Peak Oil

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Peak Oil

Yes, it's real.
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No, it's a scam.
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Total votes : 76

v

Postby vigilant » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:02 pm

No, you didn't read the article, vigilant. The Wallstreet Journal is talking about an oil "plateau." They never used the term Peak Oil -- in fact, they had this statement in their article:


Yes I read it and I recognized it as a play on words. Peak oil, plateau oil, they are just playing with words is all they are doing. And I stand by comments that there is a disconnect between the price of a gallon of gasoline, and the true supply of oil. I understand the energy futures trading market and I understand how the game is played. I recognize that oil is a finite resource, but the price of a barrel of oil and a gallon of gasoline is not as nearly connected to the supply and demand as you imagine. The futures market on wallstreet sets the price of a barrel of oil, and if you don't realize it, study the futures trading market and it will become apparent to you.
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Postby vigilant » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:14 pm

The article also blends nicely with the latest comment by Hugo Chavez on the price of a barrel of oil. Hugo said he thought $100.00 a barrel was a "fair" price. Notice he didn't say based on supply and demand that $100.00 would the the inevitable outcome. In a way, Hugo let the cat out of the bag in a subliminal way. Hugo's comment was based on the fact that he knows Wall Street Futures Traders set the price of a barrel oil and the price on a gallon of gasoline. Hugo is as not as polished as the rest of the big oil crooks and he let that cat peek out a little bit.....
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Re: v

Postby wintler2 » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:21 pm

vigilant wrote:.. In a way, Hugo let the cat out of the bag in a subliminal way. Hugo's comment was based on the fact that he knows Wall Street Futures Traders set the price of a barrel oil and the price on a gallon of gasoline. Hugo is as not as polished as the rest of the big oil crooks and he let that cat peek out a little bit.....
Sez you. 'Wall Street traders' may set the price of the most often news-cast oil price, NYMEX west texas crude futures - the NYMEX or New York Mercantile Exchange is indeed located v.close to Wall Street (North End Avenue). Tapis Crude however, more significant in Aus petrol price, is traded in Asia and already over US$110/barrel. Are you arguing that Wall Street traders control both, and the rest? Based on your interpretation of Chavezs meaning by the word 'fair'. :roll:
For the biggest stuffed prize (and another five bucks), can you tell me if your unnamed Wall Street traders control oil price regardless of oil supply?
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Postby wintler2 » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:46 pm

bump.
I wanna see if the fruitcakes change their excuses for not acting as oil price keeps rising.
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Postby ninakat » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:31 pm

The peak oil crisis: storm of the century
by Tom Whipple

A “Perfect storm” refers to the simultaneous occurrence of events which, taken individually, would be far less powerful than the result of their chance combination. Such occurrences are rare by their very nature. -- Wikipedia

In recent weeks we have been bombarded with reports of perturbations in the mortgage/liquidity crisis that is creating havoc in the financial world.

The travails of the “financial industry”, as it is called these days, are affecting oil prices at least as much as the normal forces of supply and demand.

Commentary on what is about to befall us is becoming scarier with each passing day. Learned professors are writing in the New York Times that our financial system is in danger of coming unglued. The general thesis is that America’s financial institutions are only capitalized at $1.1 trillion yet they are supporting $11 trillion worth of mortgages. Home prices are going to have to fall by 30-50 percent before most people can afford to buy homes again. When this drop in housing value is over, some 20 million homes will be mortgaged for far more than they are worth and a fair portion is likely to be abandoned. Some think the banking system is in for some very hard times. Others have dubbed the burgeoning financial crisis “peak money.”

But there is more: global warming seems to be causing unprecedented droughts and glacial melting which in turn are leading to lower food production and empty reservoirs and a substantial drop in hydro-electric production around the world.

Welcome to “peak climate,” “peak food,” “peak water,” “peak electricity,” or as some people are putting it, “peak everything.”

Some parts of the world are pumping so much fossil fuel emissions into the air that they can barely breathe. Perhaps they are reaching “peak air?” Then there are worries about the world’s carrying capacity –- “peak people?”

There is no question that a lot of bad things are about to happen –- more or less simultaneously. If some “peaks” we can see looming ahead occur at the same time, they will reinforce each other leading to a far more serious situation than if they occurred decades apart where they could be dealt with separately. Simultaneous shortages of fuel and water in the same area would have serious consequences as large resources would have to be devoted to providing life-sustaining water supplies, putting additional pressure on oil supplies and prices. If the drought in the Southeastern U.S. continues much longer, Atlanta may be the first large city in the U.S. to experience this phenomenon.

Other peak situations cut both ways and may have unforeseen and unintended consequences. Food grain-based biofuels (peak oil vs. peak food) should in theory help to mitigate the peak oil situation but is contributing significantly to peak food and higher food prices. The amount of corn-based ethanol being produced today is making a minimal contribution to keeping down oil prices while resulting in much higher food prices. Increases in fuel and food prices are starting to result in significant inflation which in turn is complicating efforts to deal with peak money.

The timing of the various peaks will have a lot do with how they interact with each other. Serious consequences from global warming (peak climate) is usually thought of as being many years ahead, but if the Georgia drought turns out to be a consequence of global warming then massive economic damage from global warming may be closer than many imagine.

Keeping in mind that as yet unimagined interactions and consequences of the various peaks may arise, at the minute it seems that a major financial crisis and peak oil will set in during the next few years. The interaction of these phenomena will be complicated. At times they will mitigate each other and at times will reinforce the troubles. Currently the consensus of the global market is that as prospects for a recession improve, oil prices deserve to go down based on an eventual drop in demand. In recent weeks, we have seen nearly every governmental attempt to deal with the liquidity crisis in the U.S. and Europe resulting in surges in oil prices in hopes they will be successful.

The interaction of declining oil supplies and a world monetary situation out of control would seem to have the most potential for serious trouble in the immediate future. Newspapers, magazines and the cybersphere are filling with stories by credentialed and knowledgeable people saying that a financial meltdown has already started and that the situation will get much worse in the next year.

Current evidence suggests that at least in the U.S., Europe and China the demand for oil will continue to remain high until completely overwhelmed by economic difficulties. With the world’s population increasing by 76 million each year, the demand for food is unlikely to subside and prices are likely to increase – food-based biofuels production or not.

Thirty years ago when inflation grew and the economies sagged, we called it “stagflation.” This time the term may be too mild to encompass what seems about to happen. Within the next year our liquidity problems, unsatisfied demand for oil, growing food and water shortages, and other consequences of overindulgence appear likely to merge into an unprecedented economic storm. In the midst of this storm, which could continue for years, world oil production is likely to decline forever and the resources to mitigate the storm are likely to become very scarce.

Someday the events we are all going to live through in the next decade may become known as the century’s most perfect storm.
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Postby wintler2 » Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:27 pm

Tom Whipple has been preaching catastrophe perhaps longer than M.Ruppert, but catastrophe in the way they describe it has so far failed to arrive. I'm not saying it wont, but for 'white folks'/anglosphere at least its not happening, they're just getting poorer.

The reality of PO is i fear being used to keep people afraid and ultimately passive, unengaged in their local politics and seeking saviors not sustainability. Why get involved in politics if government is about to collapse anyway? Real engagement with the global problematique will come from comprehensively regulated natural resource management, communication and compromise. Such will require greatly enhanced nonviolent engagement by all with each other, at all levels, simply cos there is no other way we can make an orderly powerdown. There is such a thing as Society after all, Maggie Thatcher, and it has a function - to prevent the ruthless rich and their apologists driving all of us over a cliff.
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Postby Brentos » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:35 pm

Not entirely sold on the extremities of peak oil as preached by some, at least in terms of current oil prices, or PO's effect on the current global economy.

Oil prices shoot up right after the war in iraq. High oil prices can in the short(ish) term 'help' the US economy since it makes it easier for the US to export it's debt to other nations who require oil (bought in dollars). That and the falling dollar and futures trading can easily pump up the prices.

Not to say that oil, regardless whether abiotic or biotic can sustain ever increasing demand though. Perhaps the peak can be seen by the PTB (doubtful) and whats happening (post 9/11) is a means to curb consumption, like Daniel Estulin says.

Other reasons I'm doubtful about PO extremity, is that
1. iirc, true estimates are secrets.
2. More and more deep oil drills are bringing up a lot of oil
3. I've read Mike Ruppert's fear mongering analysis which turned out to be bogus (massive rolling blackouts by 2007), among other criticisms (Leo Wanta), which made me realise, PO debate is potentially rigged.
4. The 1973 crisis has some peculiarities to it which others on the boards probably know more about..
5. oh yeah, oil prices shoot right up after the start of the iraq war and keep going up. Seems like there may be a correlation.
6. Iraq has potentially vast untapped oil reserves.
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Postby wintler2 » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:50 am

Brentos wrote:..Oil prices shoot up right after the war in iraq. High oil prices can in the short(ish) term 'help' the US economy since it makes it easier for the US to export it's debt to other nations who require oil (bought in dollars). That and the falling dollar and futures trading can easily pump up the prices.
Coupla failures here, in fact and in logic:
-oil prices really been rising since 1999, long before most recent US+UK invasion of Iraq
http://www.eurotrib.com/files/3/050827_ ... prices.gif
http://www.etan.org/lh/misc/PetFundSub/ ... 9-2004.gif
-oil is decreasingly sold in US$, so holding US$ less important. Also rising prices make the US's massive oil import bill harder to meet, and foreign buyers of US debt & Treasuries are less & less inclined to cough up = net loss from higher prices, IMHO.

Brentos wrote:..Not to say that oil, regardless whether abiotic or biotic can sustain ever increasing demand though. Perhaps the peak can be seen by the PTB (doubtful) and whats happening (post 9/11) is a means to curb consumption, like Daniel Estulin says.
Actually Estulin can be read nodding along with Alex Jones claims that PO is a scam http://www.infowars.com/articles/interv ... _27_05.htm (halfway down), so i'm not clear what you think he says. If you, he or AJ have any proof that PO is a scam, i'm still waiting @ http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... sc&start=0

Brentos wrote:Other reasons I'm doubtful about PO extremity, is that
1. iirc, true estimates are secrets.
WTF is a 'true' estimate? Many once-private & now open source estimates are available and doing well in predicting production
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3439
Brentos wrote:2. More and more deep oil drills are bringing up a lot of oil
Where? Link please.
Brentos wrote:3. I've read Mike Ruppert's fear mongering analysis which turned out to be bogus (massive rolling blackouts by 2007), among other criticisms (Leo Wanta), which made me realise, PO debate is potentially rigged.
Well duh! If you're looking for the no-flakes-ever camp then you'll be looking a long, long time.
Brentos wrote:4. The 1973 crisis has some peculiarities to it which others on the boards probably know more about..
So you don't need to know anything about an argument you cite? Faith based argument is for the religious, not the rigorous.
Brentos wrote:.
5. oh yeah, oil prices shoot right up after the start of the iraq war and keep going up. Seems like there may be a correlation.
Error of ommision; even if completely true - So? Correlation is not causation.
Brentos wrote:.6. Iraq has potentially vast untapped oil reserves.
So does Mars, some say, yet Big Oil has strangely declined to rush in, even with the forced privatisation & union busting laws. Surely the same guys who lied about WMD & 'mission accomplished' wouldn't lie about oil reserves? (well not to oil companies anyway, hence their disinterest). And 'untapped' is flat untrue, Iraq has been extracting oil since 1927.

Lazy conspiricism is so easily duped into fighting battles for the rich.
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Postby Brentos » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:18 am

wintler... you haven't impressed me at all towards PO. Keep the fear.
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Postby wintler2 » Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:07 am

So Brentos can't support any of his/her claims & has no apology for misleading readers about oil prices, Iraqs long history of oil extraction, or size of recent deepwater discoveries?

And Brentos just skips over his failings, pretending i'm the one peddling fear, not him & his TPTB propagandists. Reason is dead.
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OK Brentos

Postby slow_dazzle » Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:10 am

So what is the dastardly plan behind pretending the world has reached the absolute maximum amount of energy it will ever extract? Why are all the geologists wrong? Are they in on the scam? Are they being paid to lie? Are they too frightened to speak out and say the PTB made them lie about it? Or are they just crap at their jobs?

Why are the oil companies drilling miles under the sea bed? Are they doing it for fun or does that suggest desperation?

Likewise, is it just co-incidental that the conflict in the ME just happens to be where around 60% of the known reserves of oil are? Is it also co-incidental that there is considerable military activity in Western Africa where there also happens to be oil?

Don't you think there is something worrying about the fact that we input around ten calories of energy for every ONE we eat?

Do you not think there is a relationship between energy peaking and the ongoing financial mess? If you do not please explain why.

It is in the interests of Big Oil to create a perception of artificial abundance, not artificial scarcity. Basic stock market theory proves that one hands down.

All of what I have said can be backed up with source material.

The fact is very simple Brentos. The world as we operate it absolutely depends on infinite growth and that growth can only happen if energy is available to provide the feedstock. If you disagree please explain why and do so in detail.

If I wanted to keep the people looking the other way I would take every step possible to prevent them finding out what is slowly starting to build. If people realise what is going to happen there will be panic and that is guaranteed. People are just not prepared mentally to face the truth of the fact that civilisations do, and have, collapsed. History has a perfect batting average when it comes to that one.

If you disagree with the "scaremongering" please post at length to explain away everything that has been posited here. This is not a game. It is much more serious than that.
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Postby Sounder » Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:28 am

Peak Oil does not seem to be a scam, at least in the sense that a resource that is so widely used and produced must come to a point where (practically speaking) it runs out. My issue is with the lack of effort at imaginative reconstruction of our criteria for understanding (the way we see the world), so that we may come to focus on solutions more so than the problems.

This is an earlier reply relating to PO, no response or reflection; that's fine.

slow_dazzle, thanks for your gracious offer, extended so that I may better support the assertion that Hubberts Peak is claptrap. First let me say that empirically speaking, you do have the stronger case. But then I am reminded of a Ford advert I saw while watching TV at a neighbor’s house. In this ad the camera sweeps through a one hundred-year arc, showing the engine design studio's, with their fantastic improvements and development over time. Oh please, gag me with a spoon. The implied assumption here is that; we get 'power' from burning things, and however much the particulars may change, this will not. This seems like defeatist and shallow thinking to me. We are better than this.
















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Postby wintler2 » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:15 am

Sounder wrote:Peak Oil does not seem to be a scam, at least in the sense that a resource that is so widely used and produced must come to a point where (practically speaking) it runs out. My issue is with the lack of effort at imaginative reconstruction of our criteria for understanding (the way we see the world), so that we may come to focus on solutions more so than the problems.

This is an earlier reply relating to PO, no response or reflection; that's fine.
Maybe you just need to read more widely, or write more, if you have constructive suggestions.
Sounder wrote:slow_dazzle, thanks for your gracious offer, extended so that I may better support the assertion that Hubberts Peak is claptrap. First let me say that empirically speaking, you do have the stronger case. But then I am reminded of a Ford advert I saw while watching TV at a neighbor’s house. In this ad the camera sweeps through a one hundred-year arc, showing the engine design studio's, with their fantastic improvements and development over time. Oh please, gag me with a spoon. The implied assumption here is that; we get 'power' from burning things, and however much the particulars may change, this will not. This seems like defeatist and shallow thinking to me. We are better than this.
Sure we are, and i rejoice in our possibilities. But they don't create themselves. If we're going to radically reduce the amount of fossil fuels used in e.g. food, a shitload of work (physical, learning, deprogramming, compromise..) lies ahead of many of us. If we're going to stop genocidal & suicidal wars for our drug of choice, theres going to be some bruises, and probably some boring meetings, and blood, and many moments of inspired personal and collective courage. 'Suck it up' i believe fits the times, so long as that doesn't endorse fear-based passivity or credulity for fluffy thinking.

'Peak oil' is not the label for some monolithic front group, it is the simplest possible name for a problem that a range of people are concerned about, and its got v.little to do with "running out". Some of those people are certain that humanities innate faults doom us to resource wars and collapse so run for the hills, others that it will be the making of us as citizens and human beings as we reform our civilisation. You will of course make your own mind up how significant you think it will be, not forgetting that there are undoubtedly propagandists in that field as in any other.
But they don't change the fact of it, and the fact of it and the significance of energy in our lives is hard to exaggerate.
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Postby Brentos » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:40 pm

Wintler, apologies for my terse response. My position is mainly that I'm not convinced that PO is causing the current financial instabilities in the world.
My position probably isn't far from yours, just I think PO isn't as severe as some others think, yet. This is based on doing some reading in the area, and realizing that many PO pundits don't really know themselves, since reserves estimates are typically not publicly revealed, and seem to be mainly inferred by PO pundits, for instance due to industry insiders and circumstantial 'evidence' like refinery numbers.

I don't see a failure in my logic though.
Those graphs you posted verify that oil prices did go up markedly post iraq war. Yep some countries are diversifying from the dollar, but the dollar is still the de facto currency, backed by oil. A higher price of oil (due to limited production in iraq say and warfare in the middle east) makes other countries absorb the debt/price of war. Its worth bearing in mind that Iraq was switching to euros in Nov 2002, months before the US invasion.
Not saying that PO is a scam, and the current wars could well be based on future energy scarcity. I'm no expert in any of this, just my 2 cents opinion on what I've read in the past.

@SD: I pretty much agree with what you say, that the wars in the world are probably about future scarcity & control. The current financial troubles were coming anyway. Consumers can only take on so much debt w.o. having productivity in the economy. It could be, as Estulin posits, that this is a deliberate ploy by globalists to lower consumption, as well as a means to create parity in the (new) world.
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Brentos - and if I seemed preachy

Postby slow_dazzle » Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:55 pm

I didn't mean to. I just feel that we need to wake people up to what is (probably) around the corner.

The subject of energy supply is pretty complex and there are other strands to what is going on world wide. Maintaining power is the overall goal but I have no doubt at all that there is opportunistic profiteering going on as the oil gets scarce.

And there is the recurring theme of drugs that is impossible to ignore. The drugs trade seems to be tied into the way the financial system works, specifically, maintaining a competitive edge by ensuring access to the lowest price of capital.

All the best Brentos.
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