Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby §ê¢rꆧ » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:10 pm

23 wrote:Dr. Paul has been kicking the CIA's ass for over 20 years.

1988:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vEBQ-rK ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBh_hzU- ... re=related

Same voice, same message. Only the ears have changed.


That's interesting, thanks for that. Oh my gods, the hair on him back then!

BTW, We've got a nice secessionist thread going on over here, in this thread titled now 'EMPTY' (unhelpfully retitled by 'A J Hidell')

Image

Back to topic, it has to be military intelligence (DIA, ONI, etc) intersecting with CIA who's really running the show. The wars go on no matter what or who is in office...
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby jfshade » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:16 pm

Yes, it runs the government; or at least operates without any meaningful governmental oversight, or limitation on its access to public funds:
Black budget [2003]

"The CIA has the unique legal ability among all US government departments and agencies to generate funds through appropriations of other federal government agencies and other sources 'without regard to any provisions of law' and without regard to the intent behind Congressional appropriations. Every year, billions of dollars of Congressional appropriations are diverted from their Congressionally sanctioned purposes to the CIA and DoD based intelligence agencies without knowledge of the public and with the collusion of Congressional leaders. The covert world of ‘black programs’ acts with virtual impunity, overseen and regulated by itself, funding itself through secret slush funds, and is free of the limitations that come from Congressional oversight, proper auditing procedures and public scrutiny." The CIA black budget is annually in the vicinity of 1.1 trillion dollars – a truly staggering figure when one considers that the DoD budget for 2004 will be approximately 380 billion dollars.[12]
link

And who runs the CIA? Looks like the very corporations with vested interests in the endless war on terra have a vote:
The most intriguing secrets of the "war on terror" have nothing to do with al-Qaeda and its fellow travelers. They're about the mammoth private spying industry that all but runs U.S. intelligence operations today.

Surprised? No wonder. In April [2007], Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell was poised to publicize a year-long examination of outsourcing by U.S. intelligence agencies. But the report was inexplicably delayed -- and suddenly classified a national secret. What McConnell doesn't want you to know is that the private spy industry has succeeded where no foreign government has: It has penetrated the CIA and is running the show.

Over the past five years (some say almost a decade), there has been a revolution in the intelligence community toward wide-scale outsourcing. Private companies now perform key intelligence-agency functions, to the tune, I'm told, of more than $42 billion a year. Intelligence professionals tell me that more than 50 percent of the National Clandestine Service (NCS) -- the heart, brains and soul of the CIA -- has been outsourced to private firms such as Abraxas, Booz Allen Hamilton, Lockheed Martin and Raytheon.
The above is from a piece by RJ Hillhouse, who has written extensively about intelligence privatization. I sense planted disinfo by "intelligence professionals" in some of her work, but the outsourcing trend is real.
link

So, I'm curious as to how Ron Paul thinks we should go about "tak[ing] out the CIA." It has pretty much all the money that the banks don't have, and is locked in serpentine embrace with the most powerful corporate warmakers.
As Sunny said:
Smashing the CIA into a thousand pieces and scattering it to the winds in 1962 or so would have been the way to go but...
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Sweejak » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:36 pm

"serpentine embrace"
Now that's evocative.

I don't think Paul, if he survived, would be able to do much, if anything, just like Obomber if I were to presume he was really a good guy. The presidency itself is limited hangout. So, now what?
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby 23 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:39 pm

Sweejak wrote:"serpentine embrace"
Now that's evocative.

I don't think Paul, if he survived, would be able to do much, if anything, just like Obomber if I were to presume he was really a good guy. The presidency itself is limited hangout. So, now what?


Congress funds federal agencies, but the President hires and fires its employees.

I'm sure that President Paul would have no compunction about firing a massive amount of CIA asses.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Hammer of Los » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:35 pm

This has been an interesting little thread. I like to read closely.

Thank you 23 for your marvellous input. I would just like to say that I have enjoyed some of your recent posts very much.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby American Dream » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:46 pm

..

Here's an excerpt from Peter Dale Scott's 9/11, Deep State Violence and the Hope of Internet Politics. It's kinda long but it does present a counterpoint to the "CIA dunnit" school of thought:

Deep Events as Intrigues within the Global Dominance Consensus

Many critics of American foreign policy on the left tend to stress its substantial coherence over time, from the War-Peace Studies for post-war planning of the Council on Foreign Relations in the 1940s, to Defense Secretary Charles Wilson’s plans in the 1950s for a "permanent war economy," to Clinton’s declaration to the United Nations in 1993 that the U.S. will act "multilaterally when possible, but unilaterally when necessary."52

This view of America’s policies has persuaded some, notably Alexander Cockburn, to lament the displacement of coherent Marxist analysis by the "fundamental idiocy" and "foolishness" of "9/11 conspiracism."53 But it is quite possible to acknowledge both that there are ongoing continuities in American policy and also important, hidden, and recurring internal divisions, which have given rise to America’s structural deep events. These events have always involved friction between Wall Street and the Council on Foreign Relations, on the one hand, and the increasingly powerful oil- and military-dominated economic centers of the Midwest and the Texas Sunbelt on the other.

At the time that General MacArthur, drawing on his Midwest and Texas support, threatened to challenge Truman and the State Department, the opposition was seen as one between the traditional Europe-Firsters of the Northeast and new-wealth Asia-Firsters. In the 1952 election, the foreign policy debate was between Democratic "containment" and Republican "rollback." Bruce Cumings, following Franz Schurmann, wrote later of the split, even within the CIA, between "Wall Street internationalism" on the one hand and "cowboy-style expansionism" on the other.54

Many have followed Michael Klare in defining the conflict as one, even within the Council on Foreign Relations, between "traders" and warrior "Prussians."55 Since the rise to eminence of the so-called "Vulcans" – notably Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, and Paul Wolfowitz, backed by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) – the struggle has frequently been described as a struggle between the multilateralists of the status quo and the unilateralists seeking indisputable American hegemony.56

Underlying every one of the deep events I have mentioned, and others such as the U-2 incident, can be seen this contest between traderly (multilateralist) and warriorly (unilateralist) approaches to the maintenance of U.S. global dominance. For decades the warriorly faction was clearly a minority; but it was also an activist and well-funded minority, in marked contrast to the relatively passive and disorganized traderly majority. Hence the warriorly preference for war, thanks to ample funding from the military-industrial complex and also to a series of deep events, was able time after time to prevail.

The 1970s can be seen as a turning-point, when a minority CFR faction, led by Paul Nitze, united with corporate executives from the military-industrial complex like David Packard and pro-Zionist future neocons like Richard Perle to forge a succession of militant political coalitions, such as the Committee on the Present Danger (CPD). Cheney and Rumsfeld, then in the Ford White House, participated in this onslaught on the multilateral foreign policy of Henry Kissinger.57 In the late 1990s Cheney and Rumsfeld, even while secretly refining the COG provisions put into force on 9/11, also participated openly in the successor organization to the CPD, the Project for the New American Century (PNAC).

From his office interfacing between CIA and the U.S. Air Force, Col. L. Fletcher Prouty deduced that there was a single Secret Team, within the CIA but not confined to it, responsible for not only the Tonkin Gulf incidents (timed to enable already planned military action against North Vietnam) but other deep events, such as the U-2 incident of 1960 (which in Prouty’s opinion was planned and timed to frustrate the projected summit conference between Eisenhower and Khrushchev) and even the assassination of President Kennedy (after which the Secret Team "moved to take over the whole direction of the war and to dominate the activity of the United States of America").58

In language applicable to both Korea in 1950 and Tonkin Gulf in 1964, Prouty argued that CIA actions followed a pattern of actions which "went completely out of control in Southeast Asia:"

The clandestine operator… prepares the stage by launching a very minor and very secret, provocative attack of a kind that is bound to bring open reprisal. These secret attacks, which may have been made by third parties or by stateless mercenaries whose materials were supplied secretly by the CIA, will undoubtedly create reaction which in turn is observed in the United States…. It is not a new game. [but] it was raised to a high state of art under Walt Rostow and McGeorge Bundy against North Vietnam, to set the pattern for the Gulf of Tonkin attacks.59

I mention Prouty’s thesis here in order to record my partial dissent from it. In my view his notion of a "team" localizes what I call the global dominance mindset too narrowly in a restricted group who are not only like-minded but in conspiratorial communication over a long term. He exhibits the kind of conspiratorialist mentality once criticized by G. William Domhoff:

We all have a tremendous tendency to want to get caught up in believing that there's some secret evil cause for all of the obvious ills of the world …. [Conspiracy theories] encourage a belief that if we get rid of a few bad people, everything will be well in the world.60

My own position is still that which I articulated years ago in response to Domhoff:

I have always believed, and argued, that a true understanding of the Kennedy assassination will lead not to `a few bad people,’ but to the institutional and parapolitical arrangements which constitute the way we are systematically governed.61

Quoting what I had written, Michael Parenti added, "In sum, national security state conspiracies [or what I would call deep events] are components of our political structure, not deviations from it."62

The outcome of the deep events I have mentioned so far has been chiefly a series of victories for the warriors.63 But there have been other structural deep events, notably Watergate in 1972-74 and Iran-Contra in 1986-87, which can be interpreted, if not as victories for the traders, at least as temporary setbacks for the warriors. In The Road to 9/11 I have tried to show that Cheney and Rumsfeld, while in the Ford White House, bitterly resented the setback represented by the post-Watergate reforms, and immediately set in motion a series of moves to reverse them. I argue there that the climax of these moves was the imposition after 9/11 of their long-planned provisions for COG, formulated under their supervision since the early 1980s.

Thus since World War Two the warriorly position, initially that of a marginal but conspiratorial minority, has moved since the Reagan and Bush presidencies into a more and more central position. This is well symbolized by the rise in influence since 1981 of the Council for National Policy, originally funded by Texas oil billionaire Nelson Bunker Hunt and explicitly designed to offset the influence of the Council on Foreign Relations.64 Comparing the 1950s with the present decade, it is striking how much the status of the State Department has declined vis-à-vis the Pentagon. With the accelerated militarization of the U.S. economy, the question arises whether a more traderly foreign policy can ever again prevail.

And since 9/11, especially with the institution of unknown COG procedures, some have talked of the overall subversion of democracy, by a new Imperial Presidency in the Bush White House.65



So, following Peter Dale Scott's view of deep events, we can easily say that Ron Paul's support for individual civil liberties and opposition to foreign intervention is likely to curtail CIA conspiracies to some degree. On the other hand, the ways in which he takes a laissez-faire approach to corporate dominance seems likely to fuel new, and possibly worse, conspiracies...
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:50 pm

§ê¢rꆧ wrote:it has to be military intelligence (DIA, ONI, etc) intersecting with CIA who's really running the show. The wars go on no matter what or who is in office...


"The CIA" is a shorthand.

The actual CIA turned into a shell long ago. As I like to say, the CIA is its own biggest front group.

A more accurate rendering would be something like, the deep state policy-making community in intersection with parapolitics. Imagine multiple networks of mutual favoritism (and mutual blackmail) cutting across agencies, institutions and corporations. The obvious example is the Bush mob, who have directly held or had a hegemony over the executive for decades. One strand of development might roughly go like this:

1934 "Plot Against America" --->
1940s & 1950s CIA Founders/Ratlines/Postwar Covert Ops/Mockingbirds --->
1960s "Bay of Pigs" Crew --->
1970s crisis crew (unleashing of "Rogue CIA") --->
1980s-1990s Team B/"October Surprise"/Iran-Contra/1980s Banking Plunder --->
1990s High Bush Mob + Mena Connection --->
2000s 2nd Gen Bush Regime/"neocons"
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby 23 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:27 pm

American Dream wrote:So, following Peter Dale Scott's view of deep events, we can easily say that Ron Paul's support for individual civil liberties and opposition to foreign intervention is likely to curtail CIA conspiracies to some degree. On the other hand, the ways in which he takes a laissez-faire approach to corporate dominance seems likely to fuel new, and possibly worse, conspiracies...


I think that you may be mischaracterizing Dr. Paul's position here.

He does not take a "laissez-faire approach to corporate dominance", as you suggest. On the other hand, he certainly takes a laissez-faire approach towards free market economics.

Corporate dominance today, he maintains, largely occurs from the collusion of government with corporations. The military industrial complex being an excellent example of that. And some would argue the bailout of the banksters as well.

You can agree or disagree with his views on this issue. But it helps to cite 'em a little more accurately.

Government and corporations sleeping in the same bed, he has once said, is not free market economics. Some have called this fascism.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby American Dream » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:45 pm

"Free market" economics= increased corporate dominance.

This is not rocket science.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby 23 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:52 pm

American Dream wrote:"Free market" economics= increased corporate dominance.

This is not rocket science.


The devil is in the details, AD.

But nothing says that you should value the same details that I do.

They (details) do help, on the other hand, from avoiding overgeneralizations, don't you think?

(Edited to include an additional dosage of civility]
Last edited by 23 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Nordic » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:06 pm

American Dream wrote:"Free market" economics= increased corporate dominance.

This is not rocket science.


Actually when you say "free market" economics ......

The only way such a thing can exist is in a situation where there is tight regulation to ENSURE the "free" part.

Otherwise, yes, it turns into a corrupt situation where the big boys gobble up the little boys and take over, like what we have now.

A basketball game without referees in other words. Or as Howard Dean always put it, a hockey game without referees (probably more violent).

So it's possible to have "free market" forces work in a society, but only with strict and consistent and enforced government regulation to ensure that the game is played the way the game is meant to be played.

Haven't had that in a long long time in this country.

The problem I have with most libertarians is that they have this "magical thinking" whereby they believe that you don't need referees, that "the game" itself is SO perfect that if you touch it in any way you mess it up. In other words, NO referees, NO rules, no nothing.

Which is just absolutely stupid.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Sweejak » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:03 am

23 wrote:
Sweejak wrote:"serpentine embrace"
Now that's evocative.

I don't think Paul, if he survived, would be able to do much, if anything, just like Obomber if I were to presume he was really a good guy. The presidency itself is limited hangout. So, now what?


Congress funds federal agencies, but the President hires and fires its employees.

I'm sure that President Paul would have no compunction about firing a massive amount of CIA asses.


Maybe I'm being too cynical. As C in C he is certainly not without power.
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby Sweejak » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:21 am

Actually when you say "free market" economics ......

The only way such a thing can exist is in a situation where there is tight regulation to ENSURE the "free" part.

Otherwise, yes, it turns into a corrupt situation where the big boys gobble up the little boys and take over, like what we have now.


I suppose now would be the time to point out that Paul is for regulation, for regulation of the FED.

There is nothing I know of in all the flavors of libertarianism that condones theft.

I'm not too keen on their economic ideas myself, but they do not advocate no rules, maybe some flavors do but wouldn't those ideas be more along the lines that Anarchists would take.

My main problem with libertarianism is the same I have with communism, that while the ideas are nice in theory I'm not sure they can ever be implemented. I very much like the civil libertarian end of things though, and deeply resent not having the freedom to do the right thing but instead having to be told, by a government, what the right thing is. So, maybe the libertarians have to much faith in humanity?
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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:52 am

So, I'm curious as to how Ron Paul thinks we should go about "tak[ing] out the CIA." It has pretty much all the money that the banks don't have, and is locked in serpentine embrace with the most powerful corporate warmakers.


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Re: Ron Paul: CIA runs the U.S. government

Postby elfismiles » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:58 am

barracuda wrote:Once again, I was unclear. Ron Paul's base is not entirely composed of "rabid" individuals, but the share which is constituted by patriot secessionists, yes, I would characterise as "rabid", and I'd say the overlap between them and supporters of Cynthia McKinney would be small.

Full disclosure: McKinney voter here.


As I've said elsewhere around these parts, I voted for McKinney here in Texas because she was on the ballot and has balls like Paul.

If Paul had actually been on the Texas ticket I'd have voted for him.

Where is that "rabid base" emoticon?

Ah, this'll do...

:woot:
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