Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby dada » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:03 pm

undead wrote:Anyone who has significant experience with any of these substances will tell you that they are medicines


There are two different kinds of "medicine." There's medicine that you take when you're sick, like a doctor prescribes, and then there's medicine which is power, like a shaman takes ritually. I will tell you these substances are medicines, but I mean the latter kind.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby undead » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:41 pm

dada wrote:
undead wrote:Anyone who has significant experience with any of these substances will tell you that they are medicines


There are two different kinds of "medicine." There's medicine that you take when you're sick, like a doctor prescribes, and then there's medicine which is power, like a shaman takes ritually. I will tell you these substances are medicines, but I mean the latter kind.


These are not two different kinds. In archaic societies they are the same. You are clearly inexperienced and don't have a clue. Like I said, your opinion is irrelevant.

Peregrine wrote:That's the second time you've referred to hava as a liar. Knock it off. Right off the bat you bulled over her while she remained civil. It wouldn't hurt you to do the same.


I was under the impression that telling lies made one a liar. I guess if you really believe the lie hard enough, that makes you something else? Like, ignorant and afraid, perhaps? I apologize, really this person is just ignorant and afraid and making off-topic noises.
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby undead » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:44 pm

Let's have a look at the alternatives...

Blanks for the memories:
Someday you may be able to take a pill to forget painful recollections

By Scott LaFee, (c) San Diego Union Tribune Feb. 11, 2004

There's a scene in Shakespeare's "Macbeth" where the protagonist implores a doctor to treat Lady Macbeth, who is wracked by memories of past bad acts.

"Canst thou not minister to a mind diseas'd,
Pluck from the memory a rooted sorrow,
Raze out the written troubles of the brain,
And with some sweet oblivious antidote
Cleanse the stuff'd bosom of that perilous stuff
Which weighs upon the heart?"

The doctor, of course, can offer no real salvation. Lady Macbeth is condemned to live with her bad memories. Recalling our past is a part of the human condition. But what if that reality changed? What if people – 400 years after Shakespeare asked – could take a pill to purposefully dim – perhaps erase – our most painful and unwanted memories?

The notion has long been a favorite of fiction writers, from Shakespeare to fantasists like the late Philip K. Dick, but serious people – scientists and scholars – now believe it might be possible.

"The burgeoning field of neuroscience is providing new, more specific, and safer agents to help us combat all sorts of psychic distress," wrote the authors of "Beyond Therapy," a recently released report by the President's Council on Bioethics.

"Soon, doctors may have just the 'sweet oblivious antidote' that Macbeth so desired: drugs that numb the emotional sting typically associated with our intensely bad memories."

The authors do not think this is necessarily a good thing.

Think it with feelings

Memory isn't a single entity. There are different kinds and types.

Short-term memory lasts just a few seconds. It's the ability to recall a phone number long enough to dial it. Capacity is limited. It's no coincidence that phone numbers are just seven numbers long. That's the working limit for most people's short-term memory.

Long-term memories come in two broad categories. Explicit memories are general knowledge, facts of life, conscious recollections, the sort of stuff most people think of as memory.

Implicit memories are perceptual abilities, motor skills, conditioned or instinctive responses that operate outside of consciousness, such as instantly recognizing an object or knowing how to ride a bike.

Researchers focus on long-term memory because it is the primary driver of behavior. Much about how long-term memories are formed or function is fuzzy or unknown, but some fundamentals are well-understood.

To wit: Strong emotions make strong memories.

Most daily events are quickly forgotten. They are memories writ in pencil, never made permanent. But some events provoke an emotional response. In these moments of joy or sadness, terror or surprise, the body is flooded with stress hormones released by the adrenal glands, which are located above the kidneys. This is part of the ancient "fight or flight" response. Hormones like adrenaline wash over the amygdala – an almond-shaped portion of the brain that processes emotion, most notably fear. Adrenaline tells the amygdala that what's happening at that moment is worth remembering, that this is a memory to be writ in neurological ink.

Here's where many neuroscientists think there's an opportunity to act, to perhaps dilute a potentially traumatic memory before it dries hard and fast.

"We've learned that if you can prevent the system from working, give a drug that blocks the action of stress hormones (upon the amygdala and brain), then you may be able to prevent the influence of making stronger memories," said James L. McGaugh, director of UC Irvine's Center for the Neurobiology of Learning and Memory and author of "Memory & Emotion: The Making of Lasting Memories."

Memory-altering drug research is currently focused on propranolol, one of several so-called beta blockers widely used to reduce blood pressure, treat abnormal heart rhythms and prevent migraines. The brand name for propranolol is Inderal. Other beta blocker brand names are Inderide, Innopran XL, Betachron E-R, Kerlone, Lopressor, Tenormin, Toprol XL, Visken and Zebeta.

Beta blockers work by "blocking" the stimulative influence of stress hormones – specifically adrenaline – upon the body, relaxing blood vessels and slowing nerve impulses inside the heart.

Experiments indicate propranolol also blocks the effect of adrenaline upon areas of the brain involved in memory formation, including the amygdala. It seems to disconnect emotion from memory.

In a study conducted by Larry Cahill, a neurobiologist at UC Irvine, McGaugh and others in the late 1990s, test subjects were told an emotionally neutral, comparatively boring story illustrated by 12 slides. A second group of subjects was then shown the same 12 slides. The related story, however, was much more emotional, involving a severely injured boy.

When later asked what they remembered seeing in the pictures, subjects in the second group recalled much greater detail about the story than the first group did about theirs.

Cahill and McGaugh then presented the second, emotionally upsetting story with slides to a third group of volunteers who were given a standard dose of propranolol or endurol (another beta blocker). Their memories, when tested three weeks later, were "just like that of subjects who had received the boring story," said McGaugh.

Subjects remembered the story, but without any emotional depth.

Such findings suggest an obvious potential therapeutic benefit: If people who have just experienced a traumatic event could be given a memory-dampening drug like propranolol, they might avoid suffering later psychic damage, such as post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD.

Roughly 5 million Americans between the ages of 18 and 54 suffer from PTSD at any given time. Almost 8 percent of Americans will experience PTSD at some point in their lives, women twice as likely as men. Clearly, McGaugh and others said, there are times when blocking the formation of traumatic memories would be beneficial.

"Let me give you an example from the 1978 PSA (plane) crash in San Diego where they made the horrible mistake of sending out desk people and baggage handlers to clean up body parts after the crash. Later, there was a follow-up report that said a very high percentage of those people were never able to work again. They had been permanently disabled because of the trauma.

"Now, that's PTSD to the nth degree, that would be a case in which something like (a memory-blunting drug) would be of value."

Two subsequent studies reinforce the potential efficacy of using beta blockers to blunt memory. In a 2002 pilot study, Roger Pitman, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard University, recruited 31 people from the emergency room of Massachusetts General Hospital who had just been involved in a traumatic event, typically an automobile accident.

Some of the study volunteers were treated with propranolol for 10 days after the trauma; some received a placebo. Evaluated one month later, none of the subjects treated with propranolol had a stressful physical reaction to re-creations of their traumatic event, while six of the 14 subjects treated with a placebo did.

A similar 2003 study, conducted at two French hospitals, produced analogous results. Larger studies are being planned.

A need to remember

Despite its therapeutic potential, some people are wary of memory-altering drugs. Chief among them: the President's Council on Bioethics, an advisory group of doctors and scholars formed in 2001.

In its report, the council worries that dampening painful memories – or in the future, erasing them altogether – may disconnect people from reality or their true selves.

"The use of memory-blunters at the time of traumatic events could interfere with the normal psychic work and adaptive value of emotionally charged memory," the council wrote. "A primary function of the brain's special way of encoding memories for emotional experiences would seem to be to make us remember important events longer and more vividly than trivial events."

In other words, emotional memories, however painful, serve a purpose. We remember memories linked to emotions longer and better because they help us learn, adapt, survive. Early hominids needed to know and remember that lions were dangerous. Modern children burn their fingers on a match and learn that fire hurts. We all learn to avoid bad things by remembering bad experiences.

Council members fret that dampening traumatic memories with beta blockers may short-circuit "the normal process of recovery," that in some way it may diminish our character or our personal development.

Blocking emotional memories, the council asserted, risks "falsifying our perception and understanding of the world. It risks making shameful acts seem less shameful, or terrible acts less terrible, than they really are."

"It's the morning-after pill for just about anything that produces regret, remorse, pain, or guilt," said Dr. Leon Kass, who chaired the President's Council, to the Village Voice last year. (Kass noted he was speaking as an individual, not on behalf of the council.)

The council expressed a host of concerns and troubling scenarios.

For example, the council posited, what if somebody committed an act of violence and then took propranolol to dull the emotional impact. Would they come to think of violence as more tolerable than it really is?

Would rape victims, having taken memory-altering drugs to ease their trauma, forget key details vital to the prosecution of their attackers?

More broadly, is there a social obligation for people to remember the past events for the communal good, such as victims of the Holocaust?

"The impulse is to help people to not fall apart. You don't want to condemn that," said Kass. "But that you would treat these things with equanimity, the horrible things of the world, so that they don't disturb you ... you'd cease to be a human being."

Long-term effect

Such talk dismays researchers like McGaugh. Partly because they believe it overstates current scientific realities; partly because it seems a moot point. Society, suggests McGaugh, decided decades ago that the benefits of certain drugs outweighed any memory-altering side effects.

"We made that decision with the advent and use of psychoactive drugs. Valium is a memory-impairing drug, but I don't hear people raising memory issues about it."

More to the point, the influence of propranolol seems to be limited to new, emotional memories – and only if taken during or shortly after a traumatic event.

"The (memory-dampening) effects (of beta blockers) are rather weak," said Larry Squire, a neurobiologist at UCSD and the Veterans' Administration Medical Center in La Jolla. "And no one can imagine possibly tinkering with memory that represents our personal identities, memories of childhood, our connections to people and the past. Those are transformed over time. They're hard-wired in our brains and can't be fooled with."

But some researchers aren't so sure. In animal studies, neuroscientists like Joseph Ledoux at New York University say they have found evidence that there is a window of opportunity to alter a memory each time it is recalled.

Specifically, lab rats were trained to expect an electric shock when they heard a particular tone. The rats soon froze in fear whenever they heard the tone, even if no shock followed. Then the NYU researchers backed off, allowing the rats' brains to consolidate the memory, to embed it long-term. Days later, they played the tone again, eliciting the fearful response. But this time, some of the rats were given a drug that prevented the amygdala from making proteins necessary for memory storage. These rats stopped being fearful of the tone, apparently forgetting their earlier emotional response to it.

Other studies, blocking protein production in the hippocampus of crabs and chicks, produced similar results.

Karim Nader, an assistant professor of psychology at Montreal's McGill University who participated in the NYU rat research, believes there may be a human corollary to these animal studies and a potential opportunity to influence deeper, older memories when they are recalled, and then laid back down.

But the idea is highly controversial, with many skeptics.

"It's likely that any effects are reversible, temporary," said Squire. "You may be able to bring up a memory, weaken it, but eventually the memory comes back. The effect is more like interference than real change."

"I simply do not believe the (NYU) research is valid," added McGaugh. "Human studies have shown no such effect. They show human memory doesn't work that way."

Fact and fiction

McGaugh and similarly minded researchers doubt science will ever be able to probe an individual's mind, precisely plucking and altering specific memories like they do in movies. The brains of real people are far too complex. Memories aren't single molecules or neurons, but intricate patterns of biochemical and electrical energy occurring in various parts of the brain and different levels of the mind.

Take, for example, new findings from Michael Anderson and John Gabrieli, psychology professors at the University of Oregon and Stanford, respectively. Last month, they reported identifying the brain mechanism that allows humans to voluntarily block unwanted memories.

"Often in life we encounter reminders of things we'd rather not think about," Anderson said. "We have all had that experience at some point – the experience of seeing something that reminds us of an unwanted memory, leading us to wince briefly – but just as quickly to put the recollection out of mind. How do human beings do this?"

Anderson and Gabrieli discovered that when people consciously determine not to think about something they do not want to remember, their ability to recall that memory gradually weakens. Call it motivated forgetting.

The effect, said McGaugh, is not unlike what propranolol does biochemically and it fits neatly into what's known about how PTSD can progressively worsen with each recurrence of the traumatic memory.

How Anderson and Gabrieli's work can be exploited therapeutically, if at all, remains to be seen.

Currently, the pursuit of memory-altering drugs is limited, both in terms of the numbers of researchers involved and in what they are trying to do or learn. Prospects of a pill-to-forget hitting the market anytime soon are nil.

But even the existence of that prospect raises profound questions that demand answers, said Dr. William B. Hurlbut, a consulting professor in biology at Stanford University and a member of the President's Council on Bioethics.

"The pattern of our personality is like a Persian rug," Hurlbut said. "It is built one knot at a time, each woven into the others. There's a continuity to self, a sense that who we are is based upon solid, reliable experience. We build our whole interpretation and understanding of the world based upon that experience or on the accuracy of our memories.

"If you disrupt those memories, remove continuity, what you have is an erosion of personhood."

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/m ... gs_sd.html
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby undead » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:46 pm

'Eternal Sunshine' drug selectively erases memories

* 17:52 23 October 2008 by Ewen Callaway
* For similar stories, visit the The Human Brain Topic Guide

For those haunted by thoughts of an old flame or a tragic accident, the chance to selectively erase memories might be tempting.

Now scientists have moved a step closer to that possibility by wiping away a month-old memory in genetically engineered laboratory mice, while leaving other memories unchanged.

The researchers boosted levels of a protein called α-CaMKII involved in memory storage and retrieval, just as mice recalled the pain of receiving a light shock. This had the effect of dispelling the memory.

"I don't think it's possible to use our method in humans, whether it's now or in the future," says Joe Tsien, a neuroscientist at the Medical College of Georgia in Augusta. "But it does suggest that perhaps you can look into downstream targets [of α-CaMKII]. Maybe some pharmaceutical company is looking at that."
Shattered belief

Tsien's experiments aren't the first to raise the prospect of selective memory erasure.

Several years ago, researchers showed that injecting mice with a drug that stops new proteins from forming can block an old memory as it is recalled.

And last year, another team found that inhibiting a specific protein can erase old memories, even without recalling them.

These experiments have helped shatter the century-old belief that memories are an indelible anatomical feature of the brain, says neuroscientist Todd Sacktor, of SUNY Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, New York. Rather, memories are the stuff of molecular connections, constantly built and destroyed by specific enzymes.

"There are actually key molecules that have specific role in long-term memory," he says. "It's a real big shift in thinking."
Shock treatment

Based on previous experiments that showed that α-CaMKII was important to a cellular phenomenon thought to underlie memory formation, Tsien's team bred mice engineered to make extra levels of the enzyme. His team could return their α-CaMKII levels to normal by giving the mice a drug that blocked only the engineered copy.

To test the effect of the change, Tsien and colleagues at the East China Normal University in Shanghai gave mice a slight shock in a training chamber while playing a loud tone.

With thoughts of a jolt fresh in their brain, mice with normal levels of α-CaMKII froze up when they returned to the chamber an hour later, while mice with boosted levels remained calm.

Even a month after the shock - enough time for mice to store the memory for good - cranking up α-CaMKII eroded all memories of the shock treatment, Tsien's team found.

The memory also seemed completely lost, not temporarily unavailable. Six weeks after the initial conditioning and two weeks after the initial erasure, engineered mice treated so they expressed normal levels of α-CaMKII could not retrieve memories of the shock.
Value of recall

Tsien's team is still trying to explain how turning up a single protein can erase specific memories, but he thinks the protein weakens brain cell connections that were built up when the memory was first made.

"This paper is a real revolution in how we think about long term memory," says Sacktor, who last year showed that blocking an enzyme called PKM-zeta erases long-term memories in rats, while leaving their ability to form new ones unchanged. It is not yet clear which route to memory removal will prove most useful in humans, he says.

Tsien, however, cautions against applying his team's results to expunging thoughts of broken hearts or limbs. "All memories, even very painful emotional memories, have their purposes. We learn from those experiences to avoid making the same kind of mistake."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... ories.html
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby Peregrine » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:47 pm

undead wrote: I was under the impression that telling lies made one a liar. I guess if you really believe the lie hard enough, that makes you something else? Like, ignorant and afraid, perhaps? I apologize, really this person is just ignorant and afraid and making off-topic noises.


You are being rude & uncivil & came in personally attacking. You've already been warned. Twice.
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby undead » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:48 pm

Drug prescribed for PTSD raises concerns

Associated Press / August 30, 2010

WASHINGTON — Thousands of soldiers suffering from PTSD have been given a potent antipsychotic called Seroquel over the last nine years, helping to make it one of the US Department of Veteran Affair’s top drug expenditures and the No. 5 best-selling drug in the nation.

Several soldiers and veterans have died while on the medication, raising concerns among some military families that the government is not being upfront about the drug’s risks. They want Congress to investigate.

Andrew White returned from a nine-month tour in Iraq beset with signs of post-traumatic stress disorder: insomnia, nightmares, constant restlessness. Doctors tried to ease his symptoms using three psychiatric drugs, including Seroquel.

His nightmares persisted. So doctors recommended progressively larger doses of Seroquel. At one point, the 23-year-old Army corporal was prescribed more than 1,600 milligrams per day — more than double the maximum dose recommended for schizophrenia patients.

A short time later, White died in his sleep.

An investigation by the Department of Veterans Affairs concluded that White died from a rare drug interaction. He was also taking an antidepressant and an anti-anxiety pill, as well as a painkiller for which he did not have a prescription.

Spending for Seroquel by the government’s military medical systems has increased more than sevenfold since the start of the war in Afghanistan in 2001, according to documents obtained by the Associated Press.

The drug’s potential side effects, including diabetes, weight gain, and uncontrollable muscle spasms, have resulted in thousands of lawsuits.

Last year, researchers at Vanderbilt University published a study suggesting a new risk: sudden heart failure.

It found that there were three cardiac deaths per year for every 1,000 patients taking anti-psychotic drugs like Seroquel. Seroquel’s unique sedative effect sets it apart from others in its class as the top choice for treating insomnia and anxiety.

AstraZeneca, maker of the drug, said it is reviewing the study. The FDA is conducting its own review.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washi ... _concerns/
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby SonicG » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:48 pm

dada wrote:One other thing, in relation to the original post, I think to get the most benefit from psychedelic substances, you need to first be psychologically sound. Whatever that means. There's this whole 'healing through psychoactive drugs' trend nowadays. Like the ibogane movement. Ibogaine is a rite of passage thing, but in the West it's billed as a trip that not only mitigates the symptoms of kicking dope, but turns junkies off to junk, maybe forever. I don't know... Not saying it doesn't help junkies get through the worst part of kicking, but it just seems to me that it's more like a vacation than a magic cure-all. And you're not going to get the full experience, like you would if you were already whole and exploring your consciousness, instead of doing it in a psychologically fragmented state and looking for healing. Same with the ecstasy. The fact that it's being used in a treatment setting already screws up the potential action of the drug. In my opinion, of course.


Yeah, well, opening up a can of worms with "psychologically sound" issue...I believe that the original research in the '60s showed a great deal of lasting positive effects with LSD-psychoanalysis treatment for alcoholics until it was all quashed by making entheogens, including naturally occurring ones, Schedule A substances. If by the "recent trend" of healing with psychoactive drugs, you mean prozac and all of its brethren then I would have to say that a strong argument can be made to separate those from true entheogens. As a friend once cogently pointed out to me, "drug" is a misnomer- there are "pharmaceuticals", that is, substances created by humans, now mostly by corporations with the goal of long-term sustained sales. The idea that naturally occurring substances can be used only a few times to provide long-term relief and solutions is of course so anathema to the pharmaceuticals for profit mindset that I feel a bit silly having to point it out.
There are of course no magic cure-alls, especially since our current post-modern state of capitalism continually pushes for atomization and seeks to create a form of schizophrenia that actually benefits consumerism and all of its associated ills. Organizations like MAPS are nothing less than revolutionary in proposing that there are, in fact, alternatives to long-term pharmaceutical addiction as this could, in some small way, point people towards thinking of what true sustainability in all aspects of life entails.
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby undead » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:51 pm

SonicG wrote:Organizations like MAPS are nothing less than revolutionary in proposing that there are, in fact, alternatives to long-term pharmaceutical addiction as this could, in some small way, point people towards thinking of what true sustainability in all aspects of life entails.



Thanks. By the way, I don't work for MAPS and I am not affiliated with them in any way, unless you count buying a MAPS sweatshirt a couple of years ago. I wouldn't want anyone to associate my rudeness with the wonderful people at MAPS. I've just seen Rick speak in public recently, when he announced the results of the first MDMA trial.
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby Jeff » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:01 pm

undead, I'm suspending your account for a week, for persisting with personal attacks after having received public and private warnings about making uncivil postings.
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby compared2what? » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:37 am

PW wrote:
undead wrote:It is not the same. It is completely different. This person is comparing unethical military experimentation on non-consenting captives in Israel, to privately funded voluntary scientific research in the United States.


I didn't read her as conflating the two, not at all. Besides, such a statement ignores the sophisticated discernment of the RI membership when it comes to recreational drugs.


No, that's not what I understood her to be saying either.

undead wrote:This would be a great discussion for another thread, but it has nothing to do with American veterans getting treated for PTSD with MDMA. :threadhijacked:


It plainly goes to the subject in that it's a consideration of the potential uses and abuses of MDMA by the state. And guess what? This is a discussion forum, not a lecture forum. So you don't actually get to dictate which considerations are legitimate and which are not. There's certainly nothing wrong with calling another person's attention to an error of fact in his or her post, if there is one, or doing it passionately, or -- for that matter -- going all out making it clear why you object strongly to the things you find strongly objectionable.

What's off-topic is this kind of baseless and speculative ad hominem assault on someone for contributing what she had to say to the thread without rancor and in good faith:

undead wrote:This is a primitive attempt to conflate legitimate research with something unspeakably terrible, probably because this individual is a religious fundamentalist who doesn't like the idea of MDMA. Because they admit freely that they don't know a thing about it except that they think it causes people to be promiscuous. Here's an idea, if you don't know anything about a subject, you shouldn't post about it.


And here's another idea. If you feel you need to know why someone posted what she did, try asking her not telling her. Because she would know. And you wouldn't.

undead wrote:edited to add:

So far in this thread, the discernment hasn't been very sophisticated. Or rigorous, for that matter. Just a bunch of hot air with no citations and bullshit propaganda about ecstasy harming your teeth. What is called "ecstasy" is not MDMA. People who know what it is don't call it that any more. So to say that ecstasy harms teeth is specious repetition of disinformation, and irrelevant to this conversation.


People sometimes say specious things and even potentially dangerous specious things out of totally innocent and even virtuous motives. It's not a crime. For example.

BTW, I get carried away and jump to conclusions and post things that are more hostile, or more overwrought, or more personal, or more havoc-wreaking, or more [UNFORTUNATE AND UNDESERVED QUALITY OF YOUR CHOICE HERE than they needed to be too. Which I try not to do and which I very much regret when it happens. But it does happen, and I hope people don't regard it as criminal on my part any more than I do on yours. Which is not at all.

So I look forward to seeing you here sometime soon, I hope.
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby wordspeak2 » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:37 am

Well, anyway, thank you, SonicG, for noting that, "Organizations like MAPS are nothing less than revolutionary in proposing that there are, in fact, alternatives to long-term pharmaceutical addiction as this could, in some small way, point people towards thinking of what true sustainability in all aspects of life entails."

The research that was going on into the myriad medicinal uses of psychedelics in the sixties was extremely promising and wide in scope. LSD shown to cure alcoholism in a single dose! Imagine if that kind of thing were allowed to take place in society. We would witness an *entirely* new landscape. It's a horrible blemish on the record on western science that this research was halted by draconian drug prohibition, while pharmaceutical mind control drugs were allowed to thrive. Ibogaine can indeed end cocaine and heroin and heroin addiction. etc.... These substances are *so powerful.* They represent the exact opposite of the pharmaceutical drugging and alcoholization of society that we have now under the Brave New World. The therapeutic applications currently being investigated are the tip of the iceberg of possibility.
MDMA is not my favorite psychedelic, btw, it's just a unique one with very overt healing potential. I still have a very hard time imagining it being used with any success by spooks, since it brings out feelings of love, creativity, and empathy, and little else, and I still haven't seen evidence of it being used by bad guys, though I don't doubt that they've tried everything. After having read the excellent book, "Acid Dreams," it's apparent to me that the spook world eventually gave up on that one, as well. Also, if you look at it closely, what the CIA eventually decided to do was put out *bad acid,* acid laced with speed. That's what played a major role in ending the sixties' momentum, and destroying the Rolling Stones' free concert at Los Alamos, in particular. I don't think the CIA is out there using LSD as an espionage tool or for anything today. On the contrary, it has incredible positive therapeutic potential, and is being explored by good guys, as it were. Psychedelic mushrooms and DMT represent an even vaster world of possibility. Having explored these substances a lot personally, I think they hold a key to the salvation of the human condition. I think anyone who goes deep with these particular substances comes to a similar conclusion. And in the news just yesterday:
'Magic mushrooms' ingredient beneficial to cancer patients, report says
http://mobile.latimes.com/wap/news/text ... tle=Health

This is really historic stuff. There's a re-mainstreaming of research into the power of psychedelic compounds. I think the world needs nothing more.

And, hava1, I didn't personally attack you (or at least intend to). It's just that the notion of not having an opinion on drug criminalization is ridiculous, IMO. The "Drug War" is one of the, if not the greatest, tool of oppression of the fascists. The criminalization of magical plants is so absurd one doesn't even know what to say about it. Furthermore, drug prohibition has created a vast criminal underworld from which intelligence agencies and organized crime profit enormously. And it's almost single-handedly created a prison-industrial complex that amounts to modern slavery for black people especially, with about six million people currently caught in the U.S. criminal justice system, practically every single one of them poor, and a vastly disproportionate number people of color. This modern drug prohibition, and to not have an opinion on it, in my opinion, is de facto to support it.
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby jam.fuse » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:17 am

The criminalization of magical plants is so absurd one doesn't even know what to say about it. Furthermore, drug prohibition has created a vast criminal underworld from which intelligence agencies and organized crime profit enormously. And it's almost single-handedly created a prison-industrial complex that amounts to modern slavery

I think you answered your own question.

Perhaps a trifle OT: Anyone here have any knowledge of the toxicity/side effects of ketamine?

(I know google is my friend... but the brain trust here is rather formidable)
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby wordspeak2 » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:14 am

Wait, what was my question?

I've never done ketamine, personally, and I'm not particularly interested, but I have read testimonies about it having a lot of value in certain therapeutic cases. Most people I see doing it, though, are just fooling around, and aren't going anywhere spiritually with it. I'm not an expert on it, really, but my understanding is, well, it' s a very strong tranquilizer, so I think it's okay in moderation, but toxic if used a lot. As someone else noted, erowid is a very useful source: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine.shtml
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby hava1 » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:24 am

wordspeak2 wrote:
And, hava1, I didn't personally attack you (or at least intend to). It's just that the notion of not having an opinion on drug criminalization is ridiculous, IMO. The "Drug War" is one of the, if not the greatest, tool of oppression of the fascists. The criminalization of magical plants is so absurd one doesn't even know what to say about it. Furthermore, drug prohibition has created a vast criminal underworld from which intelligence agencies and organized crime profit enormously. And it's almost single-handedly created a prison-industrial complex that amounts to modern slavery for black people especially, with about six million people currently caught in the U.S. criminal justice system, practically every single one of them poor, and a vastly disproportionate number people of color. This modern drug prohibition, and to not have an opinion on it, in my opinion, is de facto to supp


no offence taken, i still dont have an opinion and cannot form one under threats or swearing.
My take on the world is usually based on experience. I did not experience recreational use. I did experience drugging as part of abuse. I take it to be a limited perspective, but still valid for that situation. I believe there is no real challenge here to the notion that drugging someone without consent is criminal and more so, if the goal is criminal to start with (rape, exploit, experiment on). My point was very clear. The two issues overlap in real life, but not theoretically). Even if MDMA is terrific cure for veterans, I dont see why research on that very good cure is exported to countries were safety and human rights are not preserved. I believe that PTSD and exportation to Israel of research, is such one case, and MDMA among others. Its very possible that the payout for the good hearted Israeli gov (allowing the VA and NIH to experiment here) was a "charter" to traffick in ecstasy. I am not going to try and prove that, of course I cannot.

another important point, IMHO, is chemical therapy for PTSD. I dont agree that its always advisable, as I dont see anything ALWAYS good for EVERYONE, in medicine and especially mental and emotional problems. Also, I really really am surprised to see all this blind faith in the good will of the VA, re combat PTSD. Sorry, I dont share that confidence. But that again is another issue. I think some people here, on their way to conquer a desired goal (legalizing MDMA for their own fun use) are willing to break some eggs, regretfully, those are already broken eggs. I find that disappointing, but not surprising.
Personally, and on account of my very narrow experience I dont do drugs, and I dont like drugs, but I also dont like sea food and antibiotics, I try never to consume them and I would not want anyone forcing me to consume them.
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Re: Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

Postby dada » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:54 am

SonicG wrote:
Yeah, well, opening up a can of worms with "psychologically sound" issue...I believe that the original research in the '60s showed a great deal of lasting positive effects with LSD-psychoanalysis treatment for alcoholics until it was all quashed by making entheogens, including naturally occurring ones, Schedule A substances.


There were many studies on LSD in the treatment of alcoholism done in the 60s. Some say it is highly successful, some don't. Something related I found interesting, was the follow up to the Concord Prison experiment, done 25 years later, iirc? Turned out that the recidivism rate was not as positive as initial outlook had hoped... the conclusion was that without ongoing support, and hard work, one or even many psychedelic trips will not necessarily have a lasting positive effect. This is why I feel Ibogaine treatment is a vacation; once people go back to their lives and routines, any insight from the trip is put to the test, and unless someone is willing to really change their lifestyle, and probably their relationships as well, etc, they will fall back into old patterns.

I think that whatever you go looking for on a trip- healing, illumination, whatever - you'll find it, but it is ephemeral. Best bet is to go in not looking for anything, just exploring. Then you may find something of lasting value. Something that will always be unexpected, because you have no expectations.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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