Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

[km artlu]

It's a notable sync to see this robust thread underway here at RI, while elsewhere in my personal digital neighborhood this is also current:

http://secretsun.blogspot.com/

[Novem5er]

Can you see the Southern Cross from Rome?

Using the same site (http://fourmilab.ch/yoursky/) I plugged in the coordinates for Rome and looked south to see their current sky. This is the southern view from Rome in 2016, just before sunrise:



No Southern Cross, (aka Crux) to be seen. We can just see Centaurus, though, its nearest neighbor. We are too far north and the horizon blocks the view of Crux.

However, I have heard of something called the Procession of the Equinoxes which means that our viewable area of the night sky changes over the centuries due to the wobble of earth's axis. So, I changed the date on the Fourmilab site to 1721781.7 Julian Day, which is Christmas Eve, Dec. 24 year 1 AD. http://bowie.gsfc.nasa.gov/time/julian.html



Do you all see Centaurus right in the center of the frame? Guess what constellation is hidden in its loins, right behind whatever green hills are that horizon (it auto generates a random horizon every time the image loads)? Yes, Crux. If we were to get on the highest hill of Rome and look south, then yes, I believe you would see Crux just skirting the horizon every night during the age of Antiquity.

Of course, the Roman empire stretched much farther than Rome itself. So what if we head a little south?

Here is Cairo, Egypt today in 2016. You can just see Crux cresting the southern horizon.



Now here is Cairo, Egypt, Dec 24 year 1 AD:



Wow! We can see the entire constellation of Crux, just as they would have seen it every night traversing the southern horizon. I'm actually blown away by this. I've heard of this idea, but I'd never sat down and looked into it myself.

[Novem5er]

It's a notable sync to see this robust thread underway here at RI, while elsewhere in my personal digital neighborhood this is also current:

http://secretsun.blogspot.com/

'Tis the season.

I'm not sure if any of the above images would be useful for future articles, but you are welcome to think upon them. It's all open source information and anyone, please, check my work. Here's the link to the Night Sky viewer: http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/Yourhorizon and here's a Julian Day calculator to accurately adjust the dates to go back thousands of years: http://bowie.gsfc.nasa.gov/time/julian.html

Merry Christmas (or is it Easter?) . . . it's a little confusing now.

[Laodicean]

[Joe Hillshoist]

Wow. That is interesting about the view from Cairo.

I would say Cairo is right on the limit for seeing Crux tho.

Even where I am, about 28deg S (so approximately as far south as Cairo is north give or take a few deg) Crux isn't visible all year round.

it is a fascinating thing tho and a great find.

I read in a stupid new age book once that there is a similarity between the time Jesus was dead and the initiation period for ancient Egyptian priests. One of the contentions of the book was the Jesus story was a corruption of Egyptian initiation myths or that Jesus was acting in their tradition. FWIW

I'll see if I can find the book lying around.

[OP ED]

The Bible suggests that he was educated in Egypt.

[KUAN]

Merry Christmas (or is it Easter?) . . . it's a little confusing now.

Surely you wouldn't want him hanging on the cross over Christmas

It may be the silly season that no one believes in but it's our* silly season that no one believes in

Seasons Greetings Everyone at R.I.

*whatever

[Luther Blissett]

How did Matthew remember everything? All the dialogue. Did he keep a diary? Did he wear a wire?

[Novem5er]

Wow. That is interesting about the view from Cairo.

I would say Cairo is right on the limit for seeing Crux tho.

Even where I am, about 28deg S (so approximately as far south as Cairo is north give or take a few deg) Crux isn't visible all year round.

it is a fascinating thing tho and a great find.

I read in a stupid new age book once that there is a similarity between the time Jesus was dead and the initiation period for ancient Egyptian priests. One of the contentions of the book was the Jesus story was a corruption of Egyptian initiation myths or that Jesus was acting in their tradition. FWIW

I'll see if I can find the book lying around.

Yes, see if you can find the name of the book. I'd be interested in finding a copy for myself.

About Cairo (and even Rome), I think it's fascinating that Crux was MUCH more visible in those locations about 2,000 years ago. Somewhere I read that the ancient Greeks divided their constellations into two categories, heavenly (?) and those of the underworld (cthonic?). The separating line was the elliptic, or the path that the sun traces over the sky. Crux would have been a constellation of the underworld and everything that went with that designation. I'm not sure if the Athenians could see Crux from their mountaintops (I'd have to run the numbers again), but it's an interesting theory that the cross has long been a symbol of the underworld.

And interesting that the Sun sinks lower and lower towards it as the months go by, until it halts it southward journey on the solstice, which is the 21st or 22nd every year. It's also very interesting that the birth of Christ is roughly three days later and the sun moves more northward away from the cross.

The Bible suggests that he was educated in Egypt.

It's interesting exactly how much Egypt had an influence on the people and events of the Bible, huh?

[OP ED]

It's all about Nahushtan.

[Novem5er]

It's all about Nahushtan.

I'd never heard about Nahushtan. That's really interesting. I'm not sure what to think about the Old Testament, other than that it's a collection of Hebrew mythology that is little different from that of other ancient cultures. Half of my problems with Christianity are with the Old Testament and the way that so many Christians interpret it literally and then just shrug their shoulders at how unjust the old God seems. They point to the Book of Job and ask who am I to say what is good and what is just.

Back to Jesus, I was thinking the other day that I really like to imagine him as some wandering wizard: spreading knowledge, performing wonders for the downtrodden, giving encouraging words of hope, and fighting the forces of darkness where he can.

I might be thinking of Gandalf, though

[OP ED]

Wikipedia it. Jesus thought Nahushtan was important. His following and/or fanboys like myself, should listen. I have quoted relevant portions somewhere here before.

[Novem5er]

Wikipedia it. Jesus thought Nahushtan was important. His following and/or fanboys like myself, should listen. I have quoted relevant portions somewhere here before.

I did the wikipedia thing and learned the basics. I'll dig a little deeper. Serpents and snakes are such interesting symbols, often treacherous and equally often holders of wisdom.

[Elihu]

✟
“For by him were all things created that are in heauen, and that are in earth, visible and inuisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.”

Colossians 1:16

[dada]

✟
“For by him were all things created that are in heauen, and that are in earth, visible and inuisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.”

Colossians 1:16

Hare Krishna.

Reminds me of this, from the Srimad Bhagavatam:

"The Lord, whose activities are always spotless, is the master of the six senses and is fully omnipotent with six opulences. He creates the manifested universes, maintains them and annihilates them without being in the least affected. He is within every living being and is always independent." SB 1.3.36


But check this out:

"In the fifteenth incarnation, the Lord assumed the form of a dwarf brāhmaṇa [Vāmana] and visited the arena of sacrifice arranged by Mahārāja Bali. Although at heart He was willing to regain the kingdom of the three planetary systems, He simply asked for a donation of three steps of land." - SB 1.3.19

That has nothing to do with anything, I just love that verse.