Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

[barracuda]

Tell that to these fine folks in Vermont:

http://www.vermontrepublic.org/

Blanket statements don't tend to serve rigorous intuition.

Nothing against Vermonters, but the fine folks of The Green Mountain State are 99% white, no doubt about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont#Race_and_gender

[23]

Tell that to these fine folks in Vermont:

http://www.vermontrepublic.org/

Blanket statements don't tend to serve rigorous intuition.

Nothing against Vermonters, but the fine folks of The Green Mountain State are 99% white, no doubt about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont#Race_and_gender

Then perhaps you can find a racist tone or two in any of the writings that this institute has propagated. The Middlebury Institute for the study of separatism, secession, and self-determination. It's in Vermont as well.

http://www.middleburyinstitute.org/

You may be better at spotting racism than I am. Help is always appreciated.

[barracuda]

Really, you mean like the US Civil War? I see what you mean, but Cascadia, would that be racist,

Oregon: 93% White

Washington: 88% White

British Columbia: 75% White

Idaho: 97% White

Hawaii?

The Hawaiian sovereignty movement is principally centered upon issues of Native Hawaiian ancestry.

Ethnicity/Religion/ and similar are, I think, inevitable glues used to make nations.

They are also the age-old weapons which have kept mankind at war for seven millenia.

And my argument regarding secession is not that it is inherently racist, but that, as I said, it seems to seek division on neat racial boundaries, however pure the motivations may be. The Second Vermont Republic is only conceivable because of the homogeneity of the population there.

[23]

And my argument regarding secession is not that it is inherently racist, but that, as I said, it seems to seek division on neat racial boundaries, however pure the motivations may be. The Second Vermont Repuclic is only conceivable because of the homogeneity of the population there.

Incredible.

When the Middlebury Declaration says this...

http://www.middleburyinstitute.org/midd ... n2004.html

"We the undersigned participants of Radical Consultation are convinced that the American Empire, now imposing its military might on 153 countries around the world, is as fragile as empires historically tend to be, and that it might well implode upon itself in the near future. Before that happens, no matter what shape the United States may take, we believe there is an opportunity now to push through new political ideas and projects that would offer true popular participation and genuine democracy. The time to prepare for that is now..."

you see racism where I see staunch anti-imperialism.

Incredible indeed.

[barracuda]

Once again, I don't see racism in the stated goals of Second Vermonters. What I see is a completely homogeneous white population in Vermont, seeking self-determination. Great.

There is no reason that we cannot begin to examine the process of secession in the United States. There are already at least 28 separatist organizations in this country - the most active seem to be in Alaska, Cascadia, Texas, Hawaii, Vermont, Puerto Rico, and the South

[23]

Once again, I don't see racism in the stated goals of Second Vermonters. What I see is a completely homogeneous white population in Vermont, seeking self determination. Great.

A state that is also, IMO, one of the most progressive states in the union.

A state that has better medical coverage for its citizens than most states.

A state that has a socialist for a legislator.

But if it's mostly white, there's probably a racist motive underlying the progressive programs.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from.

Gotcha.

[barracuda]

Look at the list of secessionist movements they support. It's the balkanisation of the U.S.

And it's not mostly white. It's ALL white.

[23]

Look at the list of secessionist movements they support. It's the balkanisation of the U.S.

And it's not mostly white. It's ALL white.

So I guess that it doesn't bother you that our taxes are supporting our militarization of the rest of the world.

I must confess: it disturbs the shit out of me. Every day.

I'd gladly move to a state that no longer pays for our military's death and destruction.

I'll sleep better at night, for sure.

[barracuda]

That came out of nowhere. You've never been blocked from leaving the country, dude. What's stopping you?

[23]

That came out of nowhere. You've never been blocked from leaving the country, dude. What's stopping you?

If Vermont no longer remained part of the union, I know scores of people who would want to move there.

Just so that their taxes wouldn't have to support an imperialist military.

But, then, you'd probably look for a racist motive in us, I suspect.

As for leaving the country, my family is here. And I'd want to be near them.

"Whenever any form of government is destructive of these ends [life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness] it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government in such form as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." Declaration of Independence, 1776

[Sweejak]

Damn, I just lost a post.
No time to put it all back together but I don't think Cuda and I have a real disagreement.

Look at the list of secessionist movements they support. It's the balkanisation of the U.S.

And it's not mostly white. It's ALL white.

You just mentioned the Hawaiians and what about the Lakota?

[barracuda]

If Vermont no longer remained part of the union, I know scores of people who would want to move there.

Just so that their taxes wouldn't have to support an imperialist military.

But, then, you'd probably look for a racist motive in us, I suspect.

As for leaving the country, my family is here. And I'd want to be near them.

It's easy to be self-righteous about a desire that will never resolve into a reality. The Second Vermont Republic is not about to happen. You keep taking about racism, I'm talking about the facts of the demographics of secessionist movements. However:

In early 2007 an anonymously written blog revealed some advisory board members had affiliations with Neo-Confederate groups, such as the League of the South (LOS), resulting in internal and public controversy. The blog was written by someone with "a long history of monitoring hate groups" and drew its initial criticisms from material published by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC).

In reaction, SVR co-founder Thomas Naylor told The Vermont Guardian that the organization has no direct link to LOS, except a link on the SVR website, and that SVR is not racist. He told a radio audience: "The SPLC is a well-known McCarthy-style group of mercenaries who routinely engage in ideological smear campaigns on behalf of their wealthy techno-fascist clowns. It’s all about money, power, and greed." In June 2008 Naylor denounced the SPLC exposé of Second Vermont Republic as a "CIA witchhunt." However, in July 2008 Naylor asked the League of the South to consider several "actions aimed at eliminating once and for all any perception that the LOS is a racist organization."

"Whenever any form of government is destructive of these ends [life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness] it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government in such form as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." Declaration of Independence, 1776[/quote]

^^Now that statement, I have absolutely no problem with.

[23]

It's easy to be self-righteous about a desire that will never resolve into a reality. The Second Vermont Republic is not about to happen. You keep taking about racism, I'm talking about the facts of the demographics of secessionist movements.

I think that this thread's record reflects that you're the one who sees racism in secession movements. And you use demographics to support what your eyes see. All one has to do is reread the earlier parts of this thread to clearly see this.

As for your terming someone's interest to no longer fund an imperialist military, via his or her taxes, as "self-righteous"...

I'll concede that you may be a subject matter expert on self-righteousness.

[Sweejak]

Oh my god the SPLC.

Look, I've never been native to anywhere, never had a home town, but people will adapt and become members of all kinds of societies given a reasonable climate of peace and prosperity. That's my experience from the ground, that's all I can say.

Yeah, race divides and it's about to wreck this thread.

[barracuda]

I'll concede that you may be a subject matter expert on self-righteousness.

I appreciate your concession, however unnecessary it may be.

Yeah, race divides and it's about to wreck this thread.

All right, all right, I end my end of this digression.