2014 Malaysian Planes Lost: Pacific and Ukraine

[smiths]

in a lot of ways this whole fight is, at the moment, about Germany

Is Germany with the US? Or is Germany with Russia?

Theres people that want to know

[8bitagent]

Well someone just shot down two more planes in the Ukraine/Russian border...so I guess the international outcry did nothing. Russia might be a wedge to the "globalists" but they do a lot of evil. As does Syria(I can't forget that the Syrian government killed like a zillion people just recently)

300 Dutch/Malaysians is nothing to the million and a half Afghans Russia murdered in the 1980s or the tens of thousands of Chechen civlians they massacred. Or all the civilians the Serbs and warring Balkan parties massacred.
Or the countless innocent Muslims the US government and coalition forces killed in the last 13 years of immoral unjustified lie based wars.

So yeah, 300 MH17 victims is sad, as is 700 dead Gazans...but on a numbers game, noone beats the US, Russia, etc. I can't forget that Russia also was the main backer and supplier of arms to the Sudan genocide.
That said, just as the anti Russian finger pointing reached a fever pitch, the US is now all "oh no, it was just separatists and they probably were mistaken". Once again, we pull back from an invisible brink just in time(Watch as Kerry brokers a cease fire in Israel, least til the next flare up happens in 2 years)

And what about the "ISIS taking over Iraq" story?

[8bitagent]

Thanks, Morty. I've been busy offline and unable to follow this story in much detail.

This is from AP, yesterday. Worth reading closely. I quickly gave up bolding the bits where those "senior U.S. intelligence officials" admit they are in fact full of shit -- there are just too many such bits. The cumulative effect is positively comic.

Translation: "This crime is never going to be solved." Quite a remarkably confident statement, wouldn't you say? Is he clairvoyant?

SO BACK TO THE ORIGINAL ORIGINAL TOPIC...WHAT THE FUCK happened to Malaysia 777 MH370???

"This is a world where nothing is solved...someone once told me time is a flat circle...everything we've ever done we're gonna do over and over again"

Eerier words have not been spoken before or since on tv.


Btw July 17th is not only the anniversary of TWA 800, but this too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAM_Airlines_Flight_3054

[stillrobertpaulsen]

Ukraine
July 20, 2014

The Russian Public Has a Totally Different Understanding of What Happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17
And it's more of a problem than you think.

Did you know Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently reinsured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?

Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to [url]provoke[/url] a big war with Russia?

Well, it’s all true—at least if you live in Russia, because this is the Malaysia Airlines crash story that you’d be seeing.

As the crisis surrounding the plane crash deepens and as calls for Vladimir Putin to act grow louder, it’s worth noting that they’re not really getting through to Putin’s subjects. The picture of the catastrophe that the Russian people are seeing on their television screens is very different from that on screens in much of the rest of the world, and the discrepancy does not bode well for a sane resolution to this stand-off.

Western media has been vacillating for days between calling Putin a murderer and peppering their coverage with allegedlys, telling the heart-rending tales of the victims, scrounging for anonymous leaks to link the Russians to the downed jet, and punditizing about exit ramps.

But in Russia, television—most of it owned or controlled by the Kremlin—is trying to muddy the water with various experts who insist that there is no way that an SA-11 missile system could possibly have downed a plane flying that high. And, mind you, this is not part of a larger debate of could they, or couldn’t they; this is all of Russian television and state-friendly papers pushing one line: The pro-Russian separatists we’ve been supporting all these months couldn’t have done this. Watching some of these Russian newscasts, one comes away with the impression of a desperate defense attorney scrounging for experts and angles, or a bad kid caught red-handed by the principal, trying to twist his way out of a situation in which he has no chance.

And that’s when they’re not simply peddling conspiracy theories, which have become a kind of symbiotic feedback loop between state TV and the most inventive corners of the Internet. The best of the bunch is, of course, an elaborate one: MH17 is actually MH370, that Malaysia Airlines flight that disappeared into the Indian Ocean. According to this theory, the plane didn’t disappear at all, “it was taken to an American military base, Diego-Garcia.”

Then it was taken to Holland. On the necessary day and hour, it flew out, bound for Malaysia, but inside were not live people, but corpses. The plane was flown not by real pilots; it was on autopilot. Or take-off (a complicated procedure) was executed by live pilots, who then ejected on parachutes. Then the plane flew automatically. In the necessary spot, it was blown up, without even using a surface-to-air missile. Instead the plane was packed with a bomb, just like the CIA did on 9/11.

The theory also notes that the passports of victims at the crash site all look brand new even though there was an explosion and a fire. “That is, the passports were tossed in [after the crash].” And, most damningly, all the victims’ Facebook pages were created in one day and the media is not showing any of the victims’ families, just the crash site. Though this is not true of Western media, Russian television has not featured any of this. “There’s very little talk about the human cost of this catastrophe,” says independent television analyst Arina Borodina, formerly of the prominent Russian daily Kommersant. “Instead we’re seeing these unbelievable versions. For example, that someone had actually been hunting for the president or that some of the locals saw parachutists coming down from a height of 30,000 feet.”

But though it may look unconvincing to us in the West, that is because we have seen and read other things that contradict it. The Russian media space has become so uniform and independent voices so cowed and marginalized that there is no counterweight and, when there’s no counterweight, if you repeat a thing often enough, it becomes the truth.



This isn’t an innocent you-say-tomato moment; this is a very problematic development. The result of all this Russian coverage is that Russians’ understanding of what happened is as follows. At best, the crash is an unfortunate accident on the part of the Ukrainian military that the West is trying to pin on Russia, which had nothing to do with it; at worst, it is all part of a nefarious conspiracy to drag Russia into an apocalyptic war with the West. So whereas the West sees the crash as a game-changer, the Russians do not see why a black swan event has to change anything or they want to resist what they see is a provocation. To them, after a few days of watching Russian television, it’s not at all clear what happened nor that their government is somehow responsible for this tragedy. And the more we insist on it, the less likely the Russians are to agree.

Floriana Fossato, a longtime scholar of Russian media, says that this, coupled with the media’s conscious use of the Soviet language of crisis—“traitors,” “fascists,” “fifth columns”—quickly brings to the surface the psychological demons of a society massively traumatized by the twentieth century, traumas that society has never adequately addressed. The result, she says, is a kind of collective PTSD-meets-Stockholm Syndrome.

In Russians' view, “Americans have recreated the situation where they have excuse for intervention,” Fossato says. “No one admits that they are afraid, but they are. They are panicked. And they are right in being afraid because they know what happened, and they know there must be an answer to what is going on. And so they lock onto Putin for protection. This is why they don’t turn to Putin and ask him to do something.”

But in addition to the Russian public not clamoring for decisive action from Putin, there is a far more serious problem. As The New Yorker's David Remnick noted in his column on the crash of MH17, Putin has become prisoner to his own propaganda machine, much as he’s become prisoner of the rebels he thought were doing his geopolitical dirty work in Ukraine.

After Putin’s ascent, media became the flexible element that could be readjusted for any twist or turn of the political rudder. “Today, it’s the opposite,” says Gleb Pavlovsky, a political consultant who helped Putin win his first election and was a Kremlin advisor for years afterwards. “It’s almost impossible to turn the rudder of the picture that’s formed on television because it would mean losing the audience they formed in this year” of sword-brandishing and imperialistic conquest.

This audience is now fired up and brandishing its own swords, and the propaganda apparatus, much like the rebels in eastern Ukraine, has rolled on and on, fed by inertia and paranoia, reproducing and magnifying itself with each newscast. The sensationalized newscasts are now neck-and-neck, ratings-wise, with the sitcoms. “It keeps people in a traumatized state,” Pavlovsky says. “It’s notable in media metrics, and in conversations with people. They lose their sanity, they become paranoid and aggressive.”

This has had a noticeable impact on the ruling class, Pavlovsky says, which has to watch this stuff in order to stay au courant. And they become less sane as a result, too, which limits their ability to adequately assess a situation such as this and devise a good way out of it.

“It’s noticeable that the Kremlin is much more tempered than Russian TV but can’t change it,” Pavlovsky says. “It’s fallen into a trap, so it's now trying to function within the strictures of this picture.” He cites the example of the PR contortions the Kremlin had to use just to announce that it would not send troops into eastern Ukraine. “In this seemingly controlled media, any rational political arguments of the state have to be hidden and packaged in idiotic, jingoistic rhetoric,” Pavlovsky says.

None of this looks very good for the West, which is clearly hoping that MH17 is the thing that will bring Putin to his senses and get him to agree to some kind of off-ramp, or, at least, a deescalation. But that’s hard to do if neither your public nor your political class see it as a game-changer or as anything that should force Russia to end this game.

“Of course it gets in Putin’s way. He has to be the hero of this TV material, he’s not free from it anymore,” says Pavlovsky. “I have a feeling he's not very comfortable right now.”

Golly, New Republic, got binary logic? Maybe the real answer lies somewhere between Putin paternalism and the "Western media" salivating over a New Franz Ferdinand Moment. But I had to link this on this thread just for the MH17-MH370 connection.

[Morty]

I often find myself feeling sorry for the guys over at the Saker. I’ve been reading the commentary over there this week. With Putin, they’re like kids watching their father get hauled away in cuffs by the cops, pleading with him to just tell the cops the truth – that they’ve got the wrong guy, and that he didn’t do what he’s accused of. Not that I think Putin is necessarily guilty of that much, but it’s hard to get past the idea that he would have said something more by now.

But it ain't over yet. Yatsenyuk has just resigned.

And, oh, here's the latest Russian military intelligence from facebook (via thesaker). It may not be true, but even if it isn't, it's a ripping yarn nonetheless:

A fuller version of what happened starts emerging piece by piece. First, as I pointed out earlier, in one his daily battle reports, Strelkov or his associates indicated as if in passing that the Malaysian airliner, Boeing 777, was shot down by Ukrainian jet fighters. Then came the briefing by the Russian Ministry of Defense, which showed a Ukrainian SU-25 within 3-5 km from the Boeing at the very moment when the Boeing was hit. In the next four minutes, the Ukrainian fighter remained in the area. At the moment, when the Boeing was hit, it was also within the range of several Ukrainian Buk batteries, which were deployed close to Donetsk and then, just for that very day, 8km south of Shakhterskoye, which is also only several miles from the crash site.

Today (July 23), Anna-News published an interview with a Russian Air Force retired colonel Aleksand Zhilin (Александр Жилин) who is a frequent military commentator on the conflict in Ukraine. The most important information is stated at 2:00-5:00 in the interview.

According to the colonel, at 16:19:45, a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades in the southern pocket by the Russian border.

When, however, the Boeing started to turn in the opposite direction and was still apparently manageable, "the US-Ukrainian headquarters of the special operation panicked and order the Buk battery to destroy the plane in the air in order to pre-empt the possibility of the Boeing's emergency landing." A Buk missile was fired and the plane was then finally destroyed.

The disclosure of the Russian electronic intelligence (in fact, only one part of it) on July 21 put the US against the wall. The existence of this intelligence and other data also means that the US cannot show the real intelligence, which they also have, including the data from their electronic warfare exercise SEA BREEZE 2014 and the data from their spy satellite, which just happened to be over the area during the downing of the Malasysian Boeing.

The other relevant information, which the Russian colonel revealed, was that the Malaysian Boeing was insured for $97 million against damages or losses as a result of military actions.

[ShinShinKid]

Outrage has been expressed in Russia and Ukraine over a young woman who allegedly boasted on her social media site about using looted mascara from the Malaysian air crash site.
Identified as Ekaterina Parkhomenko from Torez, close to where the Boeing 777 hit the ground after being shot out of the sky, she posted a picture of a blue mascara bottle, say reports.
Her Instagram account then carried two selfies taken with an iPhone which were said to show her after she had applied the Catrice mascara.

A young pro-Russian Ukrainian woman from the separatist east region of the country has posted pictures of herself on Instagram claiming that she was wearing make-up looted from the downed Malaysian Airlines flight, according to reports from the region

The woman wrote : 'Mascara from Amsterdam, or rather from the field. Well, I think you know what I mean'

The caption read: 'Mascara from Amsterdam, or if to be precise from the field. Well, you understand.'

When she is asked by her own followers if she was joking - and how she got the mascara - she answered: 'An acquaintance of mine, a looter, gave it to me.'
The woman - her age is not known - describes herself as a 'separatist' who 'feels sick and hates everything Ukrainian'.
Bloggers in both Russia and Ukraine have questioned whether the posting was a provocation amid a huge propaganda war from both sides, but a number of well-known web writers believe it to be genuine and have expressed horror.
The woman's sites seem to have been well established before they were suddenly removed in the wake of the storm of disgust over this posting from both Ukrainians and Russians.
One said: 'It's good that at least you are not finishing their food off... ?'
She replied: 'But if you wish I can send you the food, and knickers....'
Another asked her: 'Are you normal there?'
She replied 'no' - and soon afterwards deleted her Instagram account and her presence on other social media sites as she was faced with a torrent of abusive comments.
Leading Russian blogger Bozhena Rysnka used her Facebook to declare: 'It is lower than low to pick up mascara from the deceased.'
The woman apparently had no sense she had done anything wrong, she said.
Kiev-based blogger Natalia Belous said despairingly: 'And this is a so-called civilian. At least she is not running around with a machine gun.
'Can you imagine what this friend of hers, that 'looter', is like?'
A comment read: 'Even if it is a fake posting - but I don't think so - it is sick, completely sick, from whoever is responsible.'
Earlier this week a picture emerged which appeared to show a ring being taken by a rebel from a body at the crash site.
Meanwhile, an alleged decree by rebel commander Igor Strelkov appears to admit that the bodies of dead passengers were looted by pro-Russian rebels.
The order says that jewellery, watches and other valuables taken from bodies must be handed in to the 'defence fund' of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic by 8pm on Wednesday 23 July.
Styled like other orders from Strelkov, its veracity could not be immediately established.
But if true, it will be seen as scandalous that the rebels are cashing in on the dead victims of the Malaysian plane widely believed to have been shot down by the same pro-Moscow separatists.
Rather than ordering any looted possessions to be returned to the families, it demands they are taken to Strelkov's headquarters so they can be used to fund the insurgency campaign he is conducting.
The text of order number 432, pictured here, says in Russian: 'To all detachments of Donetsk People's Republic army, to soldiers and commanders who from 18 to 21 July 2014 in the area where the Boeing 777 of Malaysian airlines crashed and who possess personal belongings related to this airplane.
'Before 8 pm on 23 July 2014 you must give these things away to the headquarters of DPR army. Valuable items (watches, earrings, lockets and other jewellery) must be sent to the DPR Defence Fund.'
It is signed by rebel army commander Colonel Igor Strelkov, and carries what appears to be an official stamp.
A part of the wreckage is seen at the crash site of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 near the village of Hrabove (Grabovo), in the Donetsk region
A piece of wreckage from MH17 found at the crash site in Petropavlivka, Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine. More large parts of the downed airliner were discovered today as Dutch investigators took charge of the crash site
The alleged order has been posted on social media websites in Ukraine and Russia.
If true, it would confirm claims by Kiev officials that the bodies were looted.
Her shameless display will be seen as yet another slap in the face to victims' relatives, whose loved ones' bodies continued to arrive home today." -- Source: Daily Mail

[Wombaticus Rex]

First world verdict on war zone inhabitants: "It's like they're not even civilized."

Aye, what a penetrating insight. Why doesn't she just buy her mascara at Walgreens like a normal human being? For shame.

What a thin veneer civilization is.

We clutch that bauble so tightly while we've got it, though.

Word to NOLA's Ninth Ward.

[ShinShinKid]

How about Strelkov's order? Don't you think it might p off some Dutch and Aussies?
Also, not all the responses were coming from the cozy confines of first world digs...

[Wombaticus Rex]

It seems to me a girl using looted mascara is considerably better documented than Strelkov's sins, so I responded to that.

Should we expect "more" from soldiers? I don't. That's a shitty, stupid life.

I also don't think anyone in Ukraine right now gives much of a fuck what anyone not currently being shelled/sniped thinks, unless we're talking about the various apparatchiks, both Soviet and NWO, working out their mandates until they get to go back home, either in tatters or in triumph.

I find the fact these people were killed far more egregious than anything that happened to their corpses: then again, not a religous man.

[MacCruiskeen]

I find the fact these people were killed far more egregious than anything that happened to their corpses: then again, not a religous man.

Plus:

1. Their corpses were strewn across a war zone.

2. As far as I can tell (but please correct me -- with the evidence -- if I'm wrong about this), the pro-Russian militiamen treated those corpses with respect, removed them from the 30°C - 34°C heat of the sun in that war-zone, and drove a refrigerated train to that war-zone as quickly as possible to preserve them for decent burial preceded by proper autopsies.

Last but by no means least: They retrieved both the Black Boxes quickly and (as has been confirmed) handed them over to the authorised investigators intact and untampered-with and without significant delay
.
Let me know when US investigators find the eight missing Black Boxes from the four 9/11 flights. It's been 12 years and 10 months now, and -- again, as far as I know -- not one of them has been found yet, not even in that field in Pennsylvania (which was not a war zone). Remarkable. Unique, in fact.

PS After a week of strident warmongering against Russia (ffs), the disgusting German corporate media have gone notably quiet about this topic in the last two days. (Maybe because those black boxes are intact? Time will tell.)

[ShinShinKid]

But before loading those bodies, they stripped them of valuables...it's great to see they haven't lost their touch even since Stalin's times, back to the same old grind(er). I am not going to argue whether it's okay to strip dead people of their things, then post about it, then brag about how you are going to get someone some knickers. Obviously, the "war zone " for her isn't too busy to apply the latest mascara, and look good for daddy, right? Warzone behavior is about survival, what about mascara equates to that? She didn't have any, she needs it survive, right? She's not surviving, she's thriving; she was so poor, that with her wireless laptop,digital camera, posting to Russian facebook, she just couldn't scrape the rubles together to get some cheap makeup...she could of checked Amazon, I think they deliver, no? No, that's pride, and that's why it should not be endorsed.
If perhaps she posted about finally being able to eat, or drink, or anything like that...no, dude, y'all are wrong on this one.
Word to all the poor people neither of us will ever meet...they're actually right down the street.

[MacCruiskeen]

I think it's safe to say that RI is united in condemning the misappropriation of mascara in war zones.

[JackRiddler]

it's great to see they haven't lost their touch even since Stalin's times, back to the same old grind(er).

Oh for fuck's sake.

[zangtang]

hope everyone's beginners Mandarin lessons are going well................

smoike 'em if you got 'em

[Morty]

Detailed article which walks through the MA-17 claims and counterclaims: MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag