Huge explosion in Oslo

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:43 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:...

And remember that the whole purported reason for this lengthy delay was that the merely-mortal plods said they had to hang around waiting for the "elite" "anti-terror specialists", "Delta Force", who finally drew up at the lakeside by car, only to spend 15 minutes looking in vain for a boat, any boat, before eventually finding one ("a very poor boat") and then nearly sinking it by overloading it with men and equipment. (Yes, this is in fact the official explanation, and not a Mister Bean script.)

Apparently those hotshots had driven all the way from Oslo without considering the fact that Utoeya is an island, and that every island is located in a body of water, which can't be walked on. Only cynics or conspiracy theorists would deny that it's a mistake anyone could make, even the smartest and spiffiest "elite" inhabitants of that notoriously watery land, Norway.


hyperbole aside, i find that to be a fairly accurate description.

*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:45 pm

lupercal wrote:
The first police patrols began crossing Lake Tyrifjorden at 6.03pm, arriving on the island at 6.25pm.


Let's see, 22 min. to travel 1,600 feet = 0.303030303 miles / 22 min / 60 min per hour = 0.82644628 miles per hour.

0.83 mph. I guess in the fog of war they forgot to bring the inflatable raft paddle?

Fjordman wasn't there to help them.
stickdog99
 
Posts: 6574
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:49 pm

barracuda wrote:
lupercal wrote:
The first police patrols began crossing Lake Tyrifjorden at 6.03pm, arriving on the island at 6.25pm.


Let's see, 22 min. to travel 1,600 feet = 0.303030303 miles / 22 min / 60 min per hour = 0.82644628 miles per hour.

0.83 mph. I guess in the fog of war they forgot to bring the inflatable raft paddle?


Yep. I'm certain the local police were telling each other to slow down so more kids could die. Good point.

How about responding the facts instead of defending the cops who say it took them 22 minutes to travel less than a 1/2 mile while kids were getting shot?
stickdog99
 
Posts: 6574
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:50 pm

lupercal wrote:
StarmanSkye wrote: Tho Breivik's planned-strategy has none of the hallmarks of a cohesive, organized or even well-thought-out plan to galvinize a hardline movement. His choice of targets baffles me.

Bingo. It doesn't need to make sense; in fact, it's not supposed to. Who remembes wtf the Symbionese Liberation Army was all about? The story changes every time I look it up, but everybody remembers Patty Hearst. Ditto the guy who flew into the Texas fed building, ditto McVeigh , Kaczynskii, and Cho, Harris and Klebold for that matter. Add rambling nutjob Zacarias Moussaoui, add the shoe bomber, hell add the 19 hijackers. It never makes a lot of sense but the incoherence is part of the show, also a spook thumbprint at least in my view.


Except it does make sense cos a whole bunch of kids who would otherwise have been the PC leftist race traitors he went on about would still be alive.

Since we had a female PM elected with a hung parliament last year. One who tried to tax the foreign owned mining companies that make billions digging up Australia, and who then tried to put a price on carbon dioxide emissions by industry we have heard a rash of stuff that sounds so like his alleged worldview.

To the point where one of the most Beckian Australian political opinion Muslim bashing trolls has been publishing stuff about the way "All rapes in Oslo are done by foreigners". How the fuck would that prick even know where Oslo is? let alone be alerted to stuff like that?
Joe Hillshoist
 
Posts: 10616
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:45 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:52 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:And remember that the whole purported reason for this lengthy delay was that the merely-mortal plods said they had to hang around waiting for the "elite" "anti-terror specialists", "Delta Force", who finally drew up at the lakeside by car, only to spend 15 minutes looking in vain for a boat, any boat, before eventually finding one ("a very poor boat") and then nearly sinking it by overloading it with men and equipment. (Yes, this is in fact the official explanation, and not a Mister Bean script.)

Apparently those hotshots had driven all the way from Oslo without considering the fact that Utoeya is an island, and that every island is located in a body of water, which can't be walked on. Only cynics or conspiracy theorists would deny that it's a mistake anyone could make, even the smartest and spiffiest "elite" inhabitants of that notoriously watery land, Norway.

9/11 fighter scramble redux
stickdog99
 
Posts: 6574
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:53 pm

stickdog99 wrote:
MacCruiskeen wrote:And remember that the whole purported reason for this lengthy delay was that the merely-mortal plods said they had to hang around waiting for the "elite" "anti-terror specialists", "Delta Force", who finally drew up at the lakeside by car, only to spend 15 minutes looking in vain for a boat, any boat, before eventually finding one ("a very poor boat") and then nearly sinking it by overloading it with men and equipment. (Yes, this is in fact the official explanation, and not a Mister Bean script.)

Apparently those hotshots had driven all the way from Oslo without considering the fact that Utoeya is an island, and that every island is located in a body of water, which can't be walked on. Only cynics or conspiracy theorists would deny that it's a mistake anyone could make, even the smartest and spiffiest "elite" inhabitants of that notoriously watery land, Norway.

9/11 fighter scramble redux


except for the fact that they never scrambled? yes, the difference is more than semantic.

*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby lupercal » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:56 pm

stickdog99 wrote:
lupercal wrote:
The first police patrols began crossing Lake Tyrifjorden at 6.03pm, arriving on the island at 6.25pm.


Let's see, 22 min. to travel 1,600 feet = 0.303030303 miles / 22 min / 60 min per hour = 0.82644628 miles per hour.

0.83 mph. I guess in the fog of war they forgot to bring the inflatable raft paddle?

Fjordman wasn't there to help them.

I'm gonna go with tied up in a phone call from Nancy Pelosi.

Image
User avatar
lupercal
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:06 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:57 pm

Scotland Yard called in over Breivik's claims he met 'mentor' in UK

Europol ask for information because gunman wrote of visiting London for secret far-right gathering in 2002

Vikram Dodd and Matthew Taylor
guardian.co.uk, Monday 25 July 2011 21.05 BST

Police attempting to piece together Anders Behring Breivik's links to far-right groups in the UK and Europe have written to Scotland Yard asking for more officers to help with the investigation.

A specialist unit has been set up in The Hague to trawl through a database of known high-risk, rightwing extremists and assist the Norwegian police as they examine evidence from Breivik's 1,500-page "manifesto" published online hours before he launched one of the worst mass killings in peacetime Europe.

Rob Wainwright, director of Europol, told the Guardian he had written to the Metropolitan police's new head of counter-terrorism, Cressida Dick, asking for more officers from Scotland Yard after Breivik boasted of his links to far-right groups in the UK.

"What we've seen is an active extremist scene across European countries, including the UK," said Wainwright. "There are some signs the extreme right have been more active, especially on the internet. They are more sophisticated and using social media to attract younger people."

There are up to 50 officers already assigned to the specialist unit in The Hague, including a small number of detectives from the UK.

Breivik's alleged links to the UK emerged in his manifesto, which details his years of meticulous planning prior to Friday's attacks. The document was signed "Andrew Berwick" (an anglicised version of his name), written entirely in English, and datelined "London, 2011" – although security services and police say there is no further evidence at this stage to suggest it was written in the UK.

In the manuscript Breivik describes his "mentor" as an Englishman he identifies as "Richard", and says his journey into violent extremism began at a small meeting in London in 2002 where a group of like-minded extremists met to "reform" the Knights Templar Europe, a military group whose purpose was "to seize political and military control of western European countries and implement a cultural conservative political agenda".

The group's name is a reference to the medieval Christian military order involved in the Crusades. It has no connection to the Knights Templar International, a long-established organisation aiming to build "bridges throughout the world for peace and understanding", and which has issued a statement deploring Breivik's "senseless acts of terrorism".

In his manifesto Breivik said the gathering in London was "not a stereotypical 'rightwing' meeting full of underprivileged, racist skinheads with a short temper". Instead, he claimed those present were successful entrepreneurs, "business or political leaders, some with families, most Christian conservatives, but also some agnostics and even atheists".

Breivik said the handful of far-right activists had travelled to London from across Europe, and most had not met each other before. He did not name those present, but claims two of them, including the host, were English, as well as one French, one German, one Dutch, one Greek, one Russian and one Serbian. "They obviously wanted resourceful, pragmatical [sic] individuals who were able to keep information away from their loved ones and who were not in any way flagged by their governments."

At 23 years old, Breivik says he was the youngest person at the meeting, and had first been put in contact with others in the group by a "Serbian crusader commander".

At the end of the sessions, he says, he was "ordinated as the 8th justicar knight for the PCCTS, Knights Templar Europe" – the name he uses to sign off the last entry in his diary before carrying out Friday's attacks.

It was at this meeting that he also claims to have struck up his friendship with his mentor. Breivik says he and "Richard", who took the pseudonym in reference to Richard the Lionheart, had a "relatively close relationship".

According to the document, the meeting in London was followed by two larger events held in "Balticum", which attracted people from all over Europe. He says there was a high level of security at the gatherings, adding that those attending were told not to communicate to people outside.

"Some of us were unfamiliar with each other beforehand, so I guess we all took a high-risk meeting face to face … electronic or telephonic communication was completely prohibited, before, during and after the meetings. On our last meeting it was emphasised clearly that we cut off contact indefinitely. Any type of contact with other cells was strictly prohibited."

Breivik also boasted about links to the UK far-right group the English Defence League. He mentioned them several times in the manifesto and claimed he had "spoken with tens of EDL members and leaders … [supplying] them with processed ideological material (including rhetorical strategies) in the very beginning."

The EDL – which has staged a series of street demonstrations, many of which have turned violent, since it was formed two years ago – issued a statement on Sunday condemning the killings and denying any links with Breivik. It added that the league was a peaceful organisation which rejected all forms of extremism.

Stephen Lennon, the founder of the English Defence League (EDL), last night told Newsnight that attacks like those perpetrated in Norway could happen in the UK in the coming years.

"God forbid this ever happens on British soil. It's a time coming. It's probably five or ten years away," he told Jeremy Paxman during a studio discussion. "It's not a threat, it's a wake-up call. It's a wake-up call to say: Listen, we don't want this to happen. We don't want this to happen.
"

Breivik may have attended a far right demonstration in the UK as recently as last year, according to an online post from one of its supporters reported previously in the Guardian. "[B]ar one or two doubt the rest of us ever met him, altho he did come over for one of our demo in 2010 … but what he did was wrong," said the activist in an EDL forum.

Norwegian supporters have taken part in several EDL demonstrations over the past year but it is unclear at this stage whether Breivik was among them.

It also emerged on Monday that Breivik made contact with EDL members for the last time as recently as March, just before he holed up on a remote farm to begin his final preparations for an Friday's attack.

In the closed court hearing on Monday, Breivik claimed he belonged to an organisation with two more cells that remain at large, although he did not give more details. Wainwright, the Europol director, said police were working flat-out to try to establish whether Breivik had help from far-right groups and activists in the UK and across Europe.

"We're pursuing a number of lines of inquiry. It is difficult to tell if he had active support from outside Norway," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... -mentor-uk


*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby wordspeak2 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:04 pm

I fully agree. That official timeline is a joke. The physical distant to get from x to y was very small. However, most if not all of the police were already occupied by the bombing, no? So one would think that a response would be a little bit slower. Thinking about that, too, makes one think there was an empty police office, so easier for whomever was answering the phone to keep the information to himself and delay the process.
But... so- what?- when police get frantic calls about a murder they finish their coffee, call for backup, wait for the backup, take a cigarette break, call for a boat, lazily walk outside, scan the radio for the best music, head off, wait for that boat, make idle chatter with the captain, and then cruise off to that island, going reeeeeaaalllyyy sloooowwwwwllllyyy....? This is believable?

"Yep. I'm certain the local police were telling each other to slow down so more kids could die. Good point."

I don't think that's it, Barracuda. I think the official timeline is a lie. It read like a pathetic lie. It's either that or you're the one believing that the local cops cruised over there at slower than I could doggy-paddle. What's your explanation for that? I fully agree that the rank-and-file cops wouldn't intentionally let people die.

p.s. But I don't see how the extra 16 bodies has anything to do with anything, though I admit it's a little strange. Probably the cops were just careless in making shit up to the media.
wordspeak2
 
Posts: 1209
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:20 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:06 pm

barracuda wrote:Because the more boats there are on the water, naturally the more boats you'll find at the shore.


Ho ho. Very droll. The point is that boats (including motorboats) can often be found on lakesides in Northern Europe, especially close to popular holiday islands, and were indeed demonstrably on that lake. But maybe the Norwegian police can't even afford megaphones, or are too lovably slow and "naive" to work out how to use them.

The more important point is that "elite" "anti-terror" "Delta Force" hotshots from the world's richest & rainiest country, who are allegedly in a big hurry and allegedly intent on saving lives, don't normally have to turn up lackadaisically at a lakeside keeping their fingers crossed they'll find some kind of a boat belonging to somebody else so they can somehow, eventually, cross that weird unfamiliar wet stuff and reach their destination (least of all a "much too poor boat" after 15 minutes searching in vain).

And certainly not when they're on high alert after the bombing of the government quarter and 90 minutes late for an ongoing massacre of hundreds of young people who are whispering frantically into their cellphones and wondering, with increasing desperation, where the fuck the cops are.
Last edited by MacCruiskeen on Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

TESTDEMIC ➝ "CASE"DEMIC
User avatar
MacCruiskeen
 
Posts: 10558
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:47 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:07 pm

*

the one cop on Utoya. must have been in on it.

Norway attack victim saved own son before dying

One of Anders Behring Breivik's first gun victims, Trond Berntsen, who shielded 10-year-old, is among names emerging

Lizzy Davies
guardian.co.uk, Monday 25 July 2011 18.11 BST

Image

Trond Berntsen was working as an off-duty police officer on Utøya when Anders Behring Breivik arrived at the shore. Unarmed and unaware of the horror that was about to be unleashed on the island, Berntsen succeeded in protecting his 10-year-old son but could do nothing to save himself. The father-of-two became one of Breivik's first victims when he was shot dead within minutes.

In a sign that the killing spree has left no sector of Norwegian society untouched, the royal court has announced that the 51-year-old was the stepbrother of Mette-Marit, Norway's crown princess.

"The crown princess's thoughts go to his closest family," a spokesman for the palace told Dagbladet newspaper.

As they continued to trawl through water and rubble for the missing, on Monday police said they had reduced the number of people believed to have died in the Utøya massacre from 86 to 68 – the vast majority of them teenagers taking part in a leftwing political summer camp. Eight people, rather than the seven previously stated, had died in the Oslo bomb blast, they added.

A full list of the dead and missing has not been made public. A team of nearly 40 police officers is working to identify all the bodies found so far. However, in his tearful address in the national cathedral on Sunday, prime minister Jens Stoltenberg mentioned the names of several victims known to have been shot dead while at the Labour Party (AUF) youth camp.

One of them, Tore Eikeland, was "one of our most talented youth politicians," he said; a 21-year-old local councillor and the leader of Young Labour in the south-western Hordaland region. At a recent party conference, the prime minister added, Eikeland had been given a standing ovation from the entire auditorium.

The names of other victims – both known and suspected – have been reported locally. Among those still missing yesterday was Hanne Kristine Fridtun, a 21-year-old AUF activist who had made herself known in her local town of Stryn, western Norway, for her social conscience. "I know Hanne Kristine very well. We have had a close political co-operation … so for me it is now completely unreal that she is missing," the mayor of Stryn, Nils P Støyva, told Norwegian broadcasters NRK. Fridtun had shown a touching sympathy for the least well-off in society, he added, and had recently raised awareness of the difficulties faced by disabled people in Stryn. "This is terribly hard for everyone," he said.

She was not the only one to be praised for her political commitments. Eighteen-year-old Tarald Mjelde, Eikeland's deputy who was last night missing presumed dead, was described on a blog by a friend and fellow youth activist as "the little boy with an enthusiasm that infects everyone around you." Erik Dale wrote: "All the people who wish they had your energy. Your eagerness. If you hadn't been such a great little politician, I am sure you could have been an athlete." He added: "You love your football, even if you support the wrong team. How did you end up with Chelsea anyway? Please come home safe so you can tell me. We need you."

One of the youngest feared dead has been named as Johannes Buø, a 14-year-old AUP activist from southern Norway, whose father confirmed he was missing. A Facebook page created for friends, family and well-wishers to write messages of sympathy was filling with tributes. One of them read: "Dear, dear John! It is unreal what has happened. You are an incredibly strong person … We all hope desperately to get you home safe and sound. We hope, light candles and pray for you."

Social networking has also been used to express solidarity for other missing youngsters, including 17-year-old Syvert Knudsen. Some messages were moving in their understanding of teenage troubles. "[It] is sad to think that you always said you were so lonely and that you always were so sad," wrote one friend, Tonje Fredriksen. "Wish you were home and could see how many people think of you, miss you and care. Love you … and I'm not alone."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... -saved-son


*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:07 pm

stickdog99 wrote:
Dradin Kastell wrote:Coming from a similar-sized Northern European country as Norway, with only one dedicated national "heavy weapons"/"anti-terror" police unit, I see the events and the timetable of the Norwegian police response more or less plausible.

Sorry, but I don't buy that you decide not to send the closest cops when you have multiple reports of a single gunman slaughtering a bunch of kids. That is simply not plausible in any way, shape or form.


Wait a minute - where did the reports of two gunmen come from then? Did they start before the guy was busted/stopped?
Joe Hillshoist
 
Posts: 10616
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:45 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:09 pm

stickdog99 wrote:Who benefits when individuals become so radicalized that they are willing to sacrifice their own lives in dramatic and seemingly senseless acts of terror?

Consider the irony: Military leaders in the West have often bemoaned the difficulty in getting Western operatives to give up their lives for the cause, citing this as a key military strategic advantage that Muslim forces have over Western forces.

So who comes to their rescue but an anti-Muslim extremist.

The more I think about this, the more I feel the narrative of the super-powered wingnut lone wolf serves the interests of the global elite. If they can just get a bunch of other wingnuts similarly willing to sacrifice their own lives in the pursuit of senseless, yet highly dramatic terror, they will be able to enact any totalitarian measures they desire with no resistance from either the left or the right.

Note that this guy killed almost 3 times as many people in one day than any single Palestinian suicide attack has been able to kill in Israel.


Exactly that.
Joe Hillshoist
 
Posts: 10616
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:45 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby waugs » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:11 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:
stickdog99 wrote:
Dradin Kastell wrote:Coming from a similar-sized Northern European country as Norway, with only one dedicated national "heavy weapons"/"anti-terror" police unit, I see the events and the timetable of the Norwegian police response more or less plausible.

Sorry, but I don't buy that you decide not to send the closest cops when you have multiple reports of a single gunman slaughtering a bunch of kids. That is simply not plausible in any way, shape or form.


Wait a minute - where did the reports of two gunmen come from then? Did they start before the guy was busted/stopped?


as of Saturday, the Norwegian police said they weren't ruling out the possibility of multiple shooters. I believe it was a Guardian article I had read.
User avatar
waugs
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:22 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:13 pm

vk wrote:the one cop on Utoya. must have been in on it.


Spare us this desperate and arthritic (and tasteless) irony, vk. He wasn't a cop, he was a 51-year-old security guard and former cop, and he was trying, bravely, to defend his young son from the killer.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

TESTDEMIC ➝ "CASE"DEMIC
User avatar
MacCruiskeen
 
Posts: 10558
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:47 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 185 guests