"Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby wintler2 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:11 pm

JackRiddler wrote:.
wintler2, please don't put words in my mouth. You pretty much do so down the line in your last post, in each case interpreting things I didn't say or even contrary to what I said, and it's too much work to respond to each one of those. (A reader who doubts that can just compare each of my quoted sentences and see if your some-time non-sequitur refutations follow by any logic.)
I guess i'll need to reread you another day, cos i can't see where i've misrepresented you.

JackRiddler wrote: I especially don't like the part where you attribute to me some kind of denial about ecological disaster, the loss of species and languages and human rights, and so forth. So stop that. Thank you.
I think thats your touchiness and the baldness of text, cos while it is unclear what you mean by collapse, my references to those other kinds was purely to add context and i make no attribution of denial to you. Its tricky when you don't provide relevant quote.

JR wrote:The first steps in a conversion involve a lot of power-down, conservation and efficiency measures. Has to start with the war economy, pageant consumption and building efficiency, then how work and residence are arranged within cities, transport of all kinds (mass rather than automotive, light rail before high-speed), and maximum use starting immediately of the decentral, renewable alternatives. A power grid has to be developed that can efficiently take energy from decentral sources as available (which is not what the strawman you're trying to make out of me).
Thankyou for explaining, i broadly agree, with addition of mass education as preceding powerdown, and ommission of building a new centralised grid.

JR wrote: Nothing is stopping the building of solar-hydrogen facilities starting today, ...

..except the fact that hydrogen is an entirely impractical energy storage medium. Nearly nowhere in the world is it used at the moment. It did get a few years in the sun at end of BushIIs reign, but i believe all related corporate welfare/grant funded research has finished. Hydrogen has low energy density, is v.expensive to safely contain, is highly explosive, is corrosive to all existing pipeline and storage infrastructure, and it requires big volumes of fresh water to donate the H. IMHO it will play no significant part in future energy tech..
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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby justdrew » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:32 pm

well, this makes a lot of sense really. It's been said that the global average temperature hasn't gone up as much a might have been expected based on a simple model calculation. This is no doubt due to energy being absorbed into melting of ice and also into coherent wind energy, rather than the random molecular motion of heat.
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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:55 pm

wintler2 wrote:
JR wrote: Nothing is stopping the building of solar-hydrogen facilities starting today, ...

Hydrogen has low energy density, is v.expensive to safely contain, is highly explosive, is corrosive to all existing pipeline and storage infrastructure, and it requires big volumes of fresh water to donate the H. IMHO it will play no significant part in future energy tech..


All of these are not obstacles to solar-hydrogen plants for power generation. The solar would be primary and also creates hydrogen, which need only be stored on site and burned off as needed to make up for solar shortfalls. Building such plants begins the long process of tackling solutions to the technical problems you describe, possibly leading to higher efficiencies and development of means for transporting hydrogen and using it as fuel. Already these problems don't seem nearly as dramatic in a direct comparison with the current modes of power generation. In the face of inevitable human species collapse given the present energy system, I'm sick of hearing reasons why every single possible alternative should not be tried and developed generously to discover what works.

Imagine if in 1870 some crew of highly qualified Pennsylvania oil engineers, the most knowledgable guys in the field at the time, got together and tried to figure out what the petroleum economy would look like in 1910. There would be things all of them saw coming, things only some of them got right, things they'd get woefully wrong, and things none of them imagined. The present situation calls for a system-wide transformation of infrastructure (to decentral sources, for the most part), power-down and multiple Apollo-project bets. I'd rather see 10 billion dollars each risked on developing 10 uncertain alternatives, even if five or more of these turn out to be completely infeasible, than another six months of the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan for the same price. Wouldn't you?

If a natural disaster had led to a sequence of events that caused six hydrogen power plants to blow up in Japan, we'd have mourned the tragic loss of maybe as many people as are killed in a typical passenger plane crash, and forgotten about it after 36 hours. If the waste product had flowed into the sea... oh, the waste product is water. Poor sea!

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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:02 pm

.

Oh, and while we're making up reasons why There Is No Alternative, let's have a look at a tiny portion of what the present dominance of hydrocarbons and nuclear means...

elpuma wrote:
At a White House meeting in early February, Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper assured President Obama that "Canada is the largest, the most secure, the most stable, and the friendliest supplier of that most vital of all America's purchases: energy.


Tomgram: Ellen Cantarow, Dirty Energy's Dirty Deeds

When it comes to energy there are no easy answers. This was painfully evident last week when President Barack Obama gave a speech on “America’s Energy Security” at Georgetown University.

“We’ve known about the dangers of our oil dependence for decades,” Obama told the audience, explaining that every president since Richard Nixon has talked about “freeing ourselves from dependence on foreign oil,” without delivering anything of the sort. Already a member of that club, he doubled down, telling the crowd that in ten years: “[W]e can cut our oil dependence by a third.”

The speech was destined to be a loser and the caveats came on fast and furious. America needed to cut its reliance on foreign oil, Obama told the crowd of politicos and college students, and drilling at home was one avenue toward that goal. He proudly announced, “we’ve approved 39 new shallow-water permits; we’ve approved seven deepwater permits in recent weeks. When it comes to drilling offshore, my administration approved more than two permits last year for every new well that the industry started to drill.” While embracing a “drill, baby, drill” ethos, the president was forced to admit it was not a long-term solution. He not only acknowledged that there isn’t nearly enough domestic oil to meet the country’s needs, but the specter of disaster loomed so large that he had to address it as well. “I don’t think anybody here has forgotten what happened last year, where we had to deal with the largest oil spill in [our] history,” he said, according to the White House’s official transcript.

Later he came to the subject of nuclear power. If BP’s Gulf of Mexico disaster was the elephant in the room, Japan’s Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station was a blue whale. “Now, in light of the ongoing events in Japan, I want to just take a minute to talk about nuclear power,” the president began, before extolling its supposed virtues as a clean energy source. “So those of us who are concerned about climate change, we’ve got to recognize that nuclear power, if it’s safe, can make a significant contribution to the climate change question.” By the end, he left no room for debate about the future of atomic power in the United States, telling the audience: “[W]e can’t simply take it off the table.”

Ongoing events. It was a curious and entirely disingenuous way to describe the ever-worsening disaster at Fukushima when, just the day before, Japan’s prime minister, Naoto Kan, told his Parliament, “The earthquake, tsunami and the ensuing nuclear accident may be Japan’s largest-ever crisis.” He said this, it’s worth reminding ourselves, about a country that, within living memory, saw more than 60 of its cities reduced to ashes through systematic firebombing and two metropolises obliterated by atomic bombs, losing hundreds of thousands of its citizens in one of the most devastating wars of a conflict-filled century. In fact, the very morning that Obama gave his speech, the New York Times quoted Tetsuo Iguchi, a professor in the department of quantum engineering at Nagoya University, about a subject that only a few outside observers had dared to previously broach: the prospect of a swath of Japan becoming an irradiated dead zone. “The worst-case scenario is that a meltdown makes the plant’s site a permanent grave,” Iguchi said.

Between his soft-peddling of ecological and humanitarian catastrophes resulting from dirty energy and his advocacy of a variety of dubious strategies for freeing America from the chains of foreign petroleum, the president admitted that the U.S. would continue to import oil for the foreseeable future. “It will remain an important part of our energy portfolio for quite some time until we’ve gotten alternative energy strategies fully in force,” Obama told the crowd. “And when it comes to the oil we import from other nations, obviously we’ve got to look at neighbors like Canada and Mexico that are stable and steady and reliable sources.”

Unlike offshore drilling and nuclear power, reliance on neighboring countries for a particularly dirty form of energy didn’t prompt any excuses or handwringing from the president, as if petroleum from Mexico (a place his secretary of state likened to insurgent-embattled Colombia of the 1990s) and Canada posed no problems. If you believe that, then I’ve got an electric power company in Japan to sell you.

As Ellen Cantarow makes clear, oil flowing south from Canada poses its own devastating risks, and if pipelines proceed as industry desires, may someday turn out to be yet another debacle to be explained away in a future American presidentʼs energy security speech. Nick

Energy Is Ugly
Tar Sands Make Their Mark
By Ellen Cantarow

For years, “not in my backyard” has been the battle cry of residents in Cape Cod who stand opposed to an offshore wind farm in Nantucket Sound. The giant turbines will forever mar the beauty of the landscape, they say.

Energy is ugly. Some forms more so than others, as nuclear near-meltdowns in Japan, the BP disaster in the Gulf of Mexico, and deaths in a West Virginia Coal Mine explosion have driven home in the last year. Energy kills plants, plankton, and people. It imperils the environment, poisons the oceans, and is threatening to turn part of Japan, one of the most advanced nations on the planet, into a contaminated zone for decades to come.

David Daniel knows this all too well. He built his dream home on 20 acres of lush wilderness, alive with panthers, wild boar, and deer, in Winnsboro, East Texas. Then a nightmare called tar sands appeared on his doorstep.

Tar sands are sandy soils laden with a tar-like substance called bitumen. Getting oil out of them is a dirty, dangerous, and deadly process. Daniel knew none of this when a neighbor phoned in the fall of 2008 to say that he’d seen trespassers on the property. “I went back [from work] and I found survey stakes that cut my property in half,” he recalls. Several months later, an eminent domain letter arrived, telling him that a pipeline carrying oil from Canada’s “oil sands” would cut through his pristine property. When he complained to TransCanada, the company in charge, its lawyer responded with a veiled threat: “Should I put the letter in the ‘cooperative’ or the ‘uncooperative pile?’”

So began the Daniel family’s struggles with TransCanada, whose powerful US backers include Koch Industries (best known for its stealth attacks on the federal government, and big spending on climate-change-denial campaigns). By the time TransCanada’s surveyors entered the Daniels’ lives, the corporation was already hard at work pushing a pipeline that would run from the Canadian border to Texas’s Gulf Coast, along the way slicing through the Daniels’ land and the properties of countless other Americans.

At no time did TransCanada’s representatives volunteer information about tar sands, leaving Daniel to do his own research. When he asked how tar sands oil would affect the pipeline, TransCanada responded only that the effects would be determined after the pipeline was put in place. “They made us feel like lab rats on our own property,” he says.

Behind his painful schooling in corporate arrogance lies a startling fact: Canada is the leading oil-supplier of the United States. Let me repeat that: the U.S. imports more oil from Canada than (yes) Mexico, which ranks second, and (believe it or not) Saudi Arabia, which ranks only third. Tar sands are largely responsible for Canada’s new petro-status. Nearly a million barrels of tar sands oil arrive in the U.S. every day. By 2025, Canada is expected to be producing 3.5 million barrels of tar sands oil daily. Most of that, says Ryan Salmon of the National Wildlife Federation, will be imported to the U.S. And believe me, when it comes to energy ugly, tar sands could take the cake.

Not Tar, Not Oil

In fact, “tar sands” is a colloquialism for 54,000 square miles of bitumen that veins sand and clay beneath the boreal forests of Alberta, one of Canada’s western provinces. Black as it is, bitumen isn’t actually tar, though it looks and smells like tar, and has its consistency on a very cold day -- hence, that term “tar sands.” (The corporations that produce the stuff prefer “oil sands.”)

Unlike oil, bitumen does not flow. Gouged and steamed out from under the forest, it is wrenched from the soil, barreled, and then refined into synthetic crude oil -- at shattering environmental costs. The tar sands industry has ravaged Alberta’s forests, poisoned its air and water, and wrecked the livelihoods of its indigenous peoples. Moreover, producing synthetic crude from a barrel of bitumen generates at least twice as much greenhouse gas as producing a barrel of normal crude oil. At 1.5 million barrels of tar sands oil a day, that’s a lot of global warming.

But for corporations intent on profits in a world rocked by Middle East and North African uprisings that might threaten global oil supplies, and by declining reserves of normal crude, environmental catastrophe is trivial collateral damage. The tar sands’ great selling point in the U.S. is that it comes from a friendly neighbor. Russ Girling, president and CEO of TransCanada, typically touts tar sands as improving "U.S. energy security and reduc[ing] dependence on foreign oil from the Middle East and Venezuela," At a White House meeting in early February, Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper assured President Obama that "Canada is the largest, the most secure, the most stable, and the friendliest supplier of that most vital of all America's purchases: energy.”

A complex alchemy turns bitumen into synthetic crude. Canadian journalist and tar sands expert Andrew Nikiforuk calls this final product “the world’s dirtiest hydrocarbon oil.” Canada used to transform bitumen from its rawest into its ultimate form, sending synthetic crude through pipelines to the U.S. Now, however, with Canada’s refineries maxing out, U.S. refineries are increasingly taking up the task of turning bitumen into the mock crude that makes even my Prius environmentally unfriendly. That means what’s coming to Americans in ever increasing quantities is a very raw form of diluted bitumen called DilBit, whose transport will make lab rats of us all.

Under jaunty names like “Lakehead,” “Alberta Clipper,” and “Keystone,” a vast pipeline network is already pumping this diluted bitumen to the Midwest and into the American heartland. The 1,900-mile-long Lakehead pipeline, owned by Canada’s Enbridge Inc., skirts one of the world’s largest stretches of fresh water, the Great Lakes.

Last June, Enbridge’s main competitor, TransCanada, opened a $5 billion, 2,147-mile pipeline it dubbed Keystone I, which plunges from Canada straight through the eastern parts of the Dakotas and Kansas to the Gulf Coast. Now, TransCanada is pushing hard for an extension, the Keystone XL, the one that will run through David Daniel’s land on its way to the Gulf coast.

In February, a landmark report by the National Resources Defense Council (NRDC) noted that diluted bitumen is “the primary product” carried by the Keystone I. The proposed Keystone XL, write the report’s authors, will be dedicated only to DilBit whose “combination of chemical corrosion and physical abrasion can dramatically increase the rate of pipeline deterioration." So imagine this recipe for pipelines from hell: take thick, raw, corrosive, acid-ridden bitumen and add volatile natural gas to propel it since the bitumen doesn’t flow by itself; next, crank up the temperatures and pressures far higher than those needed to move ordinary crude oil (again, to help the stuff on its way). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand some of the possible dangers of moving tar sands oil in this state through our communities.

The Tar Sands Come to Kellogg’s

Last July, as BP’s catastrophe in the Gulf was making news around the clock, the U.S. experienced its first big DilBit moment. Part of Enbridge’s Lakehead line broke, oozing black gunk into a tributary of the Kalamazoo River near Battle Creek, Michigan, iconic home to cereal-maker Kellogg’s. Twelve hours passed before workers responded to the surge of sludge, which by then had passed from the tributary into the river itself. The dark slop could be seen from bank to bank in the Kalamazoo, making its way to Lake Michigan.

High levels of benzene filled the air and local residents had to be evacuated from their homes. When the sludge passed through Battle Creek, the Kellogg’s factory even stopped making cornflakes. The spill was arrested before it could reach Lake Michigan, but not before a million gallons of DilBit had fouled a 30-mile-long stretch of the Kalamazoo, one of the biggest spills in Midwest history.

This was, however, no “ordinary” oil spill, as DilBit spills are much harder to clean up. Once DilBit hits water, the bitumen in it doesn’t float; it quickly sinks into river sediment. Exposed to sunlight, it forms a dense, sticky substance hard to remove from rock and soil.

Special dredging and other equipment is needed for any effective cleanup. The booms you saw skimming the Gulf last summer are inadequate, and the U.S. doesn’t yet have DilBit cleanup technology. So while cleanup crews worked on the Kalamazoo and its banks after the spill was discovered, they left a whole lot of DilBit behind. Adequate cleanup isn’t expected until at least late 2011, according to the NRDC’s Susan Casey-Lefkowitz.

At the time of the Kalamazoo spill, Enbridge’s CEO, Patrick Daniels, claimed that there had never been a leak “of this consequence” in the company’s history. According to Enbridge’s own reports, however, between 2000 and 2009 the company was responsible for 610 pipeline spills in Canada, totaling 5.5 million gallons. (Not all were DilBit, which makes the picture worse, not better, since ordinary crude is less corrosive and volatile than DilBit.) In Michigan, 12 spills from Enbridge’s pipelines preceded the larger one in the Kalamazoo. Two months after that spill, another part of Enbridge’s Lakehead pipeline leaked 256,000 gallons of DilBit into Romeoville, a suburb of Chicago.

Keystone’s underground pipeline to the Gulf Coast, which opened only nine months ago, has already leaked seven times. They have been small leaks, but significant nonetheless as they point to larger, more distressing problems. “It seems odd to us that a brand-new pipeline would have these little spills throughout,” says Casey-Lefkowitz. “It raises questions about the quality of construction.”

“TransCanada is building its pipelines according to strength regulations designed for conventional pipelines decades ago,” adds Anthony Swift, co-author of the NRDC report. Swift says the company “has not yet provided a meaningful strategy for dealing with some of the characteristics of diluted bitumen.”

The proposed Keystone XL, also underground, would carry up to 900,000 barrels of DilBit (37,800,000 gallons) south every day, passing through some of the most sensitive ecosystems in the U.S., including rivers, wildlife preserves, and wide expanses of prairie. In addition, it would run through the Ogallala aquifer, a 174,000-square-mile expanse of water that lies under eight states from the Dakotas to Texas and provides 30% of the nation’s irrigation for agriculture, as well as drinking water for 82% of the people within its vast boundaries.

The pipeline would pass through areas where landslides and earthquakes are known threats. Part of Keystone I already traverses an area of seismic activity in Nebraska, where a recent tremor -- 3.5 on the Richter scale -- shook the ground throughout the southeast part of the state. It also runs through the easternmost part of the Ogallala. Before Keystone I was built, a National Wildlife Federation report warned, "Some portions of the aquifer are so close to the surface that any pipeline leak would almost immediately contaminate a large portion of the water."

TransCanada cannot begin constructing Keystone XL without both presidential permission and a State Department environmental impact statement (EIS), made necessary because the project crosses international borders. The State Department issued that EIS in April 2010 in the wake of public hearings in towns along the pipeline route. Environmental organizations, landowners, and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) were sharply critical of the EIS. Among other things, says the NRDC’s Anthony Swift, the statement failed to demonstrate “the need for the pipeline, its safety, and its greenhouse gas impacts.” Especially troubling, according to Susan Casey-Lefkowitz, was the failure to consider an alternate pipeline route that would not slash through the Ogallala aquifer.

Last month, under pressure from mounting opposition to the pipeline by a coalition of grassroots groups, the State Department held further meetings in Washington to hear their grievances. (The EPA also met with coalition leaders.) Ben Gotschall, a fifth generation Nebraska organic rancher, called the State Department’s environmental statement “insulting.” It suggested, he said, neither that stronger than normal pipeline materials should be used, nor that there might be alternative routes to the one currently proposed. TransCanada’s only concern, he insisted, was cost, while at stake was the “life and livelihood of millions of people.”

“My family has been producing grass-fed beef for five generations,” said Gotschall. “We do this organically, without chemicals and with minimum fossil fuel inputs... Nebraska farmers and ranchers were producing food long before we had the benefit of fossil fuels and we can and will find a way to produce food long after fossil fuels are gone. But we will never be able to produce food without clean water. To me, this pipeline is an issue of national security that threatens our domestic food and water supply.”

If the pipeline goes through, a handful of giant corporations will profit, among them Koch Industries which handles about 25% of tar sands imports to the U.S., and is among the biggest of U.S. tar sands refiners. Meanwhile, the grassroots opposition uniting farmers and ranchers, environmentalists and scientists is growing in the heartland states.

Last month, the coalition demanded that the State Department issue a supplemental environmental impact statement. On March 16th, Ben Gotschall e-mailed: “If you haven't heard already, the State Department has called for a supplemental draft EIS... This is a victory for all of us who have been fighting this from the beginning.” On March 24th, 25 mayors sent a letter to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton: “We are concerned,” they wrote, “that expansion of high carbon projects such as the proposed Keystone XL tar sands pipeline will undermine the good work being done in local communities across the country to fight climate change and reduce our dependence on oil.”

Yet in the wake of the Fukushima nuclear disaster, domestic fears over nuclear energy are spiking, while months of turmoil in the Muslim world have highlighted a growing U.S. dependence on Middle Eastern oil. As a result, it will surely become harder to derail the efforts of TransCanada and Koch Industries to ram a pipeline filled with toxic tar sands oil right through David Daniel’s property.

Will a pipeline leak one day kill off his old growth hardwood trees, foul his three natural springs, and poison the deer now roaming his land? If TransCanada’s checkered history is any guide, it’s a real possibility. Energy kills. In Japan. In the Gulf. In Appalachian mines. And in the Corn Flake capital of the world. If Winnsboro, East Texas, is added to the list, it won’t be a surprise, not to David Daniel anyway. He knows what we all know now: in the hands of corporations whose only concern is profit, energy is ugly.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175376
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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby wintler2 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:58 am

JackRiddler wrote:All of these are not obstacles to solar-hydrogen plants for power generation. .. Building such plants begins the long process of tackling solutions to the technical problems you describe, possibly leading to higher efficiencies and development of means for transporting hydrogen and using it as fuel.

Efficiencies of conversion are determined by physics not engineering, and pumped hydro or el.car batteries are better storages, read/listen to Dr. Ulf Bossel, organizer of the Lucerne Fuel Cell Forum, talks about the future of the hydrogen economy and the more efficient electron economy.


JackRiddler wrote: .. In the face of inevitable human species collapse given the present energy system, I'm sick of hearing reasons why every single possible alternative should not be tried and developed generously to discover what works.

Handwaving and exageration.
Why do the things 'tried' always have to be high tech centralised power things? Why never 'suck it up and adapt' things, or 'is what i want fair and possible' things?
Bloody socialists, always with the monorails! (joke!)

If we were 30 years before peak of conventional oil, i might say whatev', go for it. But we're 5 years past and with massive recurrent energy needs. We must meet minimum needs by the cheapest, least harmful (vis pollution, resource depletion, social impacts) and most resilient means available, and hydrogen production & storage loses on all fronts.

I don't know for sure, but i'll bet that you cannot find an extant commercial (not research) project of any size anywhere in the world using hydrogen storage in its energy supply management.
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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby Sounder » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:26 am

wintler2, I would suggest that your stance reflects a common cultural demand for certainty, whereas I consider this quest to be a source of our disease because it tends to ‘fix the category’ and thereby inhibit imagination. Down through the ages the struggle has been between two impulses within our psyches that we all share. The dominant impulse is for deferral to authority because that element is more designed into our cultural conditioning system. Even if more nascent in its expressions, we may want to consider that a second impulse contains much more potential for cultural reformation than can any techno improvement that is derived from current sets of beliefs.

The second impulse has always ridden on the undercurrents of our cultural psyche, which is the feeling or desire for a direct and unmediated connection to Source. My contention is that a process oriented rather than a belief oriented psychical conditioning system would encourage this second impulse to flourish.

The planet fuckers are not intentionally destroying everything in sight. It’s just that their self interest depends on the larger populations not coming to recognize the creative potential of consciousness. The empire depends on the maintenance of rigid beliefs.

Because of some early experiences in my life I came to feel that ‘normative science’ is wildly off base. (The standard model is a joke with its fetish for finding ‘fundamental’ particles.) This led me to examine the biographies and thinking of any non normative thinkers that I could find. I found a thematic consistency among many of these folk who seem to be attempting to grapple with a substance that does not behave like electricity and yet seems to facilitate its activity and be associated with it. These are unsung heroes who withstood the catcalls of society so that they might follow their genius. While normative science and society does all it can to bury these personalities in our history books, my personal assessment is that most of these folk had much more raw intelligence than did their contemporaries and naysayers. With the support of normative bias the naysayers have and continue to win the day, yet eventually reality will break down these beliefs.

I wish I were as smart as any one of these ‘cranks’.

Baron Karl von Reichenbach
Antonio Meucci
Nathan Stubblefield
Nicola Tesla
R. Raymond Rife
Thomas Henry Moray
Thomas Townsend Brown
Gavreau
Philo Farnsworth
All from Lost Science by Gerry Vassilatos

For a more conventional example of normative bias, consider the experience of Charles Parsons. This fellow had to rub his superior’s nose in it before they could see the reality of his claims. I’m afraid that the Italian professors may not have been public enough in their nose rubbing attempt, as our ‘superiors’ generally don’t put up with that sort of thing. If their thing is for real we will not likely hear anything more from them.

http://www-g.eng.cam.ac.uk/125/noflash/ ... sons2.html

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All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:00 pm

I know the title of the thread is about wind, but it seems to have evolved into a general discussion about alternative forms of energy.

Google Invests in World’s Largest Solar Power Tower Plant

Google has just sealed a deal to invest $168 million in a Mojave Desert solar energy plant.

The investment is going to BrightSource Energy, a company that develops and operates large-scale solar power plants, specifically to fund its Ivanpah project.

Ivanpah is a solar electric generating system that uses solar thermal technology and “an environmentally responsible design,” to deliver reliable, clean and low-cost power to Californians, according to the project’s website.

The plant will generate energy with a technology called power towers. Mirrors, called heliostats, are arranged in an array and aim the sun’s rays at a receiver atop a tower. The receiver generates steam; the steam causes a turbine to rotate; the rotation causes a generator to generate electricity. Because such large quantities of solar energy are being directed to such a small area, the power towers are very efficient.

The power tower at Ivanpah will be around 450 feet tall. The plant will use 173,000 heliostats, and each heliostat will have two mirrors, making Ivanpah the largest project of its kind.

Construction at Ivanpah should be completed in 2013.

Google’s been on something of a clean energy investment kick over the past year or so. The company was granted the ability to buy and sell energy as a public utility last February, ostensibly to find better ways to power its own massive data centers.

A short time later, Google began making significant investments in green energy technologies. The company sealed a $38 million wind farm investment in May, bought 20 years’ worth of wind farm energy in July and provided a substantial investment for a huge offshore wind farm in October.

Rick Needham is Google’s Director of Green Business Operations. On the company blog, he writes, “We hope that investing in Ivanpah spurs continued development and deployment of this promising technology while encouraging other companies to make similar investments in renewable energy.”
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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby charlie meadows » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:27 pm

http://lightbucket.wordpress.com/2008/0 ... lar-power/

Nanotechnology promises to deliver a breakthrough is solar cell fabrication. New nanoparticle inks are being used to make spray-on solar cells. By replacing vacuum deposition with printing, these nanoparticle inks enable continuous roll-to-roll production of solar panels. Nanotechnology looks set to transform the economics of solar energy.


The best known company in the field is Nanosolar. With its talent for self-promotion, it has served as the poster boy for the technology. Founded in 2002 [2] by the serial technology entrepreneur Martin Roscheisen, Nanosolar has raised over $100 m in funding [3], and famously counts the Google founders Sergey Brin and Larry Page among its investors. The company has developed a nanoparticle semiconductor ink [4] that can simply be printed onto a roll of conductive substrate material. The process is many times cheaper and faster than conventional semiconductor processing methods. Nanosolar shipped its first solar panels in December 2007 [5]. It claims that its products halve the system cost of solar panels [6].
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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby ShinShinKid » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:35 pm

I read about someone who was able to ionize an entire batch of rubberized roof coating...he laid down roof-long strips of aluminum to a common point, covered them in roof coating, and was getting electricity out of it!

I think cheap, easy, solutions are the key.
How do I ionize roof coating?
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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:45 pm

.

Watch this video on Solar Highways:
http://www.wimp.com/solarhighways/

Capturing the heat that highways and parking lots already absorb from the sun would theoretically produce several times all presently consumed electrical power at a 15 percent rate of conversion. (Yes! Sounds high to me, for the moment.)

Is it crazy? Do the resources not exist? Assuming it actually works, the investment and labor would be comparable to the building of the interstate highway system in the first place. And the results would be decentral!

Right now there must be 200 crackpot ideas like this one out there. Development and testing of them should be generously subsidized by the public sector, creating a wealth of mini-Apollo projects (with half the patents in each case to remain public). It should be accepted that many of these projects will fail. You put in a lot of bets and see which one pays off. The ideas should be assessed without mercy by truly independent authorities to evaluate both feasibility and whether they're really environmental in terms of total ecological cost, all inputs and end products and cycles over hundreds of years to be considered. Then the ideas that really work should be implemented. That's a worthy cause to print money for, instead of keeping the derivatives pyramid from collapsing.

Then there are all the things we already know work: Light rail and bike lanes in the cities. Solar roof panels. Converting buildings for energy efficiency. Ending the wars and retiring the bases and the mass-killing platforms, the most useless industry, the one that consumes the most energy directly and causes the greatest destruction and pollution. Encouraging meat substitutes (oh horrors! economic disaster! unpatriotic! echoes of starvation!!! ugh, I hate tofu! oh horrid culture wars! the elite hate the McDonald's eaters! how can we survive on 100 meat meals instead of 365 a year?! etc. etc.). And I mean that merely: encouraging through a shifting of the subsidies and by education. Not requiring, but Americans will be treating it like you proposed crucifying and chopping up Jesus and feeding him to the Christians with their wine. (Wait a minute... hmmm....)

Four hundred other power-down measures I won't list or forgot just now, that don't yet necessitate everyone living in darkness and chopping firewood, or whatever the green bogeyman is supposed to be. (Actually, unless you're into the big die-off, living in real cities like New York (not sprawl-burbs) is already per capita the most energy and resource efficient, and also offers the greatest untapped opportunities for further efficiency.)

The process should begin immediately. It should be considered as urgent, as vital and noble a cause as World War II. It should be accompanied by a comparable cultural ferment, with every idiot trying to find the solutions in their own lives. It should be considered COOL. Unfortunately, we still have the same stasis we did in fucking 1978!

.
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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby wintler2 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:02 pm

JackRiddler wrote:.Watch this video on Solar Highways:
http://www.wimp.com/solarhighways/

So i can see some guy in his shed saying "what if we covered all the roads with solar panels"?!?

WTF Jack, i can see that you and i don't speak the same language as far as credible science or engineering go.

I agree with most of your powerdown policy suggestions, and am arguing that we should be focusing of implementing them rather than wasting resources we cannot spare on boondoggles that cannot work like 'solar highways' or hydrogen storage.


But by all means, lets avoid talking about one of the quite real and hazardous impacts of climate change, increased winds, and instead recycle some technology cargo cult dreamings, all the better to pretend that it is government/business/someone else that should do something.
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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:48 pm

wintler2 wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:.Watch this video on Solar Highways:
http://www.wimp.com/solarhighways/

So i can see some guy in his shed saying "what if we covered all the roads with solar panels"?!?


This is an outrageous misrepresentation of the video. I doubt you watched more than a few seconds.

WTF Jack, i can see that you and i don't speak the same language as far as credible science or engineering go.


I hear that locomotives will never be able to travel more than 30 mph, because the human body would not withstand such speeds.

I agree with most of your powerdown policy suggestions, and am arguing that we should be focusing of implementing them rather than wasting resources we cannot spare on boondoggles that cannot work like 'solar highways' or hydrogen storage.


Nonsense. Many trillions per decade currently are wasted on boondoggles like bank bailouts and mass murder in Asia, among hundreds of other barbaric uses. I'm all for taking a hundred billion of that and blowing it on development of thousands of ideas like the above, even if 90 percent of them go nowhere. The solar highway may be in the 90 percent, but neither of us knows that. The idea is brilliant. You don't know right now if a non-glare, transparent surface that can withstand trucks for decades can be developed at a feasible cost in energy-units with available material. If it can, what follows is no more a feat than building the interstates in the first place. There are dozens of other crazy-sounding ideas out there right now, and we should be willing to lose money on them.

But by all means, lets avoid talking about one of the quite real and hazardous impacts of climate change, increased winds, and instead recycle some technology cargo cult dreamings, all the better to pretend that it is government/business/someone else that should do something.


What are you suggesting? Personal downshifting on your little plot of land so you can pretend that makes the difference and it's the fault of everyone else for not doing the same, so you can have a clean conscience while the society as a whole (in which you have no part, I presume?) continues over the cliff, with you most likely still attached in ways you haven't imagined? Or if not, then what?

.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby DrVolin » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:13 pm

Atmospheric warming = more energy = stronger winds.
all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:20 pm

Just another night here in the big apple with 19 mph winds pounding at my windows.

It's seriously to the point where a day with mild wind is a shocking rarity.
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Re: "Earth Getting Mysteriously Windier"

Postby norton ash » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:36 am

Wild out there again today, midwest, great lakes. The odd nuke plant.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... 7767.story

Tornado Season 2011 Already Above Average
Forecast weather.com William Browning William Browning – Mon Apr 18, 6:37 pm ET

An outbreak of over 100 tornadoes in the United States has left at least 45 people feared dead across the lower Midwest and South. Deaths occurred from southeast Oklahoma into North Carolina. The Tar Heel state was the hardest hit with at least 22 deaths, over half of the reported total.

Two nuclear reactors in southwest Virginia shut down automatically when a tornado cut off the main electrical supply to the Surry Power Station. Backup generators kicked in and the reactors continued to deliver power. More than 200,000 electrical customers in North Carolina were without power.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110418/us_ ... ve_average
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