Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

[barracuda]

We are talking about competing risks here. The risks of vaccination vs not vaccinating, not just for individuals but for a community.

You are the one bringing up the risk for the community. I'm talking about the risk for individuals, and an individual's right to raise their children without having the government force them to have their children vaccinated. I'm not even going to deny that this can be detrimental to public health aims, because it obviously can be. This should be an incentive for drug companies to develop safer vaccines, because if people don't have a choice then then can put whatever garbage they want in them. Some people don't want to vaccinate their kids, for whatever reason. Usually it's on spiritual or religious grounds, or because they are skeptical (in the non-Orwellian sense) of the conventional wisdom. Harping on the threat to public health is the job of a government propagandist or industry hack.

You are the one using scare tactics and insinuating. Like, insinuating that people who don't vaccinate their kids are "putting us all at risk", which is a tactic straight out of Time magazine. As far as the "mercury militia" talk goes, that is obviously pre-packaged propaganda, and doesn't serve any function other than to make the discussion retarded.

That's Joe you're quoting there, undead, not me. Regroup.

[undead]

Well, sorry about that, Joe. I still think you're a tool, barrcauda, because you do harp on the public health threat dutifully just like all the industry hacks do.

[slimmouse]

I guess when it comes to vaccination and autism this argument is reasonably framed.

But the entire idea of injecting mercury into someones system as part of a cure ?

Everyone knows that smoking is bad for you. Drinking is bad for you. They put that on the label. Even vitamin supplements are bad for you according to the latest legislation.

But vaccinations ? Where are the fukn health warnings with this multi-officially-endorsed- forcibly-induced-by -vaccination toxin ?

How about Ritalin, or Chemo or any of the thousands of "medicines" officially endorsed by the bought and paid for associations that tell you that black is white in the interests of a holiday in Malibu and a fat cheque ?

In the words of barracuda.......i could go on ...but bah...

[undead]

Concerning the original question, whether or not Wakefield committed a massive fraud, I would like to point out that this has little to no relevance to questions about the safety and efficacy of vaccines, other than showing that anyone who challenges the conventional wisdom will be relentlessly smeared in a personal way.

[Occult Means Hidden]

Barracuda provided a link stating that mercury has been out of vaccines for the last ten years at least. Can anyone provide a link stating that mercury is still in wide use vaccines?

[undead]

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/ ... y-vaccines

Is thimerosal still in the vaccines that children receive?

Currently, all pediatric vaccines in the routine infant immunization schedule are manufactured without thimerosal as a preservative. As of January 14, 2003, the final lots of vaccines containing thimerosal as a preservative expired.

Other vaccines (for example, influenza vaccine; tetanus and diphtheria vaccine for older children and adults) continue to be manufactured with thimerosal as a preservative—although influenza vaccine without thimerosal preservative is also available.

Trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine (TIV) has recently been recommended for all children 6-23 months of age, in addition to the long-standing recommendations to give TIV to children and adults with certain medical conditions as well as older adults.

Thimerosal-free TIV is not available in the United States. However, TIV is available both with trace amounts of thimerosal and with thimerosal as a preservative.

The amount of thimerosal in current influenza vaccines is so low that it should not raise concern. The concern in 1999 regarding thimerosal in childhood vaccines was for their administration to infants in the first 6 months of life and reflected the possible cumulative total ethyl mercury burden from all the thimerosal-containing products administered at newborn, 2, 4 and 6 months of age.

For a current listing of the mercury concentration in most U.S. licensed vaccines, you can access the website of the FDA or the Johns Hopkins University Institute for Vaccine Safety.

The U.S. Institute of Medicine (IOM) of the National Academy of Sciences—a private, independent organization created by the federal government to be an adviser on scientific and technological matters—has established an independent expert committee to review immunization safety concerns, including thimerosal in vaccines.

On October 1, 2001, the IOM Immunization Safety Review Committee issued its report “Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Neurodevelopmental Disorders,” concluding, “The hypothesis that thimerosal exposure through the recommended childhood immunization schedule has caused neurodevelopmental disorders is not supported by clinical or experimental evidence”.

Since that review, several new studies have looked for, but not found—an association of thimerosal exposure with autism and other developmental disorders (see References).

In 2004, the IOM Vaccine Safety Committee again began a review to consider any possible associations between vaccines and the occurrence of autism. The 2004 report, “Vaccines and Autism” states that “the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism.”

The mission of the National Network for Immunization Information (NNii) is to provide the public, health professionals, policy makers, and the media with up-to-date, scientifically valid information related to immunization to help them understand the issues and to make informed decisions.

The National Network for Immunization Information (NNii) is an affiliation of the Infectious Diseases Society of America, the Pediatric Infectious Diseases Society, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Nurses Association, the American Academy of Family Physicians, the National Association of Pediatric Nurse Practitioners, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the University of Texas Medical Branch, the Society for Adolescent medicine and the American Medical Association.

NNii is a service provided by Immunizations for Public Health (I4PH), a Texas-based nonprofit corporation dedicated to making immunization information available to those who need it.

The Board of I4PH is composed of global health leaders, recognized for their knowledge relating to vaccines and global immunization issues. It has been organized to advance education and science relating to vaccines and immunizations.

[barracuda]

Concerning the original question, whether or not Wakefield committed a massive fraud, I would like to point out that this has little to no relevance to questions about the safety and efficacy of vaccines, other than showing that anyone who challenges the conventional wisdom will be relentlessly smeared in a personal way.

If Wakefield committed a massive fraud, it's hard to view anything Brian Deer wrote as a smear, I'm afraid. Back to square one there.

Well, sorry about that, Joe. I still think you're a tool, barrcauda, because you do harp on the public health threat dutifully just like all the industry hacks do.

Thanks for your wonderful contribution to my understanding of your "position".

[Plutonia]

I guess when it comes to vaccination and autism this argument is reasonably framed.

But the entire idea of injecting mercury into someones system as part of a cure ?

...

Yeah, that's the problem. If you point out that vaccinations don't cause autism, you get painted as supporting every vaccine everywhere for all time amen. Or you get accused of being an industry shill.

It is possible to believe that vaccinations don't cause autism at the same time as believing that vaccinations aren't wholly good, but try to give that position an airing amidst the furor.

Vaccines are dangerous simply because they are potentially a very precise delivery mechanism. That being said, when the smallpox epidemic hit BC in 1865, the settles had access to vaccines that the Natives were denied and the Natives were wiped out, possibly by as much as 90% of their population. At least that's what I read. Who knows except vaccinations were around back then and were considered effective.

[stickdog99]

It isn't. At least in the United States, thiomersal has been systematically removed from infant vaccines for the last ten years.

It's still in Hep B and all multivial flu vaccines (often the only ones available). So the question remains: Why? Why are we continuing to inject millions upon millions of people with thimerosal?

[stickdog99]

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/thimerosal-mercury/mercury-vaccines

The amount of thimerosal in current influenza vaccines is so low that it should not raise concern.

LOL. Based on what? The concentration of mercury in a thimerosal-laden shot of influenza vaccine is such that if you diluted the 0.5 ml dose with 2 quarts of water it would still qualify as toxic waste by EPA standards. If it's in the needle, it's a panacea we need to protect our loved ones. If the needle breaks. it becomes toxic waste.

[stickdog99]

If Wakefield committed a massive fraud, it's hard to view anything Brian Deer wrote as a smear, I'm afraid. Back to square one there.

Massive fraud? Let's be blunt here. From a strictly scientific POV, this was a study of 12 cases subjects that proved nothing except perhaps the need for further research. And as far as I can make out from Deer's rambling hit job, Wakefield is being accused of cherry picking data so that his results met with the requirements of certain court cases he hoped to profit from. Whether he fudged the onset of symptom dates (which seems to be the heart of Deer's new "explosive" allegations, but please correct me if I'm wrong), hardly matters from a scientific POV. It would call into doubt Wakefield's integrity, of course, but it really would not change the conclusions of the study one iota.

[stickdog99]

I guess when it comes to vaccination and autism this argument is reasonably framed.

But the entire idea of injecting mercury into someones system as part of a cure ?

...

Vaccines are dangerous simply because they are potentially a very precise delivery mechanism. That being said, when the smallpox epidemic hit BC in 1865, the settles had access to vaccines that the Natives were denied and the Natives were wiped out, possibly by as much as 90% of their population. At least that's what I read. Who knows except vaccinations were around back then and were considered effective.

So, now it was the vaccinations rather than differences in natural immunity that wiped out the Native Americans? Damn! So vaccines can now go back in time to save our forefathers? Is there anything these modern wonders of medical health can't do?

[slimmouse]

So, Mercury has systematically been removed from vaccines - and thats official - and yet, there it is, as large as life it seems in every other fukn vaccine .

Thats not to mention any other number of toxins.

I posted a link a while back now, listing the toxins in vaccines injected into newborns. The sample selection was subsequently, proportionally multiplied by body/mass amount etc. A substantial reward was then offered for any GP who would consume the said amounts.

Im not sure about vaccines personally. But I think its pretty damn reasonable to harbour a shit load of suspicion.

More extreme opinions on the subject may suggest that this is all part of the dumbing down process of the masses.

Whatever your opinions on that may be, the irrefutable fact is that big Pharma is far more interested in treatment as opposed to cure.

Death to the truly useless eaters (Those who cant afford modern miracle treatment). Slow death, under the guise of modern miracle medicine to the rest ( those who can ) ?

Look at the legislation folks. We will vaccinate you from birth We will tax you for the rest of your lives to stay well. We will monopolise natural vitamin and herbal cures.

That surely cant be true can it ?

Coming from the same people who tell you that 9/11 is the truth.That war is peace. That the TSA are there for your own protection ? That the financial crisis is the result of our own frivolent stupidity ? That the federal reserve is doing a great job ? That Israel is good and Iran is bad ? That food price increase hikes are neccessary. That Carbon taxes, and the billions involved setting this up and in subsidies for the poor corporations having to bear the burdens of the costs of change are vital because no natural energy alternatives are available.

I could go on........but bah.......

[Plutonia]

So, now it was the vaccinations rather than differences in natural immunity that wiped out the Native Americans? Damn! So vaccines can now go back in time to save our forefathers? Is there anything these modern wonders of medical health can't do?

You missed the point. Whether or not vaccines are safe may have more to do with the context ie time, place and recipient population, than anything else. In other words, vaccines are not monolithic, as in not_one_thing.... whereas the Mercury Militia do seem to be, no matter where you find them. Weird that.

[Joe Hillshoist]

The only thing clear to me at this point is that Deer cherry picked his case against Wakefield at least as much as Wakefield cherry picked his case against MMR.

Yeah that may be true, but the consequences for other people of Deer cherry picking his case aren't necessarily the same as the consequences of Wakefield doing it are they?

Really? So the fact that Deer's inquisition of Wakefield has killed the first and only controlled study of vaccinated vs. non-vaccinated primates is of no consequence to anyone? While I am on this subject: WHY THE FUCK DID IT COME DOWN TO WAKEFIELD AND CREW TO FINALLY PERFORM SUCH A RUDIMENTARY TOXICOLOGY STUDY?

Thats a fair point, I dunno why it fell to them.

As far as I'm concerned this whole issue and thread is a dogmatic shitfight.

I mean FFS ... ok look at what happened with the swine flu vaccination in Australia. Horrible reactions in children and dosing children under 5 was then banned. Even then the percentage of reactions were low, but it was stopped.

That certainly doesn't help the situation does it. Would you give your kid a swine flu vac after that? No fucking way and fair enough too.

Here's my big problem with vaccination "science" in general. Conventional wisdom says that the reward always exceeds the risk. Because of this, no real, hard science studies have ever been undertaken to actually quantify the risks or the rewards.

Thats a fair point and I agree. Especially in light of the swine flu thing last year.

And the first study done on primates was just singlehandedly squashed by Deer's seven plus year crusade against Wakefield.

I don't think they actually stopped the study. I thought it had been completed but no one wanted to publish it.

If they have then it'll see the light of day unless they don't want it to.

If they needed to they could always upload to Cryptome, wikileaks or its many imitators. These days if you want to badly enough you can put any info into the public domain and use it.