Incidental pawns in a very large chess game

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Postby n0x23 » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:05 pm

oh i may yet get back to it. understand i am not an opponent of religion in itself, merely a proponent of understanding its history. i just have to leave in a bit tonite and i have stuff to do before then.
also, there are a few direct quotes in those links, as horribly mainstream as they are, being wiki and all.
i actually have lecture notes on it somewhere and if i find them, i could innundate you with chapter/verses/etc, but i don't keep those sorts of things lying immediately about once i've used them to pass a test, y'know...


Nor am I really opposed to Religion, per say, by and large it is a direct result of willful ignorance, which I am vehemently opposed to, but, I also recognize the fact that it is simply a unique, humanistic trait that originates in our frontal lobes.
So I do not suspect it is going anywhere anytime soon.

My true interest lies not in Religion itself, but the source of Religion.


p.s. nice to meet you, btw. it has been pleasant conversing with you, and i hope to do so again at length at some future point.


Yes, agreed, the feeling is mutual.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:00 pm

Op Ed is completely right about the caste system. (Although it may have originated in something different, a series of guidelines aimed at at bringing traits back into a damaged gene pool, and providing a structure for a society ruined by nuclear war. :wink: )

As far as the widhful thinking goes - be careful what you wish for - you just might get it.

More to the point, who cares if there are demonic psychic space squid?

because it is more comforting on some level to believe that we are not the primary cause of human suffering. which we are.


Thats always the case. No demonic force in the universe has more (or any) power than you when it comes to furthering or ending human suffering.
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Postby n0x23 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:04 pm

Op Ed is completely right about the caste system.


Could you please expand on this, Joe?


More to the point, who cares if there are demonic psychic space squid?


This is rhetorical, correct?
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:36 pm

It seems pretty obvious (to me anyway) that the caste system was introduced wayyyy back in the day, as a method of social control and of holding power within certain groups in Indian society.

My dad is a Brahmin. (But we are also, genetically more likely to be of Dravidian and australoisd descent, judging from our appearance and a few other things - not aryan.) It seems obvious from the inside...

But also what a crock of shite.

Everything reincarnates as everything, eventually. Using that as a basis for a divisive social policy that aims to keep people locked within certain social structures... I'm repeating myself aren't I.

Interestingly in indigenous Australian culture reincarnation follows family and totemic lines. I'd be inclined to call that the oldest known form of religion that refers to reincarnation. There was contact between Indigenous Australian and Indian cuture that stretches back a long way. It just seems to me that reincarnation was hijacked as an idea back during the Aryan invasions - I dunno call it a genetic memory.

Its something I have thought since I first heard of the concept of castes.

As far as psychic alien squid demons go, or any other sort for that matter.


No its not a rhetorical question.

Seriously who gives a fuck.



What are they gonna do?

Nothing that you don't let them do.

We are not responsible for other peoples actions only our own.

If you use an alien space demon as justification for your crimes, well if nothing else you are weak, and don't deserve to be considered an adult human being.

We are the primary place where consciousness is invoked on earth.

Its up to us what we let in and what we keep out, and basically being a half decent person is enough to keep slimey and tentacled monsters from the dungeon dimensions out of our universe.

If they exist you are not gonna keep them out of other human minds (unless you know those old rituals and you don't) and are the only person who can keep them out of yours.
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Postby Percival » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:28 pm

I just read some very interesting books recently that suggested that Gotama Buddha was an aryan. The idea was that since he was a prince he would have had to have been aryan because of the strict caste system during the time he lived. I have been studying Buddhism for many years and in the Tripitaka which is the teachings of the Buddha as recorded by the monks he spoke to during his life, he is in fact in many ways described as someone who might appear to look aryan. This of course is what a lot of white supremacist types teach and what Hitler and the Nazis believed so I dont know how much stock to put in to it but as a student of Buddhism I found it to be rather interesting to consider.
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Postby n0x23 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:47 pm

It seems pretty obvious (to me anyway) that the caste system was introduced wayyyy back in the day, as a method of social control and of holding power within certain groups in Indian society.


Yes, but where in the Vedas does it state that the caste system was to be implemented, respected and followed as a hierarchical, social stratification?


As far as psychic alien squid demons go, or any other sort for that matter.
No its not a rhetorical question.
Seriously who gives a fuck.
What are they gonna do?

Nothing that you don't let them do.


So, since there is currently no "proof" that they exist, they can not do us any harm, is that correct?

We are the primary place where consciousness is invoked on earth.


Interesting. What do you mean?





Percival

The Sakya clan is purported to have built a Kshatriya Empire in Nepal, which is an Indo-Aryan region, but, there isn't much in accurate documentation regarding this, nor is there definitive documentation that proves the Sakya clan, or even the Buddha actually existed for that matter, other then a scared tooth...

Tripitaka which is the teachings of the Buddha as recorded by the monks he spoke to during his life, he is in fact in many ways described as someone who might appear to look aryan.


Are you referring to the Brahmayu Sutta in the Majjhima Nikaya ?

http://www.dhammaweb.net/Tipitaka/read.php?id=125[/list]
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:32 am

n0x23 wrote:
It seems pretty obvious (to me anyway) that the caste system was introduced wayyyy back in the day, as a method of social control and of holding power within certain groups in Indian society.


Yes, but where in the Vedas does it state that the caste system was to be implemented, respected and followed as a hierarchical, social stratification?


I think its implied by the purusha song. (I can accept that if the varna was a guideline - and the "castes" themselves were possibly meant as guidelines then the caste system could be seen as something similar to career guidance. But given the way the story is told, and the implications of the word varna (which refers to skin colour) and the association with the darkest people coming from purusha's feet - in a culture concerned with purity and cleanliness being next to godliness ... i think its pretty obvious the implication is the lower castes are dirtier and less deserving of power in the world. Especially in light of the idea that everyone is born Sudra originally, and only merit as a sudra gains you access to the higher castes of vaishyas, kshatriyas and brahmins.

As far as psychic alien squid demons go, or any other sort for that matter.
No its not a rhetorical question.
Seriously who gives a fuck.
What are they gonna do?

Nothing that you don't let them do.


So, since there is currently no "proof" that they exist, they can not do us any harm, is that correct?


No, whether they exist or not, what they are capable is dependant on you. (And others.) The harm you suffer will be because of other people, or if you are unlucky the world itself. if they exist and guide the actions of others to harm you, then its primarily others who are responsible for that harm. After all they listened to the space squid and surrendered their autonomy to allow the evil cephalopods to direct their actions.

We are the primary place where consciousness is invoked on earth.


Interesting. What do you mean?


Exactly that.

The whole of the world is conscious to an extent, but self awareness, and the ability to create art that reflects on our place in the world, and mitigates the enourmous energies that drive ceation - thats where humans fit in.

We exist so nature can have a conversation with itself, and sing and dance in celebration of the wonder of being alive.

Everything else might do that too, but humans are especially adapted to do it more often and more intricately. And there's a magical aspect to that too. The actual art/rituals, and their complexity and creation allows the energy of the big bang (ie the energy that drives creation) to come into the world channelled and controlled through structures that live instead of ripping the whole SheBang to subatomic particles.
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Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:55 am

n0x23 wrote:
What I find really striking about that pictures of the Vril women, is how they look like modern goth girls.


Maybe they are. The Thule Gesellschaft existed, and was quite active, and it's possible that it still exists. But the Vril Gesellschaft... not so sure. I mean, it's new incarnation, closely named after another well-known secret society, again, has a website.

Secret societies who want to surreptitiously destroy the world and draw the ancient ones to our plane don't much go for a web presence, generally, unless they're recruiting.

Bulwer-Lytton was only writing decent inspired fiction, you know?

I keep agreeing with everything Op Ed writes these days. It's not in nature! :lol:
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Postby n0x23 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:53 pm

I think its implied by the purusha song. (I can accept that if the varna was a guideline - and the "castes" themselves were possibly meant as guidelines then the caste system could be seen as something similar to career guidance. But given the way the story is told, and the implications of the word varna (which refers to skin colour) and the association with the darkest people coming from purusha's feet - in a culture concerned with purity and cleanliness being next to godliness ... i think its pretty obvious the implication is the lower castes are dirtier and less deserving of power in the world. Especially in light of the idea that everyone is born Sudra originally, and only merit as a sudra gains you access to the higher castes of vaishyas, kshatriyas and brahmins.



In the Purusha Sukta hymn, there is no mention of varna, skin color or otherwise. But if skin color was a determining factor within the caste, how does one account for the lofty worship and praise of the dark-skinned Krishna, Rama, or the BLACK colored Kali?

There is no mention of caste in the Purusha regarding the four classifications of brahmanas, kshatriyas, vaishyas and the shudras. It is the Hindu's creationism mythos, "God" sacrificing himself, dividing himself into four parts and thus creating Man, illustrating that the whole is simply a sum of its parts.
Again, my contention is that it is not the pure, Esoteric doctrine at fault here, but the perverted, Exoteric interpretation of these scriptures.

Just as the Buddha had to rectify the damage done by the Upanishadic seers, then came Shankara and just as Shankara's followers did the same thing, which then justified the need for Ramanujacharya to come, just as the perversion of the Pharisees and the resultant emergence of Jesus, identically the corruption of the canonical teachings of the Buddha by the commentaries and had to be salvaged by Nagarjuna which was debased by the degradation of the Mahayanic Sutras and on and on and on....



No, whether they exist or not, what they are capable is dependant on you. (And others.) The harm you suffer will be because of other people, or if you are unlucky the world itself. if they exist and guide the actions of others to harm you, then its primarily others who are responsible for that harm. After all they listened to the space squid and surrendered their autonomy to allow the evil cephalopods to direct their actions.



So would this be a valid, logical argument against Anton van Leeuwenhoek's invisible creatures from another world that were the predominant cause of human nosocomial infections, morbidity and mortality?

What about the flatworm, the hairworm or especially the fungal parasite?



Exactly that.

The whole of the world is conscious to an extent, but self awareness, and the ability to create art that reflects on our place in the world, and mitigates the enourmous energies that drive ceation - thats where humans fit in.

We exist so nature can have a conversation with itself, and sing and dance in celebration of the wonder of being alive.

Everything else might do that too, but humans are especially adapted to do it more often and more intricately. And there's a magical aspect to that too. The actual art/rituals, and their complexity and creation allows the energy of the big bang (ie the energy that drives creation) to come into the world channelled and controlled through structures that live instead of ripping the whole SheBang to subatomic particles.


Okay.
So do humans exist specifically so gravity can celebrate its gravitational pull?
What about the sun....does it exist so it can bask in its own light?
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Postby n0x23 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:21 pm

AhabsOtherLeg, I'm not arguing for or against the actual existence of the Vril, it's just a recreational, "high weirdness" interest of mine, just as UFOs, the Nephilim, Occulture, etc, are.

Just as I have never seen a UFO in my entire life, then about a month ago, I'm sitting in my backyard around midnight and this glowing, pulsing orange and red orb passes directly over my head in complete silence.

My first though it was a balloon illuminated by the street and porch lights, but it did not wobble, waft or elevate as balloons do, it continued on its ruler-straight trajectory until it was out of sight, miles away, never losing its illumination.

So, what do I make of that....Hell if I know, but it sure was fucking interesting! :shock:


Ps. that sentence you quoted was actually from 8bitagent.
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Postby OP ED » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:57 pm

So do humans exist specifically so gravity can celebrate its gravitational pull?


if you say so.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:56 pm

Again, my contention is that it is not the pure, Esoteric doctrine at fault here, but the perverted, Exoteric interpretation of these scriptures.


That may well be true.

I don't read sanscrit, so most of my opinions on this come from other sources (conversations with people who can, and have spent a fair part of their life knowing this stuff.) If the originl doctrine is "pure" and the interpretation of it is perverted that wouldn't surprise me at all. It happens all the time.

Anton van Leeuwenhoek's invisible (well actually very small) creatures didn't come from another world. They came from this one. They are physical structures.

As opposed to "evil space demons or something". Dunno how you can make the comparison. Especially when it comes to an overarching plan evil plan to do us harm. Parasites do what they have to do to survive and breed, there is no intent to cause harm, and in fact parasites are disadvantaged by causing too much harm, most of the time.

It doesn't matter what cosmic denizens do or what they say. Unless they are actually manifesting in front of you then having a feed on actual flesh ... god or the devil didn't make you do it. Thats just your excuse. (Not necessarily you per say n0x23 plural you directed at the world.) Apart from natural disasters and minor tragedies (like getting eaten by a shark), humans are responsible for the harm that happens here. (It could be argued that if you get eaten by a shark, or hit by a tree in a storm, its your own fault too.)

Blaming mythical creatures is what uninitiated children do.

Okay.
So do humans exist specifically so gravity can celebrate its gravitational pull?
What about the sun....does it exist so it can bask in its own light?


Am I sposed to dignify that with a response?

BTW Interesting that you saw the red/orange orb. Seems to happen a lot. I saw swarms of them over Melbourne (Australia) once. The city was shrouded in fog, and we were watching from the escarpment to the NW. The police chopper was taking off and flying up to check them out, then returning after about five minute to be replaced by another chopper. This continued for at least half an hour. I doubt anyone in melbourne knew what was happening above their heads (cept the people involved in the police response.)
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Postby n0x23 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:03 pm

if you say so.


If I say so?

Hold on....um......let me see...okay, yea, I double-checked and as I suspected there is in fact a "question mark" at the end of that sentence.
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Postby OP ED » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:16 pm

n0x23 wrote:
if you say so.


If I say so?


i said that, didn't i?
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Postby n0x23 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:28 pm

i said that, didn't i?


No, you said, if you say so, there was no mention of that until your last post?
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