zionists vs. truth

[darkbeforedawn]

to clarify a misunderstanding i think has happened; the junkyard in heads refers to whatEVER is between people's ears after all their years and experiences, without judgments of good and bad placed on what's there for our purposes. junkyard means...both the well-informed, logical bits and the innaccuracies
A true marvel of diversion and sheer nonsense....lovely. If I did my best to gum up an argument, I couldn't have done better. Congrats Anna!!!

Joe HS tells us we should ignore zionism because "aboriginal" people are being killed and their land taken away everywhere on the planet.

And Anna says the above--whatever it is... words fail me.
In answer to Joe, I say the following:
I am sorry, but my hardearned tax dollars and everyone elses are going to fund the eradication of the palistinians and support the zionists construction known as Israel. At least I am not paying for what is happening or has happened in Australia.
And yes, Joe, I do think the stolen lands in the Middle East should be returned to their rightful owners.

Thank you again Sunny for your clear statement of why people are stepping so cautiously around this zionism isssue. They don't want to be mistaken for Nazis.
However, at the present rate very soon we will not be able to distinguish either ourselves--as Americans-- or the so called denizens of Israel from the Nazis.
Both cultures are fast approaching this nadir of hatred, murder and moral bankruptcy. I think we should fear this much much more than we fear being mistake for nazis because we deplore the acts of the zionists.
We should fear THE FACT that we are becoming them in reality, much more than we should worry about what people think[i]

[Jeff]

We should fear THE FACT that we are becoming them in reality, much more than we should worry about what people think

I think for the most part we're stumbling over language, but that's no small thing. Language encodes thought, and what people think has caused every atrocity humanity's committed.

Nuance of speech isn't some froofy indulgence while the world burns. It's lack of nuance that lights the fires.

[pitcairn]

hey all

just catching up ... quite a lot to read since last I checked in ...

reading this thread after it received so many new posts, all I could think was why are all these people who are actually in agreement with one another on the essential issue(s) confused into feeling they are in disagreement?

is it the junkyard in our heads? perhaps specifically the junkyard of co-opted language?

it strikes me that each person, each view, is correct, within its own framework, but ... in order to actually do anything meaningful, in order to take steps individually and in groups, to make the situation better, we either need to arrive at a common, not co-opted language, or we need to agree to sidestep the problems of co-opted language, for the greater good

violence is everywhere, and we pay for all of it, directly or indirectly

dbd, your tax dollars do go, and have gone, and will continue to go, toward the violent abuse and dispossession of aboriginal peoples: not in australia (altho the US certainly could,but does not choose to, condemn such policies and behaviours, especially in an allied country), but right here in the US, as well as abroad; I've posted about the domestic issue before, and posted before also on this one example, among many, abroad:

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/pilger.php?articleid=3702

however, I am not blind to fact that the horrific abuse of the indigenous peoples worldwide is not likely to land up in a nuclear holocaust, while the situation in the mideast very well could

so even enlightened self interest would demand a close and clear eye on the ME and its potential as an ignition device for a worldwide conflagration

we may all be palestinians one day soon

as far as zionism vs israeli aggression, or any other name/formulation that suggests itself, in the end, what will matter is if we let ourselves be destroyed in soul and spirit, in conscience, as well as in fact, by not standing against what we know is wrong

genocidal aggression, whether for practical advantage, material gain, religious or philosophical hegemony - look if I shoot your whole family, do you care what I thought my justifications might have been or be?

if you can label or define my "reasoning" will it bring back your loved ones? will it salve your grief?

if you go house to house in search of assistance to protect others from a similar fate and are ignored cos you can't explain yourself well enough, what does that say of your neighbours?

I have the advantage, or disadvantage, as may be, of being, among the assembled company, less articulate and really very average in intelligence; there's a point where waiting for the ultimate in fine distinctions and knife sharp argument and insight actually work against winning the day: if we wait for all that, it may well be too late to do anything meaningful

[AnnaLivia]

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[AnnaLivia]

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[pitcairn]

hey AnnaLivia

I can't speak for dbd, but I'm not sure I understand you fully, either

just as I didn't understand something you posted on the "frog biting" thread, you may have missed my post there but I am still curious, so:

you said, in re some of Alice's posts:

most importantly, this not about me. this is about opportunity, and cause, for members of this board to clarify some possible grave errors in their thinking, that are decimating their happiness and safety and impeding their progress toward same.

now, there was a definite misunderstanding there between you and Alice, but what did, do you mean by:

possible grave errors in their thinking, that are decimating their happiness and safety and impeding their progress toward same

???

and Jeff, I don't disagree with:


I think for the most part we're stumbling over language, but that's no small thing. Language encodes thought, and what people think has caused every atrocity humanity's committed.

Nuance of speech isn't some froofy indulgence while the world burns. It's lack of nuance that lights the fires.

altho I believe conscious and deliberate manipulation of language is more often the lighted match, but when do we stop letting a lack of nuance get in the way of doing right?

I am apparently among the very few so far, but I am convinced the hour grows late

[pitcairn]

AnnaLivia,

there's no hole as far as your argument goes, BUT

I know there are those who think everything is political and every real solution must be achieved thro politics or by political means, but I respectfully disagree with that position

I think politics also has its limits, and sometimes we really need to throw off its inherent limitations and framing to get anything of value accomplished

[darkbeforedawn]

Gosh, I don't even WONDER why you don't get my point Anna, even though I said it several times--I will say it again:

THE REASON WE MUST USE THE WORD ZIONIST TO SPEAK OF THE CRIMES OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL, IS BECAUSE

A. ZIONISTS CONTROL OUR CONGRESS AND ARE USING ARE TAX DOLLARS TO FUND GENOCIDE.

B.ZIONISTS CONTROL OUR "MEDIA" AND HAVE MADE OUR "FREE PRESS" AN AGENT OF THEIR PROPAGANDA.

What don't you get about the above posts, Anna. Or are your pain meds making it impossible for you to read as well as think?
And so since you double post, I suppose I may as well too. Maybe you will get the point next?
And Anna says the above--whatever it is... words fail me.
In answer to Joe, I say the following:
I am sorry, but my hardearned tax dollars and everyone elses are going to fund the eradication of the palistinians and support the zionists construction known as Israel. At least I am not paying for what is happening or has happened in Australia.
And yes, Joe, I do think the stolen lands in the Middle East should be returned to their rightful owners.

Thank you again Sunny for your clear statement of why people are stepping so cautiously around this zionism isssue. They don't want to be mistaken for Nazis.
However, at the present rate very soon we will not be able to distinguish either ourselves--as Americans-- or the so called denizens of Israel from the Nazis.
Both cultures are fast approaching this nadir of hatred, murder and moral bankruptcy. I think we should fear this much much more than we fear being mistake for nazis because we deplore the acts of the zionists.
We should fear THE FACT that we are becoming them in reality, much more than we should worry about what people think[i]

[Joe Hillshoist]

have the advantage, or disadvantage, as may be, of being, among the assembled company, less articulate and really very average in intelligence;

I'll believe that when you say something inarticulate and unintelligent

John Pilger is a legend btw - for an old lefty expat.

as far as zionism vs israeli aggression, or any other name/formulation that suggests itself, in the end, what will matter is if we let ourselves be destroyed in soul and spirit, in conscience, as well as in fact, by not standing against what we know is wrong

Thats a fair point, but:

I think for the most part we're stumbling over language, but that's no small thing. Language encodes thought, and what people think has caused every atrocity humanity's committed.

Exactly, do we want the seeds for the next atrocity planted in our response to these ones?
That is something I see in the use of the term Zionism.

DBD You may be Jewish and in a position to say Zionism is wrong and Israel should be gone. Non Jews in the West say this and immediately they justify the Holocaust and every pogrom leading up to it.

And yes, Joe, I do think the stolen lands in the Middle East should be returned to their rightful owners.

Cool so you will be leaving the Us soon I take it, cos until you head back to your ancestors homeland(whereeverr that is) and give America back to its original inhabitants then you are speaking hypocritical crap.

You are happy to sit there in a culture that stole and pillaged and reap the benefits of it, abusing everyone who disagrees with your constructs of the world. While criticising some other culture thats doing the same thing. Practise what you preach.

Fraudulent or not at least Zionism claims some tattered shred of credibility from the fact that its "reclaiming" its homeland. Whats your excuse for being on Turtle Island. Were you invited there?

And don't put words in people's mouth:

Joe HS(Horseshit, your oh so endearing nickname for me) tells us we should ignore zionism because "aboriginal" people are being killed and their land taken away everywhere on the planet.

Did I say ignore it? Did I say pretend it isn't happening?

No I said that the terms you use to frame this debate have effects on peoples minds and that should be taken into account.


But while we are on that subject - why is your pet cause any better than anyone else's?
Why is the palestinian suffering any worse than anyone else's?

I am glad you are clear on the fact that you want Israel gone, completely.

Cos if thats what anti Zionism is then I want no part of it. Replace the massacre of one population in that part of the world with the massacre of another? thats the only way its gonna happen. And its just what we need, more bloodshed.

And as for what you say about anna livia, you are just rude.

Anyone that is contrary to you is gumming up the argument.

You are the Nazi at the moment, and not for your anti Zionist views, just for the way you step on others opinions, misquote them to further your own ends and use verbal violence to try and stifle debate.

[Seventhsonjr]

I looked for it for a while but never found it with a very slow computer and the search function just doesn't get it.

Is it just me or is there an element of redundancy here in this thread. I read many of the last posts and thought I had already read the last page ----anyway

I have now read the entire thread and have to say that Jeff's comment a few pages back is the most cogent one in many respects.

The fact is that Zionism as a concept or actual idealogical movement has become a tool of right wing WASP fascists IMHO. It also serves the socalled Zionist right wing neocon beneficiaries of the Bushzi plans for this Fourth Reich.

So attacks on Zionism, while really reeking of antisemitism frequently, are a response which is a designed response to help the fascists propagandize as is the facile claim of antisemitism. Both responses serve the fascists. If antiSemites and antiNazis fall together into the trap of adopting an argument foisted on them by agents of the right, they can be lumped together and dismissed.


For me, the red herring is the concept that Zionism is the problem (not fascism, WASPism or contemporary Naziism [and let me explain by saying that WASPism and Naziism are, to me, the same --- and that fascism is the methodology of these as well as of many other nationalistic or ethnic/religious power groups])

Zionism IS a problem in many respects. But it is nowhere near as big or as serious a problem as any other ethnic or religious centricity or concept of ethno-religious superiority when compared to the massive power of the modern fascist WASP (Anglo-German-American) establishment.

And yes many socalled Zionist wield huge power and influence with the Bushzis. But so do fascists like the Saudi royals, other oil rich states, or the Asian power elites. All of these have an interest in promoting war as that is their bread and butter; and their power, at this point where it has been so abusive to the planet and its inhabitants, keeps them from the gallows or the chains.


ANYWAY --- ANNALIVIA or anyone else who reads this thread and can help--- PLEASE give me a link to the politics 101 thread so I can catch up mo' better.

[AnnaLivia]

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[AnnaLivia]

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[darkbeforedawn]

So many words. ...... So little sense.
And all this immense verbiage doesn't change the FACT that zionists really do control our congress
AND our media.
You with your thousands of fingers pointing in every direction but those still have not been able to refute those simple facts.
And that is the dilemma here.
I'm for calling a spade a spade and zionist a zionist.
And no, Joe HS, I do not think that because I want to take back homes and give them to people who now live in tents from those who stole those exact homes from the exact families, necessarily means
that I have to give back MY home to people who have not owned or lived on that land for many many generations.
These people--the Palestinians--often sit in the fields in full view of the places they had formerly occupied as the owners.
Their displacement IS CURRENT EVENTS, not historical record.
And that's why these two cases are NOT the same, Joe.
Or is that leap a little two complicated for you?

[Joe Hillshoist]

I'm for calling a spade a spade and zionist a zionist.

Yeah, I have been called a spade before.

Usually by the same sort of people that scream Zionist every chance they get.

But you're not racist.

[darkbeforedawn]

I have no idea WHAT your color is and "spade" in my book was not a racial epithet.
It's an old saying with a long history that has had nothing to do with race as far as I know.

NO I AM NOT A RACIST. You are a paranoid.
And you still have not addressed my points.
It is ZIONISTS, not Israel, that control our congress
and it is ZIONISTS that control the media.
These forces combined have silenced debate and effectively hijacked our government into a willing slave of the Israeli war effort.
All this endless and distracting noise you make only serves to underline your inability and unwillingness to face those issues.