a little reminder... on differences...

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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby compared2what? » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:56 am

Nordic wrote:
justdrew wrote:yes. thank you. I was getting ready to pull out Bob Altmyer's The Authoritarians for the 100th time. There is no doubt the OP is spot on. It's not right/left so much as Authoritarian mentality vs everyone else.

This radical inability to even SEE YOUR ENEMY is kinda pathetic. Joe Kucklehead, if he votes republican, if he likes fox news, is indeed your enemy, and the enemy of every living thing on earth. Whether he knows it or not is wildly irrelevant. If he goes along just to get along with family, then that's tragic, but it doesn't change his choice to become the enemy. Do not hate your enemy, that's counterproductive, but you need to admit who they are when you can clearly discern them.

There isn't even a strategy of accommodation and no one has demonstrated, ever, a way around this PERENNIAL fundamental human conflict. It's the authoritarians or "us" - choose your side. Refusing to choose is still a choice.



Okay, I don't get it. I think we all realize that "they hate us", so what's the point? I think it's only the professional "leftists" like Obama who pretend that's not true. You know that whole "let's compromise because those people must have a point" nonsense.

But those professional leftists don't count, because they're frauds and liars and con artists.

I really don't see any point to the OP except to have a good, hard Five Minute Hate ourselves.

And anyone trying to manipulate me into hating someone else is not my friend.


I don't think he was preaching hate. As I read it, he was just responding to the "Why should I care about those folks?" rhetorical-question thingie that he quoted as if it had been more seriously intended than it probably was.

The format and style he used to vent his feelings might not have been the best way to get his point across, maybe. Or maybe I'm just reading a meaning into his words that isn't there. But I thought he was more or less saying: "Are you nuts? The reason you should care about people who want to take away your right to be the way they are is that they really want to take away your right to be the way you are!!!!"

And I feel that way myself sometimes. Or....I guess I actually feel something more like: The American right is way past the boundary of what I feel safe seeing people respond to as if it were perfectly ordinary, these days.

I mean, how many Christian Nationalists who wanted to make God's law the law of the land have there been in the Republican Presidential Primaries?

It's scary.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby justdrew » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:09 am

eyeno wrote:
the OP is a direct reaction to people who say such things as "let's compromise because those people must have a point" - stating the unfortunate truth is not the same as "manipulating"

History is strewn with the bodies of people who fought against the authoritarian mindset, as I said, this PERENNIAL fundamental human conflict. I for one would very much like to see it not happen again this time, because baring total collapse, failure this time is going to be it, technological supremacy will prevent any future resistance.

don't hate, but let's not forget, failure will have possibly final consequences



Differential reading skills are crucial huh? I get it. Hoping for compromise is fools gold around here. Its been great, and adios. Stupid for an animal to hope it can avert catastrophe for Gods and animals alike but you know what? Its already too late for that. This place is so toxic that nobody is likely to survive intact over the next thousands of years. Hate won. Kudos to hate huh...Fucked up the game for everybody, including hate. Game, set, and match is not a win when the game board is so fucked up that nobody survives it in the long run. This has happened time and time again over the ages but this time the environment is so toxic that NOBODY is likely to win the long game, not even the Gods.

later..................



I don't get what compromise you're looking for? You acknowledge this is not a new conflict. A new "peace" may come, and be negotiated, but we won't get there from a position of powerlessness.

It's certainly not the non-Authoritarians you need to be talking to about compromise. Heck, it's been decades and we can't even get MOST of "us" to realize their asses are on the line for realz this time. :shrug:

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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby compared2what? » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:26 am

Sounder wrote:
So yeah, there is a lot of common ground and much of the differences have been manufactured.


This is more bait that encourages it's own kind of passive aggressive and sublimated form of hate.

But hey, ain't it great to wake up in the morning knowing you are not some Neanderthal conservative and are so able to hide your own hate, well of course at least until AGW or racism come up. Then; Fuck it-- it's time to pile on and show those polluter loving elitist wang suckers that we mean business.


But Sounder....You can see the distinction between opposition to racism and racism, can't you?

"Hating" the belief that it's okay to subjugate an "inferior" caste or class of people and/or attempts to build a society based on it isn't a hatred of persons, it's a hatred of unjust and oppressive acts. Whereas "hating" a race is just, you know: Hatred.

I don't hate (or "hate") anybody. But I'm absolutely opposed to racism. (The AGW thing just seems to me like it's in a whole other category.)

Most people are not intrinsically ideological except that they are manipulated in these directions because of evil folk that make their living by stoking insecurities of their target audiences. (Well that and a split model of reality, but apparently that is a story for another day.) They try to make their victims feel special while the other is being knocked down. This manufactured tripe is playing leftists just as surely as David Duke Plays his targets.


I'm not sure about that. (I don't mean: "I disagree." I'm just really, actually not sure.) Are most people not intrinsically ideological? While stipulating in advance to my unsureness on the question, I guess I'd say that I think they are. In a way. Most people aren't political. But that's not the same thing.

Oh, but that's right, lefties are smarter than that, so that must not be the case here.


Most people are just people.*** Left versus right is not a better than/worse than proposition in that particular way, imo. It's a question of what kind of world a person thinks is fair and just and agreeable and (blah, blah, blah). And people are entitled to have different opinions about that.

Or so I think, anyway, being a woman of the left.

^^That's one reason why the right always ends up with an inherent advantage over the long-term. Funny. And sad. But true.
_____________

***...Um. Make that "all."
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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby eyeno » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:27 am

Heck, it's been decades and we can't even get MOST of "us" to realize their asses are on the line for realz this time.



The problem is that the game has gone too far and NOBODY will be the winner this time around. Enough is enough and sometimes "us" don't know when the game is won. The game has been won for so damn long its not even funny to talk about. This shit keeps happening over and over but this time, in my opinion, the game board has been upended and destroyed for thousands of years to come because it won't be fit for anybody to play on. We have fucked up the game for "us" all. Just the way it is. The hardliners won't take a fuckin break and bask in the Sun of victory long enough to relish it. There is such a thing as too much victory and even the spoils go down the damn tube. When will we ever learn?
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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby AlicetheKurious » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:41 am

JackRiddler wrote:Bullshit.

Especially the third paragraph, according to which I'm supposed to put "their" imagination on a par with reality. When did liberals ever call for the banning of churches, or make it illegal for Catholics and fundamentalists to marry?

The exercise of power, the physical abuse and state bias in each case is almost exclusively one-way: Against that perceived as left. Against that perceived as other. Against the have-nots.

I'm talking about the real state, not the stated ideals or the state as imagined by the right wing. Where do you see the billyclubs swinging, the tasers and tear-gas grenades firing, the LRAD trucks releasing sonic attacks, the stop-and-frisks en masse? Not at the Tea Party rally, even when they brandish automatic weapons. Not at the Chamber of Commerce. Not in rich white neighborhoods. Did you see what just happened to several hundred OWS occupations around the country? How can you sustain an equivalence argument after that?

And no, I'm not going to put hating some people because they ACT a certain way on the same plane as hating people because they ARE a certain way. The unconditional identity-based hate in this country has always come almost exclusively from people who identify politically to the right, and more from the top than the bottom.

Easy equivalence arguments are pernicious. Also a stock in trade of the right. They learned the lingo of revolution and tried to reverse every critique of them. The primary way they express their racism in discourse nowadays is to complain about "reverse racism."

.


I agree with every word.
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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby justdrew » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:46 am

eyeno wrote:
Heck, it's been decades and we can't even get MOST of "us" to realize their asses are on the line for realz this time.



The problem is that the game has gone too far and NOBODY will be the winner this time around. Enough is enough and sometimes "us" don't know when the game is won. The game has been won for so damn long its not even funny to talk about. This shit keeps happening over and over but this time, in my opinion, the game board has been upended and destroyed for thousands of years to come because it won't be fit for anybody to play on. We have fucked up the game for "us" all. Just the way it is. The hardliners won't take a fuckin break and bask in the Sun of victory long enough to relish it. There is such a thing as too much victory and even the spoils go down the damn tube. When will we ever learn?


maybe. The "winners" (and I do not concede the game just yet), have become like a cancer in the body of humanity; but in even advanced cases, spontaneous remission has been known to occur; and even from a medicine standpoint, the cancer cells still constitute only a small percent of total body cells and the bodies systems could learn to induce apoptosis in a sufficient number of cancer cells, if we can find the right method. Balance could be restored. It's not that we don't need some authoritarian mindset types, we need all types, in balance, but one type alone has come to dominate the rest, and it's killing the whole body.

well, the cancer metaphor may be apt, but it's not timely or kind. To move from metaphor to reality, some way must be found to weaken the Authoritarian political movement. Not destroy it, but to put it into proportion with other options.

but it's late. enough doom and gloom for now. faretheewell :thumbsup

la lucha continua...


as you say eyeno, "when will we ever learn?"

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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:04 am

eyeno wrote:
I don't need "the machine" to focus me. Fuck the racists you want to make friends with. When they give up their racism, then we can bridge our divide - maybe there won't even be one then. No compromise is possible on this point, white boy.



And your tell. How telling. What a master of peace you are. I'm into compromise, and for my own safety I am sorry that you are not.

Push pull technology. Ok. Exactly what keeps the hate train running. From where does this visceral hate come from, that you have, that would cause you to call me a "white boy"? Do yo know?

What color am I? Do you know? Am I a "white boy" or an "arabic boy" or a "jewish boy" or a "black boy" or a "hindu boy" or a "christian boy" or a "member of the catholic priest hood boy" or a "rabbi boy" or a "amazon native boy" or a "south african boy"? What am I? Other than a person that you know you hate?? Since you don't know what I am do you know why you hate me?

This is enough to eject me out of here. Its been fun but I know a threat when I see one. Later dudes. I don't feel safe here anymore. I don't think I will participate here anymore very likely.


It's a safe guess you're a "white boy" because you're an American talking shit about how much better things would be if only anti-racists could find a middle ground with white supremacists. This may not be racism talking directly. You may not be Caucasian. But you are definitely someone who doesn't feel affected by racism, or you would never speak such bullshit about meeting white supremacists halfway. (The supremacists can tolerate the inferiors half the time, their inferiors can be inferior in some things but not others, and then we're all united in the fight! Hooray!)

You conclude with the attempt to style your being called on bullshit into some kind of personal threat. Very dramatic. Stop giving false promises you're going away - it never works out.
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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby Searcher08 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:40 am

JackRiddler wrote:
eyeno wrote:
I don't need "the machine" to focus me. Fuck the racists you want to make friends with. When they give up their racism, then we can bridge our divide - maybe there won't even be one then. No compromise is possible on this point, white boy.



And your tell. How telling. What a master of peace you are. I'm into compromise, and for my own safety I am sorry that you are not.

Push pull technology. Ok. Exactly what keeps the hate train running. From where does this visceral hate come from, that you have, that would cause you to call me a "white boy"? Do yo know?

What color am I? Do you know? Am I a "white boy" or an "arabic boy" or a "jewish boy" or a "black boy" or a "hindu boy" or a "christian boy" or a "member of the catholic priest hood boy" or a "rabbi boy" or a "amazon native boy" or a "south african boy"? What am I? Other than a person that you know you hate?? Since you don't know what I am do you know why you hate me?

This is enough to eject me out of here. Its been fun but I know a threat when I see one. Later dudes. I don't feel safe here anymore. I don't think I will participate here anymore very likely.


It's a safe guess you're a "white boy" because you're an American talking shit about how much better things would be if only anti-racists could find a middle ground with white supremacists. This may not be racism talking directly. You may not be Caucasian. But you are definitely someone who doesn't feel affected by racism, or you would never speak such bullshit about meeting white supremacists halfway. (The supremacists can tolerate the inferiors half the time, their inferiors can be inferior in some things but not others, and then we're all united in the fight! Hooray!)

You conclude with the attempt to style your being called on bullshit into some kind of personal threat. Very dramatic. Stop giving false promises you're going away - it never works out.


I felt very uncomfortable reading your response to eyeno.
A longstanding forum member has expressed that they don't feel safe and feel threatened - and you approach is to belittle and mock???? Sure this place gets feisty, and I include myself in that, but IMHO there is a red line around intimidation. You have no idea what colour eyeno is; you have no idea whether he/she has been affected by racism and your assertions that you do have no basis in sensory reality.

How do you see this play out in the future? Will you have lists of people who are not to be spoken with? Will you reverse the Overton Window leftwards so we end up reliving the Joy Of Stalinism? What do you propose to DO with these people you hate? Exterminate them? Put them in FEMA Camps? Bind them like demons, with ropes of Holy Law?

In the real world, at the end of the day, it's like the IRA and the Loyalists. You either do an Israel and ignore / disenfranchise those you hate or you do a Northern Ireland and engage with them.
Engage doesn't mean agree or meet in some soggy middle. Engage can be the beginning of designing a solution.
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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby Sounder » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:46 am

C2W? wrote...
But Sounder....You can see the distinction between opposition to racism and racism, can't you?


Yes I do, but if sloppy word usage is what it takes to get a response, then that is good also.

In fact I am dedicated to oppose racism in its essence as well as its common forms that are paraded in front of ‘sensitive’ people to draw out a trigger reaction that serves to distract from the big time racists that would murder millions without remorse.

Quote:
Most people are not intrinsically ideological except that they are manipulated in these directions because of evil folk that make their living by stoking insecurities of their target audiences. (Well that and a split model of reality, but apparently that is a story for another day.) They try to make their victims feel special while the other is being knocked down. This manufactured tripe is playing leftists just as surely as David Duke Plays his targets.

C2W? wrote...
I'm not sure about that. (I don't mean: "I disagree." I'm just really, actually not sure.) Are most people not intrinsically ideological? While stipulating in advance to my unsureness on the question, I guess I'd say that I think they are. In a way. Most people aren't political. But that's not the same thing.

(Answer at the end, sort of)

My view comes from observation and is buttressed by the words of Abraham Heschel, who was recommended by my Zionist (racist) friend who told me of similarities in our thinking. Side note; my friend will probably always be racist, but that is his business and while I call him on this issue, I also greatly appreciate the time he spent with me trying to provide the educated version of my somewhat crude representations of certain philosophical points. (I love pretty much anybody that is willing to listen to my speculations.)

The Heschel model says that there are three types of people. One type is the Salvationists, who tend to do what they are told because they have determined that this is the way to ‘heaven’. The mirror of the Salvationists would be self-abdignationists, who would prefer to get rid of the self rather than to ‘save’ it.

However, and fortunately for us the great majority of people fall into a category that is driven by fellowship. They do what they can, unconsciously mostly, to be inclusive to all humans, in contrast to the self-righteous extremists that will devalue some humans at the drop of a hat. Now imagine how these people might flourish if our conceptual structures were designed to validate those fellowship actions, through a continuum based model of reality, in preference to our current split model of reality. The first thing is the self centered folk will lose their bully pulpits that serve to turn fellowship folk into extremists. Then those that self-identify as being at one end or the other of the continuum might be redeemed by their recognizing the bad as well as the good produced by their transitory understanding of reality (nature). Yes Satan and Lucifer will find redemption.

Now, I have done variations on this presentation for about 23 years now to both liberals and conservatives and the response has been similar for both groups and better than 70/30 in my favor. There are a good number of folk that do indeed react poorly to the (alleged) insolence involved in my manner of devaluing our existing structures of understanding, and indeed these critics are some of the smartest people out there, so I do try to account for objections. (Frankly many of these folk are merely better than the average folk at arranging existing categories, but as they have become form addicts they are generally not original thinkers.)

But when these type of folk sneer and try to mess with my life, it becomes a reinforcement to maintain focus and resonate with a one-part model. Because now that our analytical abilities have been at least somewhat honed through use of our current two-part object oriented model, it might be time to move along to find more useful ways to represent reality within the confines of concepts and words.

This thing is a revaluing of the subjective and an attempt to bring our objective understanding to a higher and more integrated level at the same time.

This is the dao that can be spoken, this is not the dao.

Anyway, my conservative daughter married a conservative accountant, and as they live 10 hours away I found an occasion to travel there with my son-in-laws dad. This fellow is a Limbaugh/ Sarah Palen loving conservative. Early in the ride I let XXXX know that I might have some fairly mean things to say about his hero’s. He gave me permission to let loose as everybody knows that rhetoric that cannot stand up to criticism is not worth much. Needless to say the presentation was a bit more epic than normal that day. Even the insinuation that church goers were under the influence of Satan or the static principle did not unduly upset my newly acquired in-law. In fact, he explained my picture in a fairly passable form to his son while we were out at the restaurant and drinking beer after dinner a few days later. My son-in-law also listens to my blather and now claims that he identifies as being conservative much less than he did when he was younger.

Everybody wants to justify their identity and if people can be shown that this can be done through love and integrative thinking better than doing it through coercive and exclusionary demagoguery, then surly most folk will choose love.

But alas we have allowed the energy of our individual personality traits to be bundled by (now sclerotic) institutions who then sell it back to us as ideology.

This will stop.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby sunny » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:11 am

justdrew wrote:
Nordic wrote:
justdrew wrote:yes. thank you. I was getting ready to pull out Bob Altmyer's The Authoritarians for the 100th time. There is no doubt the OP is spot on. It's not right/left so much as Authoritarian mentality vs everyone else.

This radical inability to even SEE YOUR ENEMY is kinda pathetic. Joe Kucklehead, if he votes republican, if he likes fox news, is indeed your enemy, and the enemy of every living thing on earth. Whether he knows it or not is wildly irrelevant. If he goes along just to get along with family, then that's tragic, but it doesn't change his choice to become the enemy. Do not hate your enemy, that's counterproductive, but you need to admit who they are when you can clearly discern them.

There isn't even a strategy of accommodation and no one has demonstrated, ever, a way around this PERENNIAL fundamental human conflict. It's the authoritarians or "us" - choose your side. Refusing to choose is still a choice.



Okay, I don't get it. I think we all realize that "they hate us", so what's the point? I think it's only the professional "leftists" like Obama who pretend that's not true. You know that whole "let's compromise because those people must have a point" nonsense.

But those people don't count, because they're frauds and liars and con artists.

I really don't see any point to the OP except to have a good, hard Five Minute Hate ourselves.

And anyone trying to manipulate me into hating someone else is not my friend.


the OP is a direct reaction to people who say such things as "let's compromise because those people must have a point" - stating the unfortunate truth is not the same as "manipulating"

History is strewn with the bodies of people who fought against the authoritarian mindset, as I said, this PERENNIAL fundamental human conflict. I for one would very much like to see it not happen again this time, because baring total collapse, failure this time is going to be it, technological supremacy will prevent any future resistance.

don't hate, but let's not forget, failure will have possibly final consequences


Ok, I get and applaud, and live by, calls not to compromise with the Authoritarian mindset but I think you're giving the op too much credit. I think you're reading good intentions between the lines that some of us can't find.

Yes, a lot of them [not all] hate us, we get it and have for a while now. The way I read it either the op is proposing we do nothing other than realize they hate us [duh] and then target the haters with vaguely threatening talk of 'putting them in their places' and 'destroying' their party [in it's current form], or he's suggesting we adopt their mindset in order to accomplish these goals. Either way he's not made himself very clear and has left himself open to interpretations he may or may not agree with.
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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby gnosticheresy_2 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:35 pm

Street politics: ‘Beating the fascists’

For two decades British anti-fascists fought a cold blooded battle for control of the streets against burgeoning far-right movements, Brian Whelan meets the authors of a controversial new book by activists who were there on the frontlines.


Just last year the BNP put forward 338 candidates for the UK parliamentary election, the biggest fielding by the far right the country had ever seen, topping the National Front’s 303 candidates in 1979.

The party gambled and lost, failing to win any seats and losing their 12 seats on Barking Council. The British left declared the BNP to have been finally defeated, decimated and no longer a threat.

However, veteran members of Anti-Fascist Action (AFA) have a different analysis, they point out that the BNP have more than tripled their vote and say things are going to get a lot worse.

Joe and Ian are veterans from AFA’s war against the far-right, meeting in a bar in their former stomping ground of Islington, North London, they say they must protect their identities for fear of reprisals to this day.

Their book Beating the Fascists has caused a huge stir in the UK; published by Freedom Press, the book pulls no punches in its accounts of the physical fight against fascism on the streets and the internal political tensions that often threatened to tear the group apart.

Over ten years in the making Beating the Fascists not only chronicles the bloody street battles and political squabbles but also points out how fascist filled a vacuum for a radical alternative that the left has failed to.

The BNP’s turn to electoralism and attempt to become, on the surface, a respectable political party, was a direct result of the remorseless violence they were met with by AFA in the early 90s, the authors claim.

They explain that the BNP’s decision to abandon their Mosleyite strategy of winning control of the streets through menace was due in no small part to AFA’s violent counter-strategy.

However, they say AFA always argued that unless the left could undermine the far-right’s political constituency in the white working class they would never be truly beaten.

“The NF, C18 and BNP all had the same Mosleyite strategy to win control of the streets and after that the wider political narrative would kick in,” Joe explains.

“That was their plan so I mean there was a flaw in that if they were met by equal or superior violence they would be left in a limbo and that’s the position they found themselves in in the mid-90s, so they stepped off”.

The book is an often disturbing read, each chapter switching from graphic details of violent operations with militaristic discipline against fascists to analysis of the political decisions they faced.

When questioned on whether they have exaggerated for bravado or omitted stories of fights lost, the authors claim that the book is true to events as they happened.

“The punches are pulled on a number of instances to be fair, it’s a proper history and the violence and subjective perspective of the participants is presented to allow people to see that anti-fascism wasn’t a non violent affair,” Joe explained.

They reveal inside accounts of events such as ‘Battle for Brick Lane’, a series of running battles spanning 1990-1993 which saw the far-right lose one of their strongholds in London’s East End.

“Initially fascists were operating in kings cross – we wiped them out and after that their paper sales in chapel market were destroyed,” author Joe explained.

“We had boundaries and there were no prisoners taken, once we set up north London - west London divide we started moving into east London knowing we could retreat back.”

“We had a safe area here in Islington, North London became a stronghold for us, it was a prototype for clearing out fascists.”

This strategy was expanded nationally and the group enjoyed varying success in Manchester, Leeds and Scotland.

“When we went to brick lane, it was very symbolic for the BNP, they had been there from 1979 and hadn’t been touched, then suddenly they had to fight for their pitch and lose.”



The book crudely details how members of the far-right were ambushed leaving their pubs, attacked with bricks on demonstrations and kept under watch in extensive files.

The Irish diaspora played a central role in this battle as republican marches and the Irish community became a prime target for attack by skinhead thugs.

“There were trips to Belfast by members but not by AFA officially, there is no denying it,” Joe confesses.

“There was support there for Irish republicanism. People visited militant republicans in Belfast and friendships developed.”

“There were also people involved who had a more hands on role in republican movement – stuff that was learned over there was used against state operations over here and gave us an edge on the streets.”

The authors say that the political climate allows no place for violent confrontation in Britain at present, but they express no remorse for their past activities.

“It had to be violent because the opponent was violent – if they’re going to use violence you can’t use non-violence against that, you’ll be battered into the ground.”

They still see the BNP as a great threat pointing out that after they “fought them to a standstill” the party adopted a more respectable electoral approach pushed by Nick Griffin.

“I don’t think there is room for fighting them anymore, if the BNP stand 800 candidates to be effective you’d have to confront all 800,” Joe added.

“Would that damage anti-fascism or improve it if someone is running for election and you’re kicking in their door and setting fire to their cars people will ask what you are standing for?”

Having spent a decade fighting the far right on the streets Joe now believes they are now more dangerous than ever, as they hold elected positions.

He explains that alongside the war stories the book explains how AFA predicted almost two decades ago that the BNP would inevitably make serious electoral breakthroughs.

Over the last ten years of producing their book they have seen their predictions and worst fears for the BNP’s success realised.

“You can keep saying they’re not a threat up until the point you’re walking into the camps,” Joe adds.

“Things will get worse but how it turns out in the end is anyone’s guess, nobody can disguise the fact that the left are completely finished now in London.”

“They are bereft of ideas and bereft of constituency. Unfortunately groups like the BNP are now the official radical opposition.”

Ian adds that they believe the BNP are currently only experiencing setbacks and to write them off as a threat is a great mistake.

“The left should understand what the BNP are trying to achieve is very difficult - trying to bring nationalism in from the cold.”

“That’s something the left has entirely failed to do with communist politics. Its not going to be overnight, they’re going to have setbacks and recover ground.”

Beating the Fascists could be two separate books, appealing to very different audiences. The first a brutally violent story bragging of hard man conquests, the other a vital political analysis of the rise of the BNP and detailed history of the groups that fought them.

Beating The Fascists: The Untold Story of Anti-Fascist Action is available now via beatingthefascists.org

http://brianwhelan.net/post/6033834484/ ... e-fascists
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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby norton ash » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:37 pm

Hey, even Jesus knew when it was time to go nose-to-nose and kick over a few tables.
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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby crikkett » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:43 pm

IT struck me that your observation, Nordic, was an excellent question to ask I Ching.


Nordic wrote: Okay, I don't get it. I think we all realize that "they hate us", so what's the point?


The answer comes in 2 parts. The first part talks about the current flux:
Hexagram Fifty-One/Line Three:
(Hexagram #51 is "thuder on thunder")
These deafening thunderclaps will roll on eastward.
If they shock you into action, though, their passing will have left a permanent change for the good.


It seems to agree with you! Recognize the thunder for what it is, let it spur you to action, or let it roll by.

I really don't see any point to the OP except to have a good, hard Five Minute Hate ourselves.
And anyone trying to manipulate me into hating someone else is not my friend.

Calling someone out on their racism is something we don't do enough of, as a culture.

The second half of the answer is what the current situation tends to if advice is followed.
I Ching wrote:11 - Eleven
T'ai / Peace

Heaven and Earth embrace, giving birth to Peace.
The Superior Person serves as midwife, presenting the newborn gift to the people.

The small depart; the great approach.
Success.
Good fortune.

SITUATION ANALYSIS:

It doesn't get any better than this.
Everything is in harmony, all obstacles are cleared from your Path, anything you could ask for is right at hand.
This is the Elysian Fields, the Garden of Eden.
The only thing wrong with Peace is that it, too, must change.
Whether you are in this state of harmony now or it is predicted for your future, recognize it as your greatest opportunity to build your resources against less harmonious times.


This seems to support eyeno:
When they give up their racism, then we can bridge our divide - maybe there won't even be one then.
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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby Sounder » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:27 pm

Hey, even Jesus knew when it was time to go nose-to-nose and kick over a few tables


Yes, yes, and thanks gnosticheresy_2 for the reminder of the early 90's Brit. scene. (It was way, way different and more benign in the US compared to how things got in GB.) The anti-fascist skater punks countered the attacks of the skinheads quite effectively. But then oddly enough, after being removed from the scene for awhile, I was told that the skater punks that came nearly right after the group I loosely hung out with, were adopting racist pretenses, go figure.

Of course, when directly threatened, a direct response is appropriate.

In fact, and don't tell anyone about this, but my own best ploy is to allow folk to think that I may be crazy. This works for the biggest most badass (intellectual) bullies because the fact is most people don't really want to get their nose bloodied.

There is a time for every season and this is an invitation for allegorical violence only.
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Re: a little reminder... on differences...

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:36 pm

Searcher08 wrote:I felt very uncomfortable reading your response to eyeno.
A longstanding forum member has expressed that they don't feel safe and feel threatened - and you approach is to belittle and mock???? Sure this place gets feisty, and I include myself in that, but IMHO there is a red line around intimidation. You have no idea what colour eyeno is; you have no idea whether he/she has been affected by racism and your assertions that you do have no basis in sensory reality.


Since you have chosen to put legs on a baseless and clearly opportunistic allegation by a longstanding nuisance to this forum, I hereby alert on myself to the moderation team. Certainly if I am making threats to longstanding members I need to be disciplined, and if not, someone else should be for defaming me.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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