Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby brekin » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:43 pm

liminalOyster » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:48 am wrote:I don't claim to really understand Milo. But I personally don't think it's wise to slot him too quickly or easily into one of our existing villain archetypes. In the very nature of what is innovative about his schtick, I suspect we would also find what is potentially most extreme and most dangerous. His new video, Milo Begins Construction on the Wall is a pretty striking mashup of forms, manners, signifiers that emerges as an extremely homo-eroticized new paean to ethnic nationalism in the form of a LCD dubstep video. It's stupid, sure but are people really entirely ready to say this is all just a new skin on an old ideology rather than a formidable new (and deadly) thing? I'd hope the Dark Enlightenment has made us more respectfully wary of futurist white nationalism's potential appeal...


The problem is Milo is a product of the Left and the Left has become too intolerant and myopic to see it. He's the culmination of Lenny Bruce, Richard Pryor, George Carlin, Eddie Murphy, Bill Hicks, Sam Kinison, Louis C.K., Denis Leary (who ripped off most everyone else on the list), Andrew Dice Clay, Dennis Miller, David Cross, David Chapelle, Colbert, Eddie Izzard, Bill Maher, etc.
He's a shock jock political comedian who is playing a part of the one who trespasses on the "taboo subjects". Basically three decades worth of political correct indoctrination. Which for all its positives, also has huge logical gaps, group think, and catechisms that are to be taken on faith, and never, ever questioned.
What has happened is the Left has become self absorbed, monolithic and vain it can't take any dissent or criticism, because it sees it as ushering in the Holocaust.
Although, it was so lazy and self absorbed that it allowed the Holocaust to be voted in. Ok, not exactly, but you get my drift.

If you find Milo racist, misogynistic, sexist, homophobic, etc. then most of the above comedians also are to varying degrees, but did so in the name of liberal, progressiveness. He's just unapolgetically flipping the script on the usual targets and as it is more fun, and more media grabbing to play the villain he goes after the low hanging fruit with aplomb. The real problem are the minority of his fans who take his shtick as gospel and extrapolate out, and those protestors (a form a fandom) who are so fearful that people can't think for themselves and an hour with Milo will create an army of alt right robots. (Which betrays there thinking about human choice.) The problem is the more they make someone like Milo taboo, and his ideas verboten, the more he will be appealing to the young and seem to be risque and challenging the status quo.



barracuda wrote:If fascism could be defeated in debate, I assure you that it would never have happened, neither in Germany, nor in Italy, nor anywhere else.
Frank Frison, Holocaust survivor

Only one thing could've stopped our movement - if our adversaries had understood its principal and from the first day smashed with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement.
Adolf Hitler


Sounds like Hitler is recommending The Final Solution to prevent The Final Solution from ever happening.

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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby American Dream » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:58 pm

brekin, it sounds like you might have your own version of "neither right nor left", which is to seek out the moderate (and mythical) middle. I don't think you actually can be neutral on a moving train.
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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:04 pm

brekin, it's true that what passes for left politics in the US nowadays is mainly just shallow teevee spectacle and liberal snark. But it would be nice if you would stop pretending to be any kind of leftist and stop telling the left what it's doing wrong, as if you cared. You went on the record here only a couple of days ago, describing socialism as "taking other people's money".
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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby brekin » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:11 pm

American Dream » Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:58 pm wrote:brekin, it sounds like you might have your own version of "neither right nor left", which is to seek out the moderate (and mythical) middle. I don't think you actually can be neutral on a moving train.


I disagree, as I can neither push nor pull the train as it is moving, I can be neutral.
Also, moderation is hardly mythical.
Although it depends on your point of view and who is observing you.
I refer to Einstein, not Zinn, on this.
Also, all the moderate Berkeley students who didn't try to attend or protest Milo's speech and were instead busying studying, fornicating, drinking and gaming.

Image

It seems it would be better if you just started the thread, "Who's side are you on?"
So we can then classify people to what type they are.
Not having people classified can create anxiety.

MacCruiskeen » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:04 pm wrote:brekin, it's true that what passes for left politics in the US nowadays is mainly just shallow teevee spectacle and liberal snark. But it would be nice if you would stop pretending to be any kind of leftist and stop telling the left what it's doing wrong, as if you cared. You went on the record here only a couple of days ago, describing socialism as "taking other people's money".


Jeez, golly, what bonafides and tests must I show and undergo, to show my leftist credentials, and that I care? An oath maybe? A party card? Sell 100 subscriptions of the Daily Worker? Will you then release me from this unapproving limbo of thinking, sniff, I'm not any kind of leftist, and sniff, I don't care?

Image

I don't remember describing socialism as "taking other people's money". I don't think I did, do you have the post? I mean I could. Capitalism is also "taking other people's money". All economic systems are forms of "taking other people's money".
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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:39 pm

Considering Milo's entire purpose in arranging his speaking tour is to evoke such performances from demonstrators who innocently protest the campus hosting his message as well as violence from those whose purpose is to violently "shut it down." And just because it's Berkeley, home to radicals of all stripes, doesn't automatically preclude agents provocateur were engaged by Milo. Or by his supporters, for Milo to maintain his plausible deniability.

I doubt he's got one speech written to present, let alone one for each campus with each having a more powerful message. He is getting the result he'd planned for. The Left are degenerate brutes intent on disruption through destruction. All, one flavor.

The best thing for peaceful demonstrators to do if violence begins is to isolate the troublemakers, even by rapidly disassembling, if warranted.
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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby brekin » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:59 pm

Iamwhomiam » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:39 pm wrote:Considering Milo's entire purpose in arranging his speaking tour is to evoke such performances from demonstrators who innocently protest the campus hosting his message as well as violence from those whose purpose is to violently "shut it down." And just because it's Berkeley, home to radicals of all stripes, doesn't automatically preclude agents provocateur were engaged by Milo. Or by his supporters, for Milo to maintain his plausible deniability.
I doubt he's got one speech written to present, let alone one for each campus with each having a more powerful message. He is getting the result he'd planned for. The Left are degenerate brutes intent on disruption through destruction. All, one flavor.
The best thing for peaceful demonstrators to do if violence begins is to isolate the troublemakers, even by rapidly disassembling, if warranted.


Milo has said a few times about the Berkeley incident (of course with the nudge nudge caveat, "Not to get into conspiracy theorizing") that the police seemed to have had a stand back and "let it happen" orientation. Also, security (often having to be paid for by the hosting groups) and campus security do even less. So, I don't doubt there aren't plants/moles/agitators in various protest groups (there always are, sometimes the most militant members). But I would be surprised (but not shocked) though if the provocateurs were engaged by Milo. I mean there are enough people who hate Trump enough to destroy anything associated with him for free and the usual rabble rousers (genuine and fed funded) to push the agenda into ultra violence.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby Heaven Swan » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:45 pm

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/46372.htm

The Berkeley Incident

By Mike Whitney

February 03, 2017 "Information Clearing House" - "Counterpunch" -

Why did President Donald Trump fire off an angry and threatening tweet early Thursday morning following the violent protests that had broken out the night before on UC Berkeley campus? Here’s a copy of Trump’s tweet:

“If U.C. Berkeley does not allow free speech and practices violence on innocent people with a different point of view – NO FEDERAL FUNDS?”

Maybe the impulsive President was just angry that a controversial, rightwing speaker like Milo Yiannopoulos was unable to deliver his presentation because masked agitators began to rampage across the campus breaking windows, burning signs and wreaking havoc. That’s certainly one possibility, but there are other more intriguing explanations that seem equally likely.

Consider this: Like most Americans, Trump knows that these anarchist groups show up routinely at peaceful demonstrations with the intention of raising hell and discrediting the groups that peacefully assemble to express their opinion on one issue or another. In this case, the protestors had gathered in opposition to a man who seemingly advocates religious intolerance and Islamophobia. Trump was well aware of this.

He also knew that the UC Berkeley Chancellor and his staff did everything in their power to provide security to both the speaker and the groups that had gathered for the event. Check out this excerpt from an article at Bloomberg:

“Some advocates for universities and education said they were surprised by Trump’s tweet…

“I have never seen anything like this,” said John Walda, president of the National Association of College and Business Officers. “Why would you infer that you want to punish a university” when it was only trying to protect people. The university “did exactly the right thing,” he said…

The university said Chancellor Nicholas Dirks had made clear that Yiannopoulos’ “views, tactics and rhetoric are profoundly contrary to those of the campus,” but that the university is committed to “enabling of free expression across the full spectrum of opinion and perspective” and condemned the violence.

Berkeley seems to have done everything it can to protect students’ First Amendment rights, Cohn said.”

(“Trump Threatens U.C. Berkeley Funding Over Violent Protests“, Bloomberg)

So if the Chancellor had already gone the extra mile to protect free speech, then why did Trump decide to lower the boom on him? Was he genuinely angry with the Chancellor’s performance or did he interject himself for political reasons? In other words, how did Trump stand to benefit from getting involved in this mess?

Isn’t his tweet crafted to win support from his red state base who identify Berkeley with the erratic behavior of the “loony left” that burn flags, spit on veterans, and hate America? Isn’t it designed to discredit the millions of liberal and progressive protestors who have peacefully participated in pro-immigration demonstrations or anti-Trump marches across the country? Isn’t Trump’s interference intended to make him look like a strong, decisive leader willing to defend free speech against hypocritical leftists thugs who violently oppose anyone who doesn’t share their narrow “librul” point of view. Isn’t the action part of a broader plan to reinforce a stereotypical view of liberals as sandal clad, fist pumping, Marxist firebrands who want to burn down the country so they can create their own Soviet Utopia?

Isn’t this really why Trump decided to parachute into the event, to enlarge and polish his own image while exacerbating existing political divisions within the country?

Trump’s reaction to the incident in Berkeley is worth paying attention to if only to grasp that –what we are seeing– is not the random act of an impulsive man, but a governing style that requires an identifiable threat to domestic security, “the left”. A divisive president only prevails when the country is divided, when Americans are at each others throats and split between Sunni and Shia. That’s the goal, driving a wedge between people of differing views, exacerbating historic animosities in order to enhance the authority of the executive and usurp greater control over the levers of state power.

Once again, we’re not excluding the possibility that Trump’s tweet may have been a “one off” by an impulsive man but, by the same token, it might be an indication of something more serious altogether.

Keep in mind, that Trump’s chief political strategist, Steve Bannon, is a man who produced documentary movies on Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, and Occupy (Wall Street). According to Salon:

“Bannon does not hide his affinity for propaganda. He has cited as an inspiration Nazi propagandist and filmmaker Leni Riefenstahl. She famously directed “Triumph of the Will,” a film commissioned by Adolf Hitler in 1933 that portrays Germany as a country returning to world power.” (“Three lessons we learned about Steve Bannon from this weekend’s New York Times and Boston Globe profiles “, Salon)

So at best Steve Bannon is a public relations magician and at worst an unapologetic propagandist. But what is so telling about Bannon is his position in the administration. Bannon occupies the seat closest to the throne which shows how much emphasis Trump places on image, public perception and narrative. Bannon is Trump’s most trusted ally, the spinmeister whose job it is to create the Great Leader who is admired and loved by his loyal base but feared and despised by his enemies. All of this fits seamlessly with Trump’s Berkeley tweet.

And it also fits with Trump’s governing style which is geared to deepen divisions, increase social unrest, and create enemies, real or imagined. In this view, Berkeley was just a dry run, an experiment in perception management orchestrated to sharpen Trump’s image as the hair-trigger Biblical father who will intercede whenever necessary and who is always ready to impose justice with an iron fist.

So the masked rioters actually did Trump a favor, didn’t they? They created a justification for presidential intervention backed by the prospect of direct involvement. One can only wonder how many similar experiments will transpire before Trump puts his foot down and bans demonstrations altogether?

Of course, that may very well be the objective.

Mike Whitney lives in Washington state. He is a contributor to Hopeless: Barack Obama and the Politics of Illusion (AK Press). Hopeless is also available in a Kindle edition. He can be reached at fergiewhitney@msn.com.
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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby Project Willow » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:40 pm

coffin_dodger » 03 Feb 2017 07:46 wrote:The ever-present, ever-burgeoning 'criticise my doctrine and you are clearly a nazi and must be outed as one' is everywhere, not just here. It has been spread.


It is everywhere, coming from all directions. I can't think of a single person to whom I look for insight in times of trouble who hasn't taken up at least a tiny corner of the banner over the past couple of weeks. I am now frightened of everyone. EVERYONE.

I do not care why someone peppered sprayed a young woman, or why someone beat on another one, violence like that is NEVER FUCKING OKAY, and if you feel yourself wanting to defend it, think of that as a nice invitation to some form of self reflection.

The world has gone mad, truly. And I should make that my sig line to save myself typing it over and over, as I expect I will need to do from here on out.
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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby 8bitagent » Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:19 am

I noticed to, Milo's book interest has shot to #1 on Amazon, and the Berkeley incident has become quite a talked about event...I guess having both the college kids and hardcore neo nazis after Milo is good for business
Last edited by 8bitagent on Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby elfismiles » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:24 am

CNN Guest: Berkeley Rioters Were Actually Secret Right-Wingers Affiliated With Breitbart
by Alex Griswold | 9:40 am, February 3rd, 2017

On CNN Thursday, UC Berkeley professor and former Democratic Secretary of Labor Robert Reich suggested the anti-Trump riots on campus were actually a right-wing plot to delegitimize liberals.

“I was there for part of last night, and I know what I saw and those people were not Berkeley students,” Reich said. “Those people were outside agitators. I have never seen them before.”

“There’s rumors that they actually were right-wingers. They were a part of a kind of group that was organized and ready to create the kind of tumult and danger you saw that forced the police to cancel the event,” Reich insisted. “So Donald Trump, when he says Berkeley doesn’t respect free speech rights, that’s a complete distortion of the truth.”

“You think it’s a strategy by [Milo Yiannopoulos] or right-wingers?” asked host Don Lemon.

“I wouldn’t bet against it,” Reich said. “I saw these people. They all looked very– almost paramilitary. They were not from the campus. I don’t want to say factually, but I’ve heard there was some relationship here between these people and the right-wing movement that is affiliated with Breitbart News.”

Watch above, via CNN.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-guest-be ... breitbart/
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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby seemslikeadream » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:28 am

thank god trumpty dumbty has banned CNN :P
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby barracuda » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:48 pm

More "free speech":

Screen Shot 2017-02-04 at 8.47.05 AM.png
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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby elfismiles » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:14 pm

Why WSOF fighter Jake Shields stepped between a mob and a Trump supporter

WSOF welterweight Jake Shields said he couldn't stand by as masked men beat a Donald Trump supporter during Wednesday's protests at the University of California, Berkeley.

"That's when I had to intervene, because no one is helping the guy, including the police," Shields told MMAjunkie.
...
"I went to try to get police assistance, and they said they wouldn't go in there," he said. "People were getting attacked and beat up."

Shields, 38, had just finished dinner with his girlfriend in the school's vicinity when he saw a man, wearing a Trump hat and "covered in blood," being chased through the streets.

"There were hundreds of them around, with weapons, so I was trying to diffuse the situation with the least amount of effort possible," he said. "Generally, when you throw a punch, guys back off."
...
"I stood around and tried to stop some other people from getting beat, and it just kept getting more and more chaotic, so eventually I left," he said. "There were just too many people and too many weapons, so it was time for me to get out of there. I tried to get the police to do their job, but they weren't willing to."
...
"I don't think those people are capable of rationalizing," he said. "I think they've switched their brains to where if you have a different opinion of them, you're a Nazi. I hate Nazis, too, but who determines what's a Nazi?

"There were hundreds of people cheering on, 'Get the Nazi,' and I went up and started arguing with them. Why's this guy a Nazi? What did he say to make him a Nazi? No one could say."

Shields said he was influenced by his late father Jack Shields' civic activism during anti-war protests in San Francisco in the 1960s, and what he saw bore no resemblance to that ideal.

"I think both sides on the right and left have gone crazy," the fighter said. "I think the left has gone more crazy because they're saying the right is so crazy, but they're the ones stirring up all this chaos."

Although Shields makes a living with his fists, he said dissent should never involve violence.

"You need to have a conversation with people," he said. "Maybe instead of attacking Milo, they should have went in and debated him and say why they don't agree with his issues. Most people want the same thing. They want America to be a better place; they just have slightly different ideas on how it needs to be done."

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mma/why ... ailsignout
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Re: Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:40 pm

And Trump's more than ready to clamp down on dissent and he's being cheered on to bring 'change we can believe' in by the poorly staffed police who, because they're so ill equipped, fear for their lives while facing down these unruly crowds.

Violence only gives birth to more violence. But I'm afraid the violence will escalate before subsiding. The only way to stop most of it would be to stop demonstrating, but that's not realistic. Nor would be a faux demonstration, one planned to flush out and entrap outside agitators.

I certainly can't imagine Trump's response to a true terrorist attack and what consequences that would bring to our civil liberties. I doubt there's ever been a President more ready to mow down dissenters.
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