself."

"Well, what do you think now?" I ask.


"Are there family connections?"


Come on, what are the odds that a woman that looks exactly like the mother of Akhenaten would marry a man who looks exactly like Akhenaten and have two children that look exactly like the offspring of Akhenaten and Nefertiti?


As a kid my mind was open to such possibilities. As I studied the pyramids and ancient astronauts, I knew mummification had a mysterious property that we in the, then, 20th century could not reproduce. Our new mummies decompose. The ancient Egyptian mummies did not. I knew this allowed for the retrieval of a viable cell for cloning and I pondered if there would be some day when "they" would bring back the Pharaohs. I was thinking of some Armageddon script when the dead would walk the Earth. What I never thought of was, the clones coming out as the first family of America!


"Today is a great day to live." They say.


"Amazing!"



Look Familiar?




Pharaoh Akhenaten was known as the Heretic King. He was the tenth King of the 18th Dynasty.



The very controversial Akhenaten and his family lived in the great religious center of Thebes, city of the God Amun. There were thousands of priests who served the Gods. Religion was the 'business' of the time, many earning their living connected to the worship of the gods.

All indications are that as a child Akhenaten was a family outcast.

Scientists are studying the fact that Akhenaten suffered from a disease called Marfan Syndrome, a genetic defect that damages the body's connective tissue. Symptoms include, short torso, long head, neck, arms, hand and feet, pronounced collarbones, pot belly, heavy thighs, and poor muscle tone. Those who inherit it are often unusually tall and are likely to have weakened aortas that can rupture. They can die at an early age. If Akhnaton had the disease each of his daughters had a 50-50 change of inheriting it. That is why his daughters are shown with similar symptoms.

Akhenaten was the son of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiy, a descendent of a Hebrew tribe.

In 1352 BC. Akhenaten ascended the throne, succeeding his father Amenhotep III who had died. Akhenaten was just a teenager at the time, but it was the desire of Queen Tiy that he rule. In some version of the story, it is written that father and son shared the throne briefly.

Akhenaten's reign lasted 16 years. This was a difficult time in Egyptian history. Many scholars maintain that Akhenaten was responsible for this decline, but evidence suggests that it had already started.

Akhenaten's Great Royal Wife was Queen Nefertiti.

It is accepted that Akhenaten and Nefertiti had six daughters. No son was ever shown in reliefs.
The names of the daughters were; Meritaten (1349 BC) - Meketaten and Ankhenspaaten (1346 BC) - Neferneferuaten (1339 BC) - Neferneferure and Setepenre (1338).
In 1337 BC the official family, with all six of Nefertiti's daughters was shown for the last time.
In 1336 BC Meketaten died in childbirth.
In 1335 Nefertiti seemed to vanish, assumed dead.


It was said that one day Akhenaten had a vision wherein he saw a sun disc between two mountains. He felt that God was guiding him to make change. He was shown the God, Aten, as the Sun Disk - the Light. He felt guided by Aten to build a city between the two mountains.
In the sixth year of his reign Akhenaten rejected the Gods of Thebes. They were never part of his childhood anyway since he had been shunned as a child. Akhenaten had declared for the first time in recorded history that there was only one God - the concept of monotheism. Overnight he turned 2,000 years of Egyptian religious upside down...


Nefertiti's prominent role in Egyptian royal rule and religious worship reflects her influence in the public sphere. During the early years of her royal reign, Nefertiti as part of her religious conversion changed her name. Nefertiti which means "The-beautiful-one -is come" became Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti or "The-Aten-is -radiant-of-radiance [because] the-beautiful-one-is come". A different interpretation of the name change, translated Neferneferuaten to mean--"Perfect One of the Aten's Perfection".

Following his wife's lead, Amenhotep IV changed his name in the fifth year of his reign to Akhenaten.

In 1342 BC the seat of government was transferred to Akhetaten.



Tomb 55 in the Valley of the Kings
Of all the royal mummies ever discovered none has ever caused more controversy then the one found in tomb 55 of the Valley of the Kings.

At the beginning of the 20th Century, Theodore Davis, a wealthy American excavating in Egypt, discovered a tomb in which a burial from the Armana period had been reinterred. This tomb was clearly unfinished, and the burial a hasty one. Gilded wooden inlay panels on the floor and against the wall. They bore the damaged image of Akhenaten worshiping the sun disc and the name of Queen Tiy.

In a niche were four beautiful alabaster jars that held the internal organs of the mummies. Lying on the floor was a badly damaged but beautiful coffin made with thousands of paste in-lays and semi-precious stones in the shape of protective wings. The cartouches containing the occupants name had been hacked out.

When they opened the coffin they found a mummy wrapped in gold-leaf. But as they touched the mummy it crumbled to dust leaving the excavators with a pile of disarticulated bones at the bottom of the coffin. But beneath the skeleton, the last sheet of gold, seemed to have the damaged named of Akhenaten written on it. The pelvis was wide like a female's. The head was elongated.

What really became of Akhenaten's mummy still remains a mystery. Fragments of sculpture and carving from the royal tomb at Akhetaten shows that his body was originally put there, but no sign of the mummy remains. It is possible that followers of the Aten feared for it's destruction, which would deny him eternal life, and moved the body to a place of safety.

Akhenaten is perhaps unfairly not credited with being a particularly successful Pharaoh. Records seem to indicate that he allowed Egyptian influence wane but this may not be true. These ideas are based on the famous Amarna Tabletsfound in Akhetaten in many of which Egyptian vassal cities plead for assistance, but no replies are preserved.

As there is no surviving record of Egyptian territory being lost at this time it is possible that Akhenaten was merely skillfully playing one city against the other to achieve through diplomacy what would otherwise require military force.


The Amarna Tablets - Letters
The el-Amarna letters, a collection of correspondence between various states and Egypt, were found in the remains of the ancient city of Akhetaten, built by Akhenaten around 1370 BCE. Some of the documents belong to the time of Amenhotep III, while others are from the time of Akhenaten. They provide invaluable insight into the foreign affairs of several countries in the Late Bronze Age.

The first Amarna tablets were found by local inhabitants in 1887. They form the majority of the corpus. Subsequent excavations at the site have yielded less than 50 out of the 382 itemized tablets and fragments which form the Amarna corpus known to date.

The majority of the Amarna tablets are letters. These letters were sent to the Egyptian Pharaohs Amenophis III and his son Akhenaten around the middle of the 14th century B.C. The correspondents were kings of Babylonia, Assyria, Hatti and Mitanni, minor kings and rulers of the Near East at that time, and vassals of the Egyptian Empire.

Almost immediately following their discovery, the Amarna tablets were deciphered, studied and published. Their importance as a major source for the knowledge of the history and politics of the Ancient Near East during the 14th Century B.C. was recognized. The tablets presented several difficulties to scholars.

The Amarna tablets are written in Akkadian cuneiform script and present many features which are peculiar and unknown from any other Akkadian dialect. This was most evident in the letters sent from Canaan, which were written in a mixed language (Canaanite-Akkadian).

The Amarna letters from Canaan have proved to be the most important source for the study of the Canaanite dialects in the pre-Israelite period.

More to the story

He changed Egypts artistic style to an almost comedic form by instructing artists to do caricature portrayals of their subjects. (that's odd)

"This statue from Akhenaten's temple at Karnak is the three-dimensional equivalent of the relief above. This is the classic early period look of Akhenaten: feminine curves, heavy thighs and belly, half-closed eyes, full lips, and a long face and neck characterized representations of the king. (some say he was bi-sexual but others say he had a genetic disease that caused his own body to be rather feminine)

During the early years, there was a tendency for the artists to make Akhenaten's family members look like clones (did they say clones?) of him. Here, at right, is an early representation of either Nefertiti or Tiye, looking very much like images of Akhenaten from the early years. This cloning went out of fashion with the advent of the later style of Amarna art. This statue from Akhenaten's temple at Karnak is the three-dimensional equivalent of the relief above. This is the classic early period look of Akhenaten: feminine curves, heavy thighs and belly, half-closed eyes, full lips, and a long face and neck characterized representations of the king.
http://www.heptune.com/art.html


The Mystery of Akhenaten: Genetics or Aesthetics?

"His odd appearance was particularly prominent in art from the early part of the reign. One early statue portrays the king in the nude and without genitalia of any kind."

http://waywardthinking.multiply.com/jou ... an_Pharaoh
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concrete

Postby justdrew » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:59 am

justdrew » 01 Jun 2009 20:46 wrote:many of the stones in the pyramids were likely cast from a form of concrete. Keep in mind there is ancient Roman era concrete construction that has aged perfectly and most of our modern stuff is ruined in a hundred years or less. We've only semi-recently learned to make as good or better concrete. but of the industry still isn't using the tech much. here's some links:
The Riddle of Ancient Roman Concrete
http://www.romanconcrete.com/docs/spillway/spillway.htm

geopolymer is the name of the newly developed concrete.
http://www.geopolymer.org/category/archaeology/pyramids
video demonstration: http://vimeo.com/1657432


well, the 'secret' of Roman Concrete has been re-discovered...

http://newscenter.lbl.gov/news-releases ... -concrete/





Ancient Roman Concrete Is About to Revolutionize Modern Architecture
By Bernhard Warner | June 14, 2013

After 2,000 years, a long-lost secret behind the creation of one of the world’s most durable man-made creations ever—Roman concrete—has finally been discovered by an international team of scientists, and it may have a significant impact on how we build cities of the future.

As anyone who’s ever visited Italy knows, the ancient Romans were master engineers. Their roads, aqueducts, and temples are still holding up remarkably well despite coming under siege over the centuries by waves of sacking marauders, mobs of tourists, and the occasional earthquake. One such structure that has fascinated geologists and engineers throughout the ages is the Roman harbor. Over the past decade, researchers from Italy and the U.S. have analyzed 11 harbors in the Mediterranean basin where, in many cases, 2,000-year-old (and sometimes older) headwaters constructed out of Roman concrete stand perfectly intact despite constant pounding by the sea.

The most common blend of modern concrete, known as Portland cement, a formulation in use for nearly 200 years, can’t come close to matching that track record, says Marie Jackson, a research engineer at the University of California at Berkeley who was part of the Roman concrete research team. “The maritime environment, in particular, is not good for Portland concrete. In seawater, it has a service life of less than 50 years. After that, it begins to erode,” Jackson says.

The researchers now know why ancient Roman concrete is so superior. They extracted from the floor of Italy’s Pozzuoili Bay, in the northern tip of the Bay of Naples, a sample of concrete headwater that dates back to 37 B.C. and analyzed its mineral components at research labs in Europe and the U.S., including at Berkeley Lab’s Advanced Light Source. The analysis, the scientists believe, reveals the lost recipe of Roman concrete, and it also points to how much more stable and less environmentally damaging it is than today’s blend.

That’s why the findings, which were published earlier this month in the Journal of the American Ceramic Society and American Mineralogist, are considered so important for today’s industrial engineers and the future of the world’s cities and ports. “The building industry has been searching for a way to make more durable concretes,” Jackson points out.

Another remarkable quality of Roman concrete is that its production was exceptionally green, a far cry from modern techniques. “It’s not that modern concrete isn’t good—it’s so good we use 19 billion tons of it a year,” says Paulo Monteiro, a research collaborator and professor of civil and environmental engineering at the University of California, Berkeley. “The problem is that manufacturing Portland cement accounts for 7 percent of the carbon dioxide that industry puts into the air.”

The secret to Roman concrete lies in its unique mineral formulation and production technique. As the researchers explain in a press release outlining their findings, “The Romans made concrete by mixing lime and volcanic rock. For underwater structures, lime and volcanic ash were mixed to form mortar, and this mortar and volcanic tuff were packed into wooden forms. The seawater instantly triggered a hot chemical reaction. The lime was hydrated—incorporating water molecules into its structure—and reacted with the ash to cement the whole mixture together.”

The Portland cement formula crucially lacks the lyme and volcanic ash mixture. As a result, it doesn’t bind quite as well when compared with the Roman concrete, researchers found. It is this inferior binding property that explains why structures made of Portland cement tend to weaken and crack after a few decades of use, Jackson says.

Adopting the materials (more volcanic ash) and production techniques of ancient Roman could revolutionize today’s building industry with a sturdier, less CO2-intensive concrete. “The question remains, can we translate the principles from ancient Rome to the production of modern concrete? I think that is what is so exciting about this new area of research,” Jackson says.

Of course, if you are no fan of concrete architecture, you’re out of luck. It could be with us for a few millenia more.


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