Huge explosion in Oslo

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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:16 pm

*

let me try to set my thinking down here. i don't find what happened on the day sus. that's clear. if we're all looking at the same set of facts how come we end up in different places? i think it has to do with the explanatory models we're using.

so what am i arguing against?

this (1) that the whole things was planned and controlled by one or many sinister and invisible hands besides Breivik, i.e. that he had inside support of some sort.

what i think is this (2) that since 9/11 the anti-muslim, racist, nationalist fear mongering rhetoric has not only been ramped up but has become mainstreamed and sophisticated. we saw it in the early expert views on who was behind this. not only that, following up on Breivik's manifesto sources and links shows (at least for me) that his fellow travelers are a lot more common, "civilised" and "academic" than i thought. we're not talking David Duke and the rough and rugged neo-nazi tea-party set. the net is saturated with people like Fjordman, Bat'Yeor, etc. they get their stuff all over the place, even from the daily mail. they've become respectable. Joe and wintler2 talk about the same types at work in Oz. someone posted Glenn Beck's reactions here today. things weren't this bad ten years ago.

what this suggests, to me, is that Breivik was a lone wolf, because the entire way the world has been driven in this direction these past ten years made him possible. he just took what was said to the next level. no conspiracy is necessary if you can find people who are completely committed to the cause they'll act on their own. no connections, no chain of command, nothing. that's "great" for all sorts of reasons including plausible deniability. you never know when or where or who. you just play on probabilities.

(1) is scary, but i find (2) scarier. and that's what i think we're looking at here.

*
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby semper occultus » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:20 pm

random facts :

The Eurozone Heads for Break Up

Nouriel Roubini · June 13th, 2011

www.economonitor.com
Norway is one of very few western European countries not to be a member of the European Union. Norway has held a referendum on the issue of EU membership twice, first in 1972 and then again in 1994. On both occasions, a rather narrow majority of the Norwegian population rejected membership (in 1994, 52% were against and 48% were in favour).

http://www.eu-norway.org/eu/
Oil
According to the Oil and Gas Journal (OGJ), Norway had 6.7 billion barrels of proven oil reserves as of January 1, 2009, the largest oil reserves in Western Europe. Norway produced about 2.47 million barrels per day (bbl/d) in 2008 and consumed about 217,000 bbl/d. In 2008, Norway was the sixth-largest net oil exporter in the world, exporting about 2.25 million bbl/d.

Natural Gas

According to the OGJ, Norway had 81.7 trillion cubic feet (Tcf) of proven natural gas reserves as of January 2009.

Natural Gas Exports
Norway exported about 3.3 Tcf of natural gas in 2008, almost all of it to Europe, via pipeline and a small amount via liquefied natural gas (LNG) tanker. The country is the second-largest supplier of natural gas to the European Union, behind Russia. The largest recipient of Norway's natural gas pipeline exports in 2008 was Germany (932 Bcf), followed by the United Kingdom (893 Bcf), and France (562 Bcf).

http://geology.com/energy/norway/


Breivik's efforts may succeed in doing to the populist anti-EU extreme-right in Scandinavia & - via his oft-mentioned EDL links, Britain - what Manson did for the Peace & Love hippies
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:24 pm

stickdog99 wrote:
Joe Hillshoist wrote:
stickdog99 wrote:
Dradin Kastell wrote:Coming from a similar-sized Northern European country as Norway, with only one dedicated national "heavy weapons"/"anti-terror" police unit, I see the events and the timetable of the Norwegian police response more or less plausible.

Sorry, but I don't buy that you decide not to send the closest cops when you have multiple reports of a single gunman slaughtering a bunch of kids. That is simply not plausible in any way, shape or form.


Wait a minute - where did the reports of two gunmen come from then? Did they start before the guy was busted/stopped?

Fine. Two gunmen. The point is that if I were a cop and I were to get a call that kids are getting indiscriminately shot at by anything less than an armed militia, I would be driving my own ass to the scene ASAP while radioing for as much back up as possible the entire drive.


I agree.

I would be too most likely.


But if you were a cop in charge of other cops you might not.

If you were a cops boss, or a cop higher up the chain of command you might not think that. You might be thinking that there has been a bombing here, then a mass shooting all the way over there. Whats gonna happen when we get there to stop the mad shooting? A nuke in Bergen. Someone kills the royal family?

Its a different level of responsibility to being a cop on the ground at the site of the shooting. Especially when you don't know what is gonna happen next.


IN Australia, and AFAIK this applies to every emergency service in the Western World, if you are in charge then you are responsible for the safety of the people you're in charge of first. And for getting them to do the job correctly. Everything else comes second.

Despite what the movies say no one is expected to send their people into harms way with no specific info on whats going on. You have a boat full of armed men - you send across open water and one or two armed perps then shoot them all in the boat or shoot it with an rpg, which they may well have given there has just been a bombing and what appears to be an organised targeted mass killing. Then you have to dedicate resources to rescuing them and treating them as well as everything else.

Its far easier for a civilian in a boat to take independent autonomous and successful action off their own initiative than it is for an organised hierarchy to do the same thing.

Also people are assuming that cops are some sort of saviours that'll come in and make everything all right.

Fuck if you called the cops where I live and they got here inside an hour I'd be (un?) pleasantly surprised.

People take advantage of the fact that cops are notoriously slow to get anywhere to get stuff done and get the fuck away.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Harvey » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:25 pm

Pierre d'Achoppement wrote:One thing about the picture is the badge on his shoulder which says "Marxist Hunter Norway".

Image

In his video there''s a picture of the same badge only it says "Marxist Hunter England":

Image

So maybe didnt just remove the background with photoshop but also used it to change little details like that.


Another of those strange conicidences, on the badge in the video (above) it reads 08 (19)68.

Police also lowered the previously announced death toll, saying 68 people died on Utøya, not 86 as previously stated. Eight died in the bomb attack in Oslo


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... rror-cells
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:25 pm

stickdog99 wrote:
kenoma wrote:
stickdog99 wrote:According to the current official timeline, it took 97 minutes for the killer to go from placing a bomb in Oslo to killing kids on the island and he took the ferry!


Nobody's suggesting he lit a fuse under the car.

The timeline is:

15:20: A witness observes what he describes as a suspicious-looking man leaving Regjeringskvartalet (the Government quarter), in downtown Oslo.[8]

15:22: A bomb placed in a Volkswagen Crafter goes off in Grubbegata, near the offices of the Prime Minister, and several other governmental buildings.[9]


Again WTF is up with all the apologists for the cops taking 78 minutes to get the damn island with little kids getting shot all the while?


from the same timeline:
17:27: The local police district in Buskerud learn about the shooting, and three minutes later the police in Oslo are informed.[10]

17:38: Northern Buskerud police district ask Oslo police district for assistance.[13] Beredskapstroppen (the Contingency Platoon) is dispatched from Oslo to Utøya.[10]

17:52: The first local police car arrives at Tyrifjorden, but the officers have to wait for a suitable craft before they can cross over to Utøya.[12]

18:00

18:09: The Contingency Platoon arrive, but are also forced to wait for a boat.[9] The boat that is finally provided is too small for the amount of personnel and equipment, and nearly sinks during the crossing.[12]

18:25: The Contingency Platoon arrive on Utøya and go ashore.[11]


that's 58 minutes.

*
Last edited by vanlose kid on Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby kenoma » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:26 pm

semper occultus wrote:
Breivik's efforts may succeed in doing to the populist anti-EU extreme-right in Scandinavia & - via his oft-mentioned EDL links, Britain - what Manson did for the Peace & Love hippies


Which would, of course, be a terrible state of affairs...
Expectation calibration and expectation management is essential at home and internationally. - Obama foreign policy advisor Samantha Power, February 21, 2008
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby barracuda » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:28 pm

justdrew wrote:it does seem like everyone shot has died... which is unusual, but that's a big gun he had.


The police said he was using dum-dum rounds.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby kenoma » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:36 pm

Harvey wrote:
kenoma wrote:
Harvey wrote:
22 february 1933 The begining of the Third reich.

...

Weird huh?


Weird that you would try to rewrite the historical record to liven up an otherwise fruitless wiki-binge.

But it sounds like you're having fun, so carry on.


No I didn't mean that sorry :basicsmile typo. At the begining of etc...


A typo with a hyperlink? How does that happen?

Harvey wrote:I know it's all a complete flight of fantasy, but there was that story last year in Wired magazineU.S. Spies Want to Find Terrorists in World of Warcraft.

Games within games. I just thought I'd play the game for a while and see where it leads.


This is terribly Mrs Lovejoy, I know, but games? For fuck's sake, we haven't had the funerals yet
Expectation calibration and expectation management is essential at home and internationally. - Obama foreign policy advisor Samantha Power, February 21, 2008
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby kenoma » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:42 pm

stickdog99 wrote:
kenoma wrote:
stickdog99 wrote:According to the current official timeline, it took 97 minutes for the killer to go from placing a bomb in Oslo to killing kids on the island and he took the ferry!


Nobody's suggesting he lit a fuse under the car.

The timeline is:

15:20: A witness observes what he describes as a suspicious-looking man leaving Regjeringskvartalet (the Government quarter), in downtown Oslo.[8]

15:22: A bomb placed in a Volkswagen Crafter goes off in Grubbegata, near the offices of the Prime Minister, and several other governmental buildings.[9]


Again WTF is up with all the apologists for the cops taking 78 minutes to get the damn island with little kids getting shot all the while?


Use your head. What kind of moron times a car bomb to go off two minutes after he's planted it?
Expectation calibration and expectation management is essential at home and internationally. - Obama foreign policy advisor Samantha Power, February 21, 2008
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby semper occultus » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:42 pm

.... I presumed I was being clear, perhaps not...
the rise of the populist right represents an actual or potential road-block or reservoir of opposition to the political & economic medicine implied by the euro crisis, particularly if it spreads to Germany which is the key risk
its members are highly motivated & can get people on the streets
they have developed a pan-European identity which serves as an antithesis to that of the official EU Projekt.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:43 pm

We're not defending the cops either, we are pointing out your expectations of what they are capable of may not match reality.

Where do you want me to start with police stupidity or incompetence? Why is it that a bunch of clowns who generally can't find their arses with a handful of bogroll have suddenly become super soldiers?

Reading this thread I'm reminded of people who:

a/ whinge about potholes in the road.

b/ whinge about having to wait on the road at a stop/go sign while a pothole is fixed.

c/ then whinge about council rates or taxes to cover the cost of fixing the potholes.

d/ also whinge about us locals fishing in the potholes while we're waiting for them to be fixed.















d/ is a joke btw.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Harvey » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:44 pm

kenoma wrote:
Harvey wrote:
kenoma wrote:
Harvey wrote:
22 february 1933 The begining of the Third reich.

...

Weird huh?


Weird that you would try to rewrite the historical record to liven up an otherwise fruitless wiki-binge.

But it sounds like you're having fun, so carry on.


No I didn't mean that sorry :basicsmile typo. At the begining of etc...


A typo with a hyperlink? How does that happen?

Harvey wrote:I know it's all a complete flight of fantasy, but there was that story last year in Wired magazineU.S. Spies Want to Find Terrorists in World of Warcraft.

Games within games. I just thought I'd play the game for a while and see where it leads.


This is terribly Mrs Lovejoy, I know, but games? For fuck's sake, we haven't had the funerals yet


My intentions were not frivolous, but the search turned out to be. I was seriously trying to see if there was anything intelligible behind those little details which someone went to great lengths to create and place in front of everyone around the world. Better to find nothing than not to try.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Canadian_watcher » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:47 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:
If you were a cops boss, or a cop higher up the chain of command you might not think that. You might be thinking that there has been a bombing here, then a mass shooting all the way over there. Whats gonna happen when we get there to stop the mad shooting? A nuke in Bergen. Someone kills the royal family?

Its a different level of responsibility to being a cop on the ground at the site of the shooting. Especially when you don't know what is gonna happen next.


IN Australia, and AFAIK this applies to every emergency service in the Western World, if you are in charge then you are responsible for the safety of the people you're in charge of first. And for getting them to do the job correctly. Everything else comes second.

Despite what the movies say no one is expected to send their people into harms way with no specific info on whats going on. You have a boat full of armed men - you send across open water and one or two armed perps then shoot them all in the boat or shoot it with an rpg, which they may well have given there has just been a bombing and what appears to be an organised targeted mass killing. Then you have to dedicate resources to rescuing them and treating them as well as everything else.

Its far easier for a civilian in a boat to take independent autonomous and successful action off their own initiative than it is for an organised hierarchy to do the same thing.

Also people are assuming that cops are some sort of saviours that'll come in and make everything all right.

Fuck if you called the cops where I live and they got here inside an hour I'd be (un?) pleasantly surprised.

People take advantage of the fact that cops are notoriously slow to get anywhere to get stuff done and get the fuck away.



exactly.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby 8bitagent » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:48 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
If the Norway massacre really was a state-supported psyop, then it could turn out to be a highly effective one. For who's going to support The Monster's right to defend his monstrous words and deeds? Certainly not [the remains of] the left, who did no such thing with OBL or with KSM, and who will certainly be even less willing to demand a public platform, i.e. a fair and open trial, for a cartoon SS butcher. If "Al Qaeda" is in decline as a brand and as a cartoon bogeyman (having done sterling service for the last ten years), then The Evil Vikings may well function beautifully as a replacement horror, complete with similar traumatising media images of brutal mass murder. Not least because neo-Nazis, like violent Islamists, undoubtedly exist, and the two of them can be discreetly encouraged and played off against each other endlessly. Maybe, in fact, The Evil Vikings will give The Evil Islamists a new lease of life (if that's the word). And thus [the remains of] the left can be made even more pliable and acquiescent, and absorbed even further into the much more insidious & sophisticated fascism of the transnational anti-Terror security state.

I am scaring myself very effectively now, or else somebody else is. And when we're all scared of everybody all the time, you could call it Mission Accomplished.



Brilliant. Yeah it's like "don't like all these far right and islamist attackers? come to us, we'll protect you!"

FWIW, I went to my local gamestop store and all in a row they had big posters and displays advertising these 5 games coming out soon

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
(what is that, America under civil war?)

Just kind of startled me seeing all the main themes of the Oslo event in your face, plus the killer talks of loving modern warfare series.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby solace » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:48 pm

"German journalist Ulrich Sahm reported on the pro-Israel Israelnetz.com website that many of the youths who survived the massacre said they thought the killer, dressed as a police officer, was simulating Israeli crimes against Palestinians in the occupied territories. They believed that "the cruelty of the Israeli occupation" was being demonstrated to them, Sahm wrote."

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2011/07/camp-play.html
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