Vets Get Ecstasy to Treat Their PTSD

[dada]

Anyone here have any knowledge of the toxicity/side effects of ketamine?

Recreational users say that if you take too much, you fall into what they call a "K-hole." But I think that's probably the most interesting of Ketamine's effects. I've never done DMT, but from how I've heard the experience described, it sounds similar to the experience of high doses of Ketamine.

Side effects include a higher rate of occurence of synchronistic phenomena, communication with extra-terrestrials, temporary enlightenment, and finally a spectacular burn-out.

[compared2what?]

Perhaps a trifle OT: Anyone here have any knowledge of the toxicity/side effects of ketamine?

(I know google is my friend... but the brain trust here is rather formidable)

Toxicity in literal terms: Well, I guess what I have to say would be halfway between "I don't know" and "That's a complicated question."

Side effects: Many, potentially. For one thing, it's addictive, which I believe makes it unique among hallucinogens. Maybe brain lesions for long-term use.
_________________

And....To each his or her own, but the main reason I've never spent a lot of time thinking about its side effects is that from my personal perspective, its main effects are enough to settle the question for practical purposes. It's manufactured by several subsidiaries of Pfizer (and maybe some other gigantic pharmaceutical companies, I don't know) for use as an anesthetic in veterinary medicine and also human medicine, though it's only the primary anesthetic of choice for humans in various medically specific circumstances.

But you know. It's an anesthetic, it doesn't just alter your senses, it severely impairs them. I've never understood its popularity as a party drug, therefore. I mean, it's fast-acting, but it's also short-acting. So (in my anecdotal observation and nothing more substantial or definitive than that, to be fair) people who use it recreationally tend to keep doing bumps all night until they're sitting around in public in a state in which it would be possible to remove their appendixes without their feeling it. Granted, that's not very likely to happen in reality. And you don't really need your appendix anyway. But better safe than sorry.

In any event. It's a sedative and an analgesic, obviously. And it's also a dissociative amnesiac with hallucinogenic properties. It was originally developed for commercial use by Parke-Davis, which didn't market it under the slogan "Ketamine: It's not as bad as PCP!" But fwiw, that's the product niche it was designed to fill.

Pharmaceutically pure ketamine -- ie, ketamine that's DEA-licensed for manufactured by Big Pharma -- has been experimentally reported to have some therapeutic utility as a fast-acting anti-depressant and also as a treatment for heroin addiction. And maybe it does, I have no idea. I also wouldn't bet on street-manufactured K actually being ketamine and only ketamine unless I had a pretty good reason to think so, personally.

On the other hand, I personally wouldn't want to use ketamine as an entheogen or as anything else unless I needed surgery under circumstances in which I'd either have to forgo an anesthetic or stop breathing.

Which is to say: My personal views of ketamine are personal, not impartial. So I certainly don't dispute the proposition that it can have nothing but beneficial effects. I've just never seen them myself.

However, I'd readily concede that my observation and experience of ketamine is limited to (a) a period in the mid-'70s when it was a comparatively rare recreational drug used by kids my age as kind of an acid-coke amalgam; and (b) a period in the '90s when it was the A#1 club-drug of choice in NYC, despite there not really being any argument about how K-damaged the K-damaged were.

So fwiw, that's the view from someone who doesn't see the appeal. Which I couldn't and don't claim is anything other than very subjective. I'd be interested in hearing from someone who had a good account of it, in fact. As I said, I've never really understood what people got out of it.

But I'd like to. Anyone?

[wordspeak2]

Not I, C2w. I'd also be curious to hear from anyone who thinks s/he has benefitted from ketamine.
I know that this fellow James Kent is something of an advocate for it. If you skip to the last paragraph of the below, there's an interesting description: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamin ... nfo3.shtml

Dada, I agree with you on this:
"I think that whatever you go looking for on a trip- healing, illumination, whatever - you'll find it, but it is ephemeral. Best bet is to go in not looking for anything, just exploring. Then you may find something of lasting value. Something that will always be unexpected, because you have no expectations."

And when it comes to a high-level mushroom or DMT experience, you *can't* possibly have a tangible expectation, because it's so bizarre and intense that it defies pre-consideration and, essentially, language. I really implore everyone to, sometime in your life, have a full-blown "level 5" mushroom trip, which involves, imo:
-fasting or only eating very lightly ahead of time
-not being under the influence of obstructing drugs such as caffeine, alcohol, or sugar
-being in a dark quiet place where you can close your eyes and be at peace
-consuming a large dose of quality mushrooms- like four to five grams

Then come back to the world!
I think everyone also owes it to him/herself to try to "break through" on DMT, which means freebasing it. To say it's a reality-changer is the understatement of history.

And hava1, after your last post, I'm starting to wonder what exactly you're smoking over there. I oppose all forced drugging absolutely. I even have a bumper sticker on my car that says, "No forced psychiatric drugging!" One of the tenants of Timothy Leary's original "League For Spiritual Discovery" was *do not dose anyone unwillingly.* Yes, agreed!
But are you actually suggesting that MAPS is doing that? Huh?? Am I reading you right? I understand that this isn't your area of expertise, but MAPS has plenty of fully willing volunteers for its MDMA studies and all its studies. You said: "I dont see why research on that very good cure is exported to countries were safety and human rights are not preserved."

...Um, it just happens to have been accepted in Israel. There are other psychedelic studies going on in Sweden and, I believe, Switzerland. This is where they've been accepted. There's been minimal acceptance in the U.S. There was a DMT study here. The point is, MDMA certainly works as treatment for PTSD, as we will surely find out. Your suggestion that MAPS' MDMA study has anything at all to do with the Israeli mafia trafficking in ecstasy is completely bizarre and asinine. And this notion that MDMA has or is being used by spooks for some unclear purpose is still a mystery to me.

Your last line I'm not sure I even follow: " I think some people here, on their way to conquer a desired goal (legalizing MDMA for their own fun use) are willing to break some eggs, regretfully, those are already broken eggs. I find that disappointing, but not surprising."

What on earth are you saying? What are said eggs that we are supposedly breaking? And why on earth should people be sent to jail for using a totally harmless and potentially beneficial drug? Why should a vast criminal mafioso underworld be created for its distribution, instead of allowing safe access? How does this make sense?
And my sincere sympathy for whatever drugged abuse you were a victim of, by the way...

[smiths]

i dont know how others have consumed DMT but i smoked it in a pipe,

the major difference between it and ketamine is duration, the DMT experience lasts about five minutes,

i think it was Buroughs who described it as like being shot out of a canon, one minute your straight, the next you are in an a fully psychadelic space, the next you are sitting on the floor slightly dazed wondering what the hell happened,
and crucially if you smokle it again straight away it doesnt have anywhere near the same effect

ketamine, like acid lasts for hours, enough time for people to formulate the idea that they have permanently lost thier mind, thats the real twist with those drugs

i have had and know of some wild experiences on ketamine, but i have also seen it reduce people to dribbling hunched up paranoid messes

[Iamwhomiam]

Large doses of Ketamine does open doors, doors you cannot close, where anything may enter, welcomed or not.

Most who have visited here do not want to return. And I'm not talking about novice experimenters, but those well experienced individuals who push the limits expanding their consciousness.

I have no experience with these drugs, so my knowledge comes as heresay or through anecdotal personal reports such as this posted by American Dream in March of last year, relating John Lilly's experiences on K.

Please be aware there may be triggers within the thread linked to above.

Many years ago I had the patent papers for Phencyclidine, along with its 11 pages of medical applications.

Drugs are used to enslave and placate the enslaved to keep the machines running.

No one needs them, though I understand the desire to break-away from the doldrums of routine life. Meditation is free, healthy and will get you very high and take you to places unimaginable.

[smiths]

bollocks, drugs are tools to be used well or abused at great cost

acid is one of the best things i have ever done in my life

you can ruminate on the infinite, meditate for hours, contemplate the vast interconnectedness,

but acid, mushrooms, DMT and ketamine are like wormholes

on acid i felt and understood the infinite in a way that is simply not possible in my ordinary state of mind

dont go around telling people that drugs have no value if you havent tried them,
and if you dont want to try them, dont go around telling other people about thier lack of merit or point

[justdrew]

anyone ever done the hyperventilating trick?

you crouch down, hyperventilate for a minute or two, stand up suddenly, holding your breath, arms crossed across your chest and a friend pushes on your chest/arms to keep you from breathing. Your friend should be aware to catch you as you'll likely pass out. During the pass out you have a journey, feel like you are somewhere else, then you're awake again, typically it's hard to believe you were only out a few seconds as the journey feels like it had taken longer, although it's difficult to remember details.

Kinda like DMT, but no substances needed

[barracuda]

Recreational hypoxia has never been that much fun for me. I don't recommend it, personally.

[justdrew]

Recreational hypoxia has never been that much fun for me. I don't recommend it, personally.

oh god no, I wouldn't recommend it either. File under "adventures of the young and dumb" - that wiki page should be enough to dissuade anyone. Thankfully I only tried it a few times in total.

huh, looks like this may be the inspiration for the ol' Vulcan neck pinch:

Other mechanisms
Unconsciousness may be induced by other methods although these are controversial: Pressure over the carotid sinus may induce a syncope (fainting) without any other action at all but this is difficult to reproduce

[Iamwhomiam]

My dear smiths, good for you! but really, if you're going criticize me, please relate your criticism to something I said and not something you imagined I said.

"dont go around telling people that drugs have no value if you havent tried them,
and if you dont want to try them, dont go around telling other people about thier lack of merit or point"

Perhaps you'll point out for us where I wrote that drugs have no value or told anyone about "their lack of merit or point." That no one needs so-called recreational drugs is simply inarguable. That some find drugs to be beneficial is truly wonderful.

That some who take drugs, especially disassociative hallucinogenic drugs, even some first-time users, wind up institutionalized and permanently damaged is true as well and also cannot be argued, though in all my years I have known of only a half-dozen or so persons who had been affected in this way.

Seems that taking the acid you have hasn't increased your tolerance for the opinions of others that differ from yours.

Oh, and by the way... your comment about meditation informs all you've no idea of its purpose. Should I now condemn you for commenting on something you're unfamiliar with?

[smiths]

someones got to defend healthy mind expanding drug use, thats all

as it happens, in my youth when i consumed more drugs i think i was more tolerant of all opinions that differed from my own,
maybe these years without drugs have increased a certain kind of intolerance ...

i was also much more naive and beliving then, that well meaning people could come together and solve problems,

that was before i really understood the games, and the prizes

now i have less time for opinions i consider to be ignorant and destructive,
now i see the people who consume the imperialist trinkets and frequent the media circus' in a far harsher light than i used to
(not thaty i placing you in that group whatsover)

i am just trying to say that some of your inarguables are arguable

That no one needs so-called recreational drugs is simply inarguable.

what are needs? if humanity took huge conceptual leaps through the use of psychadelic drugs dont those drugs become needs of humans

and the fact that a few come to grief via drugs is not a bad mark against the drugs necassarily
i know of a few people who have been manipulated, assaulted and even raped in the course of pursuing mediatation via gurus of various sorts,
would i say that constituted a good case against mediatation, no way

it was the generalisation, and the assumptions about what each of needs that got me

Drugs are used to enslave and placate the enslaved to keep the machines running.
No one needs them

[justdrew]

just found this over at bb... bring it here in case anyone doesn't follow that site is interested:

Pihkal: A Chemical Love Story, by Alexander ("Sasha") Shulgin and Ann Shulgin is one of the strangest books I've ever read. Alexander Shulgin is a well known psychedelic chemist, and he has synthesized hundreds of drugs, which he and his wife Ann have taken and written about in Pihkal (Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved) and in their follow up book, Tihkal (Tryptamines I Have Known and Loved). Fortunately for Alexander, he has a Drug Enforcement Administration Analytical License that allows him to possess, identify, and analyze drugs that would land other psychonauts in the slammer.

Vice recently sent Hamilton Morris ("VBS’s resident expert in all substances mind-bending") to the Shulgins' home in Northern California for a video interview.

After spending days, weeks, months poring over the work of psychonaut-in-chief, Alexander Shulgin, Hamilton Morris mustered up the chutzpah to give him a call and request an interview. The result is this: an epic love-fest on the man who birthed Ecstasy in a test-tube. Hamilton visits the Shulgin residence (in San Francisco, naturally) and tempers his fanboy freakout with a rare and intensive look at the home and laboratory that caused the balls of millions to trip.

22 minute interview video here

Has anyone ever heard of a drug that makes you see in black and white?

[smiths]

no, but there is a camera that turns things white

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hsfYmpDQqA

[dada]

I'd be interested in hearing from someone who had a good account of it [ketamine], in fact. As I said, I've never really understood what people got out of it.

But I'd like to. Anyone?

The Scientist: A Metaphysical Autobiography, by Dr. John Lilly has as good an account as any, will give you a good idea what the high dose ketamine experience is like.

My own experience with ketamine centers around a six month or so period in 1998-99. I was just out of novice experimenter school, having graduated to an experienced individual who pushes the limits expanding their consciousness. I have always tried to keep my experiments as controlled and safe as I can, meaning taking great care and being aware of everything I put in my body and mind before and during my experiments, to the best of my ability. Of course there's only so much you can do, when your astrolabe is your music rehearsal studio, but you make the best of what you are given.

Anyway, I found that injecting large doses brought on that experience of being "shot out of a cannon" into a very high psychedelic state that was mentioned earlier in the thread in the context of DMT, but fifteen minutes later I'd be back. That's why when I'd read the DMT trip lasts about five minutes, I thought that the fifteen minute ketamine trip duration that I was experiencing was not that different. But unlike DMT, you could do it again, almost immediately, and get to pretty much the same place.

There is a feeling that there is an alien intelligence just on the edge of your awareness, along with all the usual space and time warping effects you'd expect... back on the planet just afterwards, I remember having frantic bursts of creative energy, which at the time for me meant writing words and music, fingerpicking in odd time signatures and singing. Looking back on the words now, they are embarrassing to read, but that happens to me all the time, looking back at every former creative stage from the next one always makes me cringe. But some of the odd time fingerpicking ideas have still stuck with me since then. Synchronistic events really did seem to happen with greater frequency during my six month or so ketamine experiment, but towards the end, a compulsive element also creeped in, which reminded me of reading about Bowie doing too much coke and getting so paranoid he couldn't leave a cigarette butt in an ash tray. Everything starts having too much meaning. A bit psychotic, I guess.

One other thing, it seemed that during that time, life was presenting me with 'aha!' moments right along side very mundane, reality check moments. Like a reminder that you can't have one without the other. Kind of difficult to explain.

All in all, I would say there were some interesting experiences there, I may try it again sometime in the future to see how it is similar and different from my past experiences.

[dada]

I also want to say that, unlike the varied results I've read, about treating alcoholism or criminal behavior with psychedelics, every experiment giving psychedelics to terminal cancer patients has had good results.

Basically, I don't think psychedelics will make you a better person, but I am all for giving the dying some relief from pain and anxiety.