"Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

[hanshan]

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One of the interesting things is that on the guys Facebook page, he was a fan of Max Manus, who was the leading Norwegian Resistance fighter against the Nazis during WW2. Norway brutally was occupied and utterly outgunned, but this guy really helped them 'punch above their weight'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Manus

Manus was a specialist in sabotage - if this guy was 'emulating' him, there may have been sabotage somewhere in the communication chain.

I heard this datum was missing from the edited page?

Here (unfiltered google search):

"In the second profile, Breivik’s interest in Winston Churchill and Max Manus, the leader of the Norwegian anti-Nazi resistance, have been deleted, presumably because they don’t fit with the psychological profile that Breivik was a right-wing neo-Nazi who had links with the English Defence League."

http://colonel6.com/2011/07/25/anders-behring-breivik-manufacturing-a-patsy/

ummm...






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[barracuda]

So the question is just why Delta took so long - why they didn't use a helicopter - why they didn't use one of their boats (or have it prepped whilst they were driving), why they didn't... plan ahead.

I guess it's obvious that I really think you have to analyze the logistics here. Where was the Delta helicopter? Rygge, as far as I can tell. How far away is that? What would be the prep time? What would be the flight time to Oslo? Would they have been automatically prepped as soon as the bomb went off? Maybe, maybe not. Where were the Delta team? In Oslo, as far as I can tell, at least that's where they left from. Where is the landing pad for the chopper in Oslo? How far is that from the Delta squad? How much time would you save by flying from Rygge to Oslo to Utoya and loading men and equipment in Oslo versus driving straight to Utoya? How are the RHI boats transported? Helicopter? Trailer? Where are they stored? With the chopper, or somewhere else? Do they require significant prep once they are transported, i.e., do they need to be inflated, or can they be chopper airlifted in the inflated state? There's a lot of variables here.

[MacCruiskeen]

Apparently police-force budget cuts ground their sole observation helicopter over the summer weeks.

But Delta don't use that. It's not appropriate. That's why they have their own. [...]

Thirty-six of them, to be precise. Most of them heavy-duty search-and-rescue choppers.

Yes, the police took a long time to reach the island, but they knew that Special Forces were going there, and to take out someone dressed as the police. They were all waiting for Delta.

So the question is just why Delta took so long - why they didn't use a helicopter

That's it. In a nutshell. But NB, tazmic: Delta is itself a special ("elite") part of the police force, though very closely allied to the military - and therefore so well-equipped with helicopters, precisely in case of emergencies.

So whoever's in charge of Delta should be forced to answer some very serious and specific questions at that inquiry. (Not to mention whoever's in charge of whoever's in charge of Delta. And so on.) Plus the relevant active liaison officers of the Royal Norwegian Air Force. And the responsible "mere mortal" (i.e., non-elite, non-Delta Force) police chiefs should of course be forced to explain their repeated misleading claims to the press and therefore to the public.

Presumably all of these people have names.

[MacCruiskeen]

So the question is just why Delta took so long - why they didn't use a helicopter - why they didn't use one of their boats (or have it prepped whilst they were driving), why they didn't... plan ahead.

I guess it's obvious that I really think you have to analyze the logistics here. Where was the Delta helicopter? Rygge, as far as I can tell. How far away is that? What would be the prep time? What would be the flight time to Oslo? Would they have been automatically prepped as soon as the bomb went off? Maybe, maybe not. Where were the Delta team? In Oslo, as far as I can tell, at least that's where they left from. Where is the landing pad for the chopper in Oslo? How far is that from the Delta squad? How much time would you save by flying from Rygge to Oslo to Utoya and loading men and equipment in Oslo versus driving straight to Utoya? How are the RHI boats transported? Helicopter? Trailer? Where are they stored? With the chopper, or somewhere else? Do they require significant prep once they are transported, i.e., do they need to be inflated, or can they be chopper airlifted in the inflated state? There's a lot of variables here.

barracuda, several of your questions have already been answered upthread.

Either you are not reading this (very short) thread before clogging it up with questions that have been answered already -- or with yes-buttery and concern-trollery and homework assignments for other people (rather than endeavoring to research some relevant information yourself, if it's in fact available to any of us mere mortals) -- or else you are just plain ignoring the information already posted, and I don't know why you would do that.

[barracuda]

Actually, I didn't put that information into my post because I assumed everyone reading the thread already knew those answers. Nonetheless, they affect the logistics of the response.

[tazmic]

So the question is just why Delta took so long - why they didn't use a helicopter - why they didn't use one of their boats (or have it prepped whilst they were driving), why they didn't... plan ahead.

I guess it's obvious that I really think you have to analyze the logistics here. Where was the Delta helicopter? Rygge, as far as I can tell. How far away is that? What would be the prep time? What would be the flight time to Oslo? Would they have been automatically prepped as soon as the bomb went off? Maybe, maybe not. Where were the Delta team? In Oslo, as far as I can tell, at least that's where they left from. Where is the landing pad for the chopper in Oslo? How far is that from the Delta squad? How much time would you save by flying from Rygge to Oslo to Utoya and loading men and equipment in Oslo versus driving straight to Utoya? How are the RHI boats transported? Helicopter? Trailer? Where are they stored? With the chopper, or somewhere else? Do they require significant prep once they are transported, i.e., do they need to be inflated, or can they be chopper airlifted in the inflated state? There's a lot of variables here.

All good secondary questions, (although I suspect the 675HP boat could be transported... in the water). But I'd just like to say that asking them doesn't imply belief in a conspiracy:

"...that the significance in terms of changing the effectiveness of the shooter's results would have been enough to warrant considering a conspiracy obvious" [from the other thread]

And perhaps a lot of antagonisms could evaporate (hey, on the forum generally) if such prejudices weren't projected onto people's questions.

[barracuda]

Fair enough, but are we having these forty page conversations about the issue simply because we feel the police weren't quite as effective as they should have been? If so, then I agree 100%. I wish entirely that the shooter could have been stopped as soon as humanly possible so that every life that could have been saved, was. But that's obviously not why we are discussing this. We are looking to see if this was or was not a false flag attack by examining the minutia and particulars of the police response along with a variety of other issues. I don't think this is a projection, but I could be wrong. It's happened before.

[MacCruiskeen]

these forty page conversations

This thread is not a forty-page conversation -- demonstrably not, though demosntrable facts just annoy you --, and it need not become one unless you insist on making it so.

The other thread is not even a conversation, it is a sixty-page mess administered by you. That's why i started this one: to address ONE topic without distractions, timewasting, or conceited and irrelevant interventions.

We are looking to see if this was or was not a false flag attack by examining the minutia and particulars of the police response along with a variety of other issues.

SPEAK FOR YOURSELF. NOT FOR ME. I started this thread, and I have never once used the term 'false flag attack' anywhere in the context of the Norway massacre(s), and neither has anyone else, or at least not in this thread, as you very well know. Except you.

- Back on topic, hopefully, unless I get suspended by the moderator for lèse-majesté.

[barracuda]

My mistake, then Mac. I was under the impression that you felt that someone in the police chain of command had possibly affected the outcome of the incident by deliberately disrupting the normal response of the police in some way. If you are simply saying it's a shame the response couldn't have been faster, then I have no argument with that.

[stickdog99]

i have Norwegian friends and have traveled there when i was younger, mostly hitchhiking and they're the some of most mild mannered, laid back people i've met. even their business culture reflects this. it's a big country with very few people. the population of Oslo is half a million. consensus is a big deal there. i think comparing and evaluating their institutions and culture on imperial US or British templates tends to bring confusion. the police patrol unarmed. watching NRK live feeds after the attacks you'd see people walking up to officers on patrol in groups and applauding. there is criticism by hardliners who want things to be more action packed and hollywood-manly (which i suspect will happen) but mostly people are proud of how they handled things.

People are proud it took 78 minutes for the police to get to Utoya?

hiya ..., i was reporting on what i saw on the NRK livefeed or the norwegians. you want to take it up with them? or are they part of your grand conspiracy scenario too? or is it just that going around slinging shit is part of your mode of being, cause you've been doing it for quite some time? what kind of satisfaction do you get from it?

edit: deleted a bit of namecalling, but i do find the overly snide self-satisfied remarks a lot more offensive. IMO. (Thanks Ahab.)

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Look, the US media told us that everyone in the US was insanely proud of how Bush responded to 9/11.

[vanlose kid]

^^

you're a genius. what can i say?

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[stickdog99]

Fair enough, but are we having these forty page conversations about the issue simply because we feel the police weren't quite as effective as they should have been? If so, then I agree 100%. I wish entirely that the shooter could have been stopped as soon as humanly possible so that every life that could have been saved, was. But that's obviously not why we are discussing this.

Speak for yourself, please.

[barracuda]

Clarify your position then, if you dare.

[vanlose kid]

Fair enough, but are we having these forty page conversations about the issue simply because we feel the police weren't quite as effective as they should have been? If so, then I agree 100%. I wish entirely that the shooter could have been stopped as soon as humanly possible so that every life that could have been saved, was. But that's obviously not why we are discussing this.

Speak for yourself, please.

wait a sec, are you saying that the only reason you've been calling people "apologists for ze kops" etc. was not because you thought the delayed response was due to inside shenanigans, and that all you've been doing was bemoaning the delay? seriously?

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[stickdog99]

My mistake, then Mac. I was under the impression that you felt that someone in the police chain of command had possibly affected the outcome of the incident by deliberately disrupting the normal response of the police in some way. If you are simply saying it's a shame the response couldn't have been faster, then I have no argument with that.

False dichotomy.

I'm not saying it is a shame. I'm saying it is a fucking outrage that requires a full explanation. Those who have gone to extreme lengths to dismiss this outrage in order to protect their own meta-analyses of this event quite frankly disturb me.