12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:49 pm

apropos of Krugman, inflation, imperial-military spending:

Krugman, China and the role of finance.
November 22, 2010
By Michael Hudson

Here’s the quandary that the U.S. economy is in: The Fed’s quantitative easing policy– creating more liquidity so that banks can lend more – aims at helping the economy “borrow its way out of debt.” But banks are not lending more, for the simple reason that a third of U.S. real estate already is in negative equity, while small and medium-sized businesses (which have created most of the new jobs in America for the past few decades) have seen their preferred collateral (real estate and sales orders) shrink. How can banks be expected to lend more to re-inflate the economy’s asset prices while wages and consumer prices continue to drift down? The “real” economy as a whole therefore must shrink.

What has made the argument over Fed policy so important over the past week is a series of exchanges between Republicans and Democrats. The deteriorating situation prompted a group of Republican economists and political strategists to publish an open letter to Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke criticizing the Fed’s policy of Quantitative Easing (QE2), flooding the economy with liquidity spilling over into foreign exchange markets to push the dollar’s exchange rate down. True enough, as far as this criticism goes. But it only scratches the surface.

Enter Paul Krugman, one of the most progressive defenders of Democratic Party policy. His New York Times op-eds usually rebut Republican advocacy for Wall Street and corporate interests. But he also indulges in China bashing. To “blame the foreigner” rather than the system is normally a right-wing response, yet Krugman blames China simply for trying to save itself from being victimized by the Wall Street policies he normally criticizes when labor is the prey. By blaming China, he not only lets the Federal Reserve Board and its Wall Street constituency off the hook, he blames virtually the entire world that confronted Obama’s financial nationalism with a united front in Seoul two weeks ago when he and his entourage received an almost unanimous slap in the face at the Group of 20 meetings.

Sadly, Krugman’s “Axis of Depression” column on Friday, November 19, showed the extent to which his preferred solutions do not go beyond merely marginalist tinkering. His op-ed endorsed the Fed’s attempt at quantitative easing to re-inflate the real estate bubble by flooding the markets with enough credit to lower interest rates. He credits the Fed with seeking to “create jobs,” not mainly to bail out banks that hold mortgages on properties in negative equity.

The reality is that re-inflating real estate prices will not make it easier for wage earners and homebuyers to make ends meet. Lowering interest rates will re-inflate real estate prices (“wealth creation” Alan-Greenspan style), raising the degree to which new homebuyers must go into debt to obtain housing. And the more debt service that is paid, the less is available to spend on goods and services (the “real” economy). Employment will shrink in a financial spiral of economic austerity.

Unfortunately, most economists are brainwashed with the trivializing formula MV=PT. The idea is that more money (M) increases “prices” (P) – presumably consumer prices and wages. (One can ignore velocity, “V,” which is merely a tautological residual.) “T” is “transactions,” for GDP, sometimes called “O” for Output.

Some 99.9 per cent of money and credit is not spent on consumer goods (the “T” in MV = PT). Every day more than an entire year’s GDP passes through the New York Clearing House and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange for bank loans, stocks and bonds, packaged mortgages, derivatives and other financial assets and bets. So the effect of the Fed’s Quantitative Easing (monetary inflation) is to inflate asset prices, not consumer prices and other commodity prices.

This is the key dynamic of today’s finance capitalism. It loads down economies with debt – and when debt service exceeds the surplus out of which to pay it, the central bank tries to “inflate its way out of debt” by creating enough new credit (“money”) to make real estate, stocks and bonds worth more – enough for debtors to borrow the interest due. This is the deus ex machina, the external influx of credit enabling financialized economies to operate as Ponzi schemes. The dynamic is encouraged by taxing speculative (“capital”) gains at a lower rate than wages and profits. So why should investors finance tangible capital investment when they can ride the wave of asset-price inflation? The Bubble Economy turns into speculative “wealth creation.”

Can it work? How long will gullible investors bet on a pyramid scheme growing at an impossibly exponential rate, enjoying fictitious “wealth creation” as bankers load the economy down with debt? How long will people think that the economy is really growing when banks lend to an economy overseen by regulatory agencies staffed by ideological deregulators?

The bankers’ ideal is for the entire surplus over and above bare subsistence to be paid in the form of interest and fees – all disposable personal income, corporate cash flow and real estate rent. So when the Fed’s QE lowers mortgage interest rates, will this enable homeowners to pay less – or will it simply increase the capitalization rate of the existing rental value?

The Fed’s cover story is that QE benefits homebuyers by reducing the debt they must take on. But if this were true, their gain would be the banks’ loss – and the bankers are the Fed’s main constituency. To the Federal Reserve, the economic “problem” is that falling (that is, more affordable) housing prices are killing the balance sheets of banks. So the Fed’s real goal is to re-inflate the real estate bubble (while spurring a stock market bubble as well, if it can).

A Wall Street Journal op-ed by Andy Kessler (also published on Friday, Nov. 19, the date of Krugman’s op-ed in The New York Times) pointed this out – but also recognized that the Fed would create a public relations disaster if it came right out and explained that its motivation in QE2 was to reverse the fall in property prices. “ Bernanke would create a panic if he stated publicly that, if not for his magic dollar dust, real estate would fall off a cliff,” and admitted that bank balance sheets still suffer from “toxic real estate loans and derivatives.” But the degree to which reported bank solvency is largely fictitious is reflected in the fact that the stock market value for the Bank of America (which brought Countrywide Finance) is only half its reported book value, while that of Citibank is off by 20 per cent.

Foreclosure is of course bad for homeowners, but it is even worse for banks, because of the financial pyramid of credit erected on the past decade’s worth of junk mortgages. The problem with Krugman’s analysis is his assumption that QE – intended to re-inflate the real estate bubble – is good for employment and indeed even for a renewal of U.S. competitiveness, not its antithesis. By focusing on trade and labor, he implies that the dollar is weakening only because of the trade deficit, not because of military spending and capital flight. And he assumes that re-inflating the real estate bubble – the Fed’s explicit aim – will make U.S. exports more competitive rather than less so! Most seriously, he asserts in his November 19 column, “the core reason for the attack on the Fed is self-interest, pure and simple. China and Germany want America to stay uncompetitive.”

This is not what I have been told in China and Germany. They simply want to avoid having instability disrupt their trade and domestic production, and to avoid having to take a loss on their international reserves held (mainly from inertia stemming from World Wars I and II when the United States increased its share of the world’s gold to 80 per cent by 1950). The U.S. Treasury would like U.S. banks and speculators to make an easy $500 billion at the expense of China’s central bank on slick speculative currency trading.

The Fed would like to see the U.S. economy revive by looting other economies.

It’s not going to happen. The plunging-dollar standard of international finance is being wound down as fast as other countries are able to replace the dollar with currency swaps among themselves, led by the BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India and China). South Africa has just joined these countries as a fifth member, and oil exporters from Nigeria to Venezuela and Iran are associating themselves in the attempt to make the international monetary system less unfair and less exploitative. Krugman’s fellow Nobel Prize winner, Joseph Stiglitz has provided (seemingly ironically, also in a Wall Street Journal op-ed): “That money is supposed to reignite the American economy but instead goes around the world looking for economies that actually seem to be functioning well and wreaking havoc there.”

The Fed and Congress have told China to revalue its currency, the renminbi, upward by 20 per cent. This would oblige the Chinese government and its central bank to absorb a loss of half a trillion dollars – over $500 billion – on the $2.6 trillion of foreign reserves it has built up. These reserves are not merely from exports, much less exports to the United States. They are capital flight by U.S. money managers, Wall Street arbitragers, international speculators and others seeking to buy up Chinese assets. And they are the result of U.S. military spending in its bases in Asia and elsewhere – dollars that recipient countries turn around and spend in China.

Chinese authorities have tried to make it clear that what they object to is the U.S. policy of creating “electronic keyboard credit” at one quarter of a percent (0.25 per cent) to buy up higher yielding assets abroad (and nearly every foreign asset is higher yielding). The Group of 20 in Seoul Korea last week accused the United States of competitive currency depreciation and financial aggression, and countries stepped up attempts to shun the dollar and indeed, to avoid running trade and payments surpluses as such.

The bottom line is that there is no way that the United States can defend depreciation of the dollar on terms that oblige other countries to take a loss on their holdings. Investors throughout the world have lost faith in the dollar and other paper currencies, and are moving into gold or simply closing off their economies. Over the past year – ever since the BRIC meetings in Yekaterinburg, Russia, in summer 2009 – their response has been to avoid using the dollar, to protect themselves from aggressive U.S. capital flight seeking to raid their central banks, buy out their companies, raw materials and assets with “paper credit” and indeed to step up military spending.

Instead of supporting this attempt – a drive that has the positive consequence for world peace that it will limit U.S. military adventurism (much as the Vietnam War finally forced the dollar off gold in 1971), Krugman is using the crisis to attack China – as if its success is what is harming U.S. labor. Rather, it is U.S. post-industrial pro-financial policies that have inflated the real estate bubble, privatized health care without a public option (without even a bulk discount for U.S. Government drug purchases), let alone the failure to write down mortgages and other bank debts to the ability to pay.

Today’s China-bashing is much like the earlier attacks on Japan and other Asian countries in the late 1980s, demonizing successful economies for avoiding the predatory practices that have corroded American industry, “financializing” and post-industrializing the economy. The U.S. debt pyramiding that has occurred since 1980 has turned into a class war that has little economic justification. So blaming foreigners – for getting rich in the very same way that the United States has done ever since the North won the Civil War in 1865 – simply offers political cover for a status quo that is not working.

The two U.S. parties and their spokesmen find it easier to demonize policies that go beyond the merely marginal than to set about solving structural problems. So political discussion ends up by highlighting fairly insignificant policy differences. One would hardly realize that the problem facing U.S. industrial employment is that wage earners must earn enough to pay for the most expensive housing in the world (the FDIC is trying to limit mortgages to absorb just 32 per cent of the borrower’s budget), the most expensive medical care and Social Security in the world (12.4 per cent FICA withholding), high personal debt levels owed to banks and rapacious credit-card companies (about 15 per cent) and a tax shift off property and the higher wealth brackets onto labor income and consumer goods (another 15 per cent or so). The aim of bankers is to calculate just how much their customers can pay to the FIRE sector, defined as everything they make over and above basic subsistence costs and “non-discretionary” spending.

This is post-industrial suicide – and it is the road to debt peonage for American wage earners and consumers. China has created an economy that has managed – so far – to avoid financializing its firms. The government owns over half the equity in its commercial banks. According to its Ministry of Finance, assets of all state enterprises in 2008 totaled about $6 trillion (equal to 133 per cent of annual economic output.) The effect is that when loans are made to domestic enterprises – especially to partially or wholly owned by the government – the interest and financial returns accrues to the public sector, making it unnecessary to tax labor.

China understandably is trying to defend this system. Yet the Obama administration (echoed by Republican free marketers) has criticized it, especially for its public subsidy of solar energy investment to slow domestic pollution and global warming. Wednesday’s Wall Street Journal provided an almost comically hypocritical attack earlier last week, (Jason Dean, Andrew Browne and Shai Oster, “China’s ‘State Capitalism’ Sparks a Global Backlash,”) decrying China’s accelerated investment in solar power to free its economy (and its air quality) from oil imports and carbon emissions. “It leverages state control of the financial system to channel low-cost capital to domestic industries—and to resource-rich foreign nations whose oil and minerals China needs to maintain rapid growth.”

This policy prompted Charlene Barshefsky, U.S. trade representative under President Bill Clinton (who helped negotiate China’s 2001 entry into the World Trade Organization) to complain that “powerful state-led economies like China and Russia … decide that ‘entire new industries should be created by the government,’ … it tilts the playing field against the private sector.” This is just what Japan did to promote its industrialization – by providing government credit intended to promote tangible capital investment, not extract financial rake-offs. “Vast swaths of industry still controlled by state companies and tightly restricted for foreigners,” complain the Wall Street Journal authors. “The government owns almost all major banks in China, its three major oil companies, its three telecom carriers and its major media firms.”

We are dealing with two quite different ideas of what the proper role of a financial system should be. Commercial banks in the West have created most credit for speculation and asset-price inflation over the last thirty years, not to fund capital formation and industry. The guiding idea of a public-sector bank is to promote long-term investment to raise productivity, output and employment. This is what has enabled China to succeed so rapidly while Western economies have let themselves be financialized. The Baltics, Iceland and now Ireland are examples of the disaster that financial neoliberals cause when given a free hand.

The moral is that China’s bank success – and its attempt to avert U.S. currency raiding and arbitrage speculation seeking to loot its foreign reserves – should be emulated, not accused as an act of economic warfare. This emulation is what the BRIC+ countries have announced as their goal. The Obama administration and European politicians certainly are making an obvious point in urging China to focus more on its own domestic market and accelerate the rise in its living standards. It is clear that markets in the United States and Europe are shrinking as debt deflation sets in.

China is not as economically self-sufficient in natural resources and water as the United States. This means that a sustained rise in its living standards will require spending much of the international savings it has built up. But at least it is on the right path. Can the same be said of America? Does it help to denounce China, or should we rather ask why its productivity, capital investment and living standards are rising while ours are declining?

Asking this question suggests the answer: China’s financial system is designed to promote a growing surplus, not siphon it off. A byproduct is to increase real estate and stock market prices – but this is a reflection of capital investment and progress, not a diversion of investment to fuel financial asset stripping as has occurred in the United States with increasingly arrogant greed over the past 30 years.

What Krugman and other economists advocating for wage earners and the economy at large should be concerned with is the danger of the Fed undertaking yet another back-door bailout for its Wall Street constituency. Kessler suggests that the Fed should do just this – to “move the toxic debt onto the balance sheets of the FDIC and the Fed, and re-float the banks with fresh capital to open on Monday morning.”

You can’t blame China for this!

http://michael-hudson.com/2010/11/krugm ... f-finance/


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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:10 pm



Michael Hudson on the hyperinflation-ponzi scheme referencing Pinochet from 2008.

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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:46 pm

.

I'm not saying "it can't happen here." I'm saying the forced transfer of private pensions into public debt instruments obviously won't happen here, because the way things are here, they would choose nuclear war or an endless print or cut the non-murder part of the budget by a third or half (which is their dream), or default on parts of the debt (like Social Security, they'd love to do that) before they would ever, ever, ever question the all-holy sanctity of the rights of accumulated private property, around which the entire insanity revolves.

What do you think would have to happen before states would even move the pension funds they have control over (i.e., of the state employees) OUT of the fucking stock market and other Wall Street investments? That already would be a welcome revolution. They should have done that in 2007, obviously. They should have founded state banks to hold the pension fund investments. So whatever Lira experienced (he wasn't the only one in Argentina, was he?), his scenario is ridiculous and can only grow out of an extreme "libertarian" world-view.

As for hyperinflation, US creditors and the central banks of the world have made it clear that they will continue to float the dollar long as they can maintain their own consensus around that point. Too many of them are tied into that interest. They all need to keep printing their own debt. The dollar's value is no more illusory today than it ever was (since all money is illusion).

Given the denomination of US debt in US currency, hyperinflation would be a welcome development for all crushed by debt. Hyperinflations have happened in many countries, and almost all of them were able to reset and start over. Too bad about savers -- do you know anyone with money in the bank, or with a significant build-up in a retirement fund of any kind? Because I don't. I know people who owe, and owe, and owe, and I know that they are the overwhelming marjority.

However, it's because it would have benefits that it's going to be resisted. The rich want deflation. That's when they get to own more and more. Remember, contrary to the lies you may remember from high school, the German hyperinflation preceded the fat years of the Weimar Republic, and the deflation brought the Nazis. (Simplifistic, but thrown out here with good reason.)

Those who make the deficit or fears of hyperinflation into the issue while the bankster pigs who conducted the greatest global robbery of all history still run free and illegitimately control ultra-trillions in capital flows, and while the rich and their right-wing polit-commandos wage the most open class war in all American history -- they're bringing back child labor!!! -- are the enemies of life on earth. Including that of their own posterity. Fuck the deficit. Fight the class war.

.

EDIT: Heh, I'm going to leave "simplifistic" as is.
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:03 pm

JackRiddler wrote:...


Those who make the deficit or fears of hyperinflation into the issue while the bankster pigs who conducted the greatest global robbery of all history still run free and illegitimately control ultra-trillions in capital flows, and while the rich and their right-wing polit-commandos wage the most open class war in all American history -- they're bringing back child labor!!! -- are the enemies of life on earth. Including that of their own posterity. Fuck the deficit. Fight the class war.

.

EDIT: Heh, I'm going to leave "simplifistic" as is.


semantics rears its ugly head. again.

anyway when i read pensions, i'm thinking union pension funds, workers pensions and savings (i.e. social security), etc., not the money the rich have overseas or their assets or whatever. i'm thinking Larry Summers "investing" other poeple's money.

government debt = captive tax base. who funds the government deficit? who receives the benefits?

the US is a house where the bank's loan manager (Obama) slums while advising the owners (the people) on how to deal with the bank (FED et. al).

"hyperinflation" is not a natural event, but a controlled crisis. [not something that happens, but something that is made to happen. it's sometimes called "rationalisation" or "stripping assets" or "austerity" or LEAN. the IMF and WB are experts at it.] it's merely a continuation of the "greatest global robbery of all history" as you put it. my point isn't about the deficit, but who is paying for it. who's being taxed? not the banksters nor the profiteers, clearly?

2008 was just the beginning. [if one can call it that.]

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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:15 pm

JackRiddler wrote:.

...

Those who [1] make the deficit or fears of hyperinflation into the issue while [2] the bankster pigs who conducted the greatest global robbery of all history still run free and illegitimately control ultra-trillions in capital flows, and while the rich and their right-wing polit-commandos wage the most open class war in all American history -- they're bringing back child labor!!! -- are the enemies of life on earth. Including that of their own posterity. Fuck the deficit. Fight the class war.

.

EDIT: Heh, I'm going to leave "simplifistic" as is.


you write as if [1] and [2] are two distinct and entirely unrelated things. i don't see it that way.

i find that quite "simplifistic".

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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby brainpanhandler » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:16 pm

c2w wrote:Post-War Economics in the United States for Mouth Breathers


On behalf of mouth breathers everywhere I demand an apology.
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:16 pm

vanlose kid wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:Those who [1] make the deficit or fears of hyperinflation into the issue while [2] the bankster pigs who conducted the greatest global robbery of all history still run free and illegitimately control ultra-trillions in capital flows, and while the rich and their right-wing polit-commandos wage the most open class war in all American history -- they're bringing back child labor!!! -- are the enemies of life on earth. Including that of their own posterity. Fuck the deficit. Fight the class war.


you write as if [1] and [2] are two distinct and entirely unrelated things. i don't see it that way.


The size of the deficit and public debt is certainly in large part a product of the bankers' plunder, as we know. To therefore focus on the deficit as the biggest issue and on hyperinflation as the worst threat plays into the bankers' discourse. The real issue should be how to neutralize the TBTF Banks in their continued attack on the world -- to line up the perpetrators at the nearest (metaphorical) guillotine, seize their assets, end the bailouts, and cancel whatever public debt they purport to hold, reboot the currency if necessary and direct capital to the urgently needed conversions of the energy and transport systems (which also means recovery and those hotly coveted beloved "jobs").

These people are part of the class war that's robbing everyone of the rights to organize, assemble, petition, and expect to be paid for their labor, and seeks to restore the labor conditions of the 19th century. These people are the ones fighting a variety of wars to keep the machinery of overconsumption operating. It's their fucking deficit and given a choice between what they want, which is tantamount to the restoration of mass servitude, and the danger of hyperinflation, then I prefer the latter. Hyperinflations are a danger (not always) when the system melts down and are accompany processes that represent an opportunity for change. Deflation is the intended functioning of the system, the means by which the rich get richer and everyone else is broken.

What I object to is the idea that hyperinflation is what "they want." That's not their endgame. They have a lot of cash and hold a lot of debt and they like buying things for cheap, especially labor.

None of this is to say I welcome hyperinflation. I reject that deficits and the danger of hyperinflation and the precious savings of the 10 percent who have any net savings should be an overriding concern when the real game is to enslave the people. (I also reject the model that claims that money supply causes inflation. Inflation comes from demand or from commodity price rises. Hyperinflation is the some-time result from a global loss of confidence in the ability of a national economy to manage its debts as a whole, regardless of cause. Whether that will happen with the dollar is an open question because the key players worldwide consider it TBTF. At any rate, widespread debt jubilee is the right strategy for dealing with excessive debt, rather than printing money.)

anyway when i read pensions, i'm thinking union pension funds, workers pensions and savings (i.e. social security), etc., not the money the rich have overseas or their assets or whatever. i'm thinking Larry Summers "investing" other poeple's money.


Go back and read what Lira wrote. This was the part that got me the angriest! He was saying this wouldn't happen because the unions are so powerful, which is why "the government" would come after the poor "individual" investor, since they don't have a lobby, like the unions. Consider what's happening to the workers all over the country right now! That's radical right mythology.

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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby compared2what? » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:39 am

brainpanhandler wrote:
c2w wrote:Post-War Economics in the United States for Mouth Breathers


On behalf of mouth breathers everywhere I demand an apology.


I'm afraid that you simply don't have standing to do that. Whether or not such an apology is owed is a matter that's strictly between me and mouth-breathers everywhere. In fact, for all you could possibly know, I might have taken care of it already. Would you by any chance be willing to settle for a debt of gratitude instead? Because I just can't tell you how very much I'd appreciate it if you stopped crypto-verbose trolling me, honey.

Seriously. You can pretty much name your price.
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby compared2what? » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:30 am

JackRiddler wrote:At any rate, widespread debt jubilee is the right strategy for dealing with excessive debt, rather than printing money.)


So naturally, instead, they've opted for narrowly confined debt jubilee, rather than printing money. IOW: Punted. (I'm talking about quantitative easing, in case that's not clear.)
_______________

Honestly, it's not like I'm not ruling out the possibility of hyperinflation at some point in the future that's not so far away we won't be alive to see it. (And fwiw, the same goes some large number of times more than double for the possibility of your basic, plain old vanilla price-over-wage inflation.) But right now, I don't even see anyone making a serious case for it. It's not like we're up to our noses in paper with green ink on it due to the precipitously rising amount of fiat currency in circulation. The entire damn reason the government had to buy its own debt to begin with was because if they hadn't, a significant portion of the private business sector would have collapsed, as a consequence of having spent all the fiat currency-plus-credit that it had on all the bad debt that I'm sure we all remember the government buying enormous amounts of back in 2008.

That's not a rosy picture, obviously. But in a capitalist economy, it's obviously better fiscal policy to prevent the companies that act as the cornerstones of domestic capital industry from being unable to cover its basic operating expenses than it is to just let the lights go out. The government will end up taking a loss on its investment eventually. And obviously, when that happens, it will happen at a cost to the taxpayer for something the taxpayer didn't benefit from directly.

That's outrageous (as usual). But by definition it can't and won't happen unless the economy recovers enough for those costs to be bearable, if it ever does. Speaking of which, it's not nearly as fucking outrageous as the jackshit the government is doing for its non-corporate citizens, many of whom have lost their homes (or their jobs, or their health, or their life savings, if you ask me. Not by a factor of infinity squared. And that's not a specter that's haunting discussion boards, it's happening (and being memetically displaced by hyperinflation anxieties) right now, this very instant.
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Basically, I guess I don't even really grasp what the roadmap to hyperinflation-being-posited-as-nearly-upon-us is supposed to be. Maybe....I don't know. If, maybe, Brazil-Russia-India-China were already a full-grown global-economic titan, I can see how that would be a different story. Because it really wouldn't be too surprising if they felt like using some of their youthful brawn for payback purposes, would it? But there's still too much unwritten future between the present and that potentiality for the details of its realization to be foreseeable.

As things stand, though, unless I'm really overlooking something, we're just not even close to where (let's say) Argentina was when it went hyper-I. I mean, we have huge, huge debt and so did they. So in that sense, the possibility exists that we'll also be like Argentina and start printing gazillions of dollars out of sheer desperation after our creditors are no longer willing to take a risk on us. But that's where the parallels begin and end, as far as I can tell.

In short: We have huge debt. By itself, that doesn't lead ineluctably to hyperinflation. Or, ftm, to any kind of very severe inflation, necessarily.

What am I missing here?
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby wintler2 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:00 am

Nothing. You're missing nothing, except maybe a publisher, a chat show, and a viral youtube video, all of which you richly deserve. So does JR, IMHO. Reading you guys is a bit like watching Jackie Chan in double.
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby gnosticheresy_2 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:04 am

JackRiddler wrote:These people are part of the class war that's robbing everyone of the rights to organize, assemble, petition, and expect to be paid for their labor, and seeks to restore the labor conditions of the 19th century.


As an aside, what I sometimes find frustrating is the inability of some to see things for what they are, which is this. The oft repeated trope that "things are different now, class doesn't mean anything anymore" is just a fairy tale told by the very same people who benefit most from it's propagation: the class that's screwing everyone else right at this moment. The ownership class never went away, it expanded, went international and then spent the last few decades convincing the rest of us that it didn't exist so it could take back what it regards as rightfully theirs i.e. everything. I think that people get lead astray a bit by the secretive and illegal nature of things that get discussed on here, but it doesn't matter if you're rich through illegal arms dealing, profiting from your links to the intelligence-drugs nexus or simply because you walked into a CEO job by virtue of your family connections, you have an interest in making sure that nothing can threaten your position. And that means denuding workers of the rights and stopping them organising by any means necessary.
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby brainpanhandler » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:31 am

I'm afraid that you simply don't have standing to do that.


But I do. I'm a mouth breather. I had horrible allergies all through my childhood and adolescence. It wasn't until someone called me a mouth breather and I asked someone what it meant that I realized how I looked breathing through my mouth. People's surface level impression of me was that I wasn't very bright, partially because my mouth was always hanging open.

You can pretty much name your price.


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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:43 am

anothershamus wrote:C2W wrote:
For the last little while, the demand for gold by panicked investors seeking a hedge against the worldwide collapse of the real economy (or, if you prefer, "inflation") has been creating what you might call a gold mini-bubble, though it's been more volatile than bubbles typically are. I'm not sure where that's at right this moment.


I have to admit that when Cramer starts talking about buying gold, it might be in a bubble, however, if you look at the volume of $$ being printed and the $14trillion dollar debt. It's not hard to see an inflationary period approaching. The raising prices of food and energy are being kept out of the CPI because TPTB want to keep the inflation number artificially low. They might be able to hold of full blown inflation for a while longer but when it hits it's going to hit hard.


This is similar to the position of the Labour governments of the 60s and 70s. In short we've had inflation. All the amount your wages have gone up by since 1975? That was inflation. The seeming money-printing is just catching up. The tory government back then changed the law to allow banks to lend out more money than they had and had previously been allowed to, no extra capital funds required. So, the amount of money in circulation more than tripled in a year. That, combined with the usual Tory high-spending/low-stimulus/low-tax model and the machinations of the now-infamous Gnomes of Zurich, caused inflation spread out over a number of Parliamentary terms.

In addition to that, the only people likely to suffer from inflation are those who hold large sums in currency, generally the extremely rich. Through the inflation-hysteria of the 70s the rate of inflation never exceeded the rate of economic growth. The same can't be said for the period after the introduction of Thatcherite deflationary policies. Look at the hyper-inflationary states of recent years: the Argentines and so on following "deflationary" IMF guidelines, the Zimbabweans when their entire export base was wiped out by the government and so on.

Remember what fiat currency is: purely representational.

Also, I have presented my idea previously that there is no shortage of food or energy. Not even a conceviable shortage, just an engineered one.

Economics is a simple matter. Only idiots think it's a science, the dismal science as it's called, it's really a battlefield. There are policies which favour the rich and those which favour the masses, and there are those who wish to convince you that the one is the other.

JackRiddler wrote:
selective panic monger gonzalo lira wrote:Therefore, as Spock always sez, if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.


Spock?!

With that he demonstrates at least to the geek faction that he's willing to pull anything out of his ass. Just in case any of them were going to fall for what follows...


Spock did say it, Sherlock didn't. I think it was in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, off the top of my head.

As Spock always says, only Nixon could go to China.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:39 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:
selective panic monger gonzalo lira wrote:Therefore, as Spock always sez, if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.


Spock?!

With that he demonstrates at least to the geek faction that he's willing to pull anything out of his ass. Just in case any of them were going to fall for what follows...


Spock did say it, Sherlock didn't. I think it was in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, off the top of my head.

As Spock always says, only Nixon could go to China.


Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country

Spock: An ancestor of mine maintained, that if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

http://www.angelfire.com/oh/quotations/ ... trek6.html


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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:57 pm

.

Shite, an economy really is enormously complicated and full of moving parts and unknown unknowns. There are countless players with different agendas, many with secret agendas, and agendas generally are crafted in blindness to other agendas, and then the thing-as-a-whole really does sometime go and do things no one expected. And, of course, there is the famous feedback or reflexivity, by which what people believe affects what happens. So we could all turn out to be full of shit in our predictions, or get them right solely by luck, and I know I've done both often enough, and should be humble. I shouldn't rant like above, or say anything about the subject at all, without also including these caveats. Now that I have, however, back to a basic truth: Most products of mainstream economics are simplistic faith assertions cloaked in complicated voodoo intoned to disguise naked class war. In this realm therefore "cui bono" is an often useful (if not inerrant) technique in understanding what's really been said.

.

Stephen Morgan wrote:
selective panic monger gonzalo lira wrote:Therefore, as Spock always sez, if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.


JackRiddler wrote:Spock?!

With that he demonstrates at least to the geek faction that he's willing to pull anything out of his ass. Just in case any of them were going to fall for what follows...


Spock did say it, Sherlock didn't. I think it was in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, off the top of my head.

As Spock always says, only Nixon could go to China.


Dr. Morgan! I don't have a Compleat Sherlock at hand, but am willing to cite the following article of Holmes (Doyle) quotes because of the trust-inducing indicator that it is sorted by story and gives page numbers:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes

SNIP

The Sign of the Four (1890)

SNIP

How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?
Chap. 6, p. 111


Furthermore, same page:

Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth.
Chap. 1, p. 92; similar expressions occur in The Sign of the Four, chap. 6; The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, "The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet"; The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes, "Silver Blaze"; The Return of Sherlock Holmes, "The Adventure of the Priory School"; His Last Bow, "The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans"; The Case-Book of Sherlock Holmes, "The Adventure of the Blanched Soldier".


As for Spock, it turns out the character explicitly quotes the saying in Star Trek VI, while also claiming Holmes (or Doyle?) as his ancestor. Whether he means by biological lineage or by philosophy is left open:

http://www.angelfire.com/oh/quotations/movies/s/startrek6.html

Spock: An ancestor of mine maintained, that if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.


My trust indicator for the above page is that it's obviously by a geek.

Since Spock is quoting, it's no more his sentence than it is that of anyone else who's quoted it. You can also find it all over the Web, unattributed.

Now I will avoid the part where I establish my superior geekhood by arguing that only the original Star Trek series is canonical! Because, Stephen, the truth is, I've seen your sites, and I know you to be the greater geek.

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