Democracy Is Direct

[jakell]

American Dream knows what they stand for and what approach to take.

The rest of you arguing with him keep identifying cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy to object to, etc.

But since it's not usually clear what your positions are instead, American Dream "wins". Jakell, however clever and wearing your jabbing at them might be, you are only making AD look better (which I don't welcome.)

It's like a student huffing and puffing asking a professor questions who is only there to lecture, not to interact with anybody else.

Wombat's responses to AD are good because he seems to not define his interventions as being "against" AD but instead "about" his own concerns...

It's awfully easy for AD to paint you all with their strawman labels like "anti-imperialism of fools" given the way you are interacting with he/she/it/them...

A famous self-ID'ed anarchist (Katie Nelson) in my area has explained how the ideology had never posed any problems or contradictions for her. I think it should be obvious why this presents an extreme case of fundamentalism and the refusal of discourse with any "others", a complete persistence in an insular dogma literally defined by nihilism (in the etymology of "anarchism" to begin with.)

Good luck, riggies...

Oh and CrimeThinc is deeply silly.

I dunno. I reckon I go fairly easy on AD and don't see any point in being confrontational (which seems to be what you're suggesting)

I'm not that concerned how he 'looks' though, I think that's something that has little to do with how he is responded to. Here's something that may show why I respond though... Having lurked on forums that I'm not a member of, I imagine how I would respond to certain posts, certainly I like to see a response, it's the first essential step in dialogue, even if that dialogue doesn't continue.
So, when I'm actually a member, I sometimes try to put myself in the shoes of a lurker and ask myself "what would I like to see?". The non-responsive professor situation can also be understood by using a third person perspective.

[tapitsbo]

why the need to debate AD at all? you could be posting your own articles, ideas, etc.

AD obviously doesn't care about the consistency of their ideas in terms of other people's objections to them - they have their story and they're sticking to it

You guys just keep pointing out AD is wrong, but it's less clear what you all believe in.

I think it's obvious what's wrong with (most) of what AD posts. Why not just have a discussion talking past them? It's not like anybody doesn't know at this point that very few people are down with AD's "platform" and lots disagree with it violently.

But part of me thinks AD will still be trolling and you guys will still be hating when Kanye is president...

[jakell]

It's not really debate, but offering the possibility of it, which is probably the next best thing.

Why AD? Well for better or worse (and folks will be very loathe to admit this) he's become pretty central to RI, and both deliberate avoidance and engagement can be two sides of the same coin. Personally though, he dwells on topics that are close to my heart and that I'm familiar with.

Really though... 'hating', do I sound that way? That is one of the options, but I think my 'middle' way is better.

[Nordic]

I hate to admit this, but I spend far more time now on Facebook than here.

For better or for worse, Facebook has turned into a far more diverse, dynamic collection of info-sharers than this place.

Which is fucked up.

This is based on my own FB experience, wherein I've customized my feed so most of what I read isn't from meat-space "friends" but from people I've never met. Bloggers and journalists from all around the world ....

Including Jeff Wells.

I still love to come here but it's a little dismaying to see things here are not really keeping up. I mean, the Syria thread (whichever that one even is) should be in constant turnover.

I'm as guilty as anyone of not putting my time on here. When I'm busy I simply can't. And I've been super busy between work and family obligations and trying to take care of myself both mentally and physically.

We could use some fresh blood here! How to get it .... I've thought about posting links to here in the Reddit conspiracy forum, but there are large strains of unsavory types there .... I really don't know.

[tapitsbo]

AD is almost never going to respond to objections (this is not technically what they mean by "no platform" but there's an analogy buried in there somewhere.)

Engaging with them means they win by default. For now they need to be "no platformed" back.

Of course, given a change in the cultural climate the likes of AD might become very open to the possibility of dialogue and engagement. That moment has not yet come.

[Nordic]

If we put the energy that is going into this stupid bitchy meta-thread into actual threads that matter (Syria, Ukraine, the imminent failure of Deutsche Bank, propaganda, etc), there would be less to complain about here.

What a waste of time threads like this become.

[jakell]

I hate to admit this, but I spend far more time now on Facebook than here.

For better or for worse, Facebook has turned into a far more diverse, dynamic collection of info-sharers than this place.

Which is fucked up.

This is based on my own FB experience, wherein I've customized my feed so most of what I read isn't from meat-space "friends" but from people I've never met. Bloggers and journalists from all around the world ....

Including Jeff Wells.

I still love to come here but it's a little dismaying to see things here are not really keeping up. I mean, the Syria thread (whichever that one even is) should be in constant turnover.

I'm as guilty as anyone of not putting my time on here. When I'm busy I simply can't. And I've been super busy between work and family obligations and trying to take care of myself both mentally and physically.

We could use some fresh blood here! How to get it .... I've thought about posting links to here in the Reddit conspiracy forum, but there are large strains of unsavory types there .... I really don't know.

One of the reasons I post with lurkers in mind. Possibly there's absolutely no-one there, so I sometimes imagine I'm the lurker and think about what attracts folks and what makes folks move on.
Decent forums are closing all the time and folks go looking for a new one, so I'm sure there are people hovering in the background from time to time.

'Advertising' is an interesting idea, but really, is it possible to convey an accurate impression? I did talk specifically of new members earlier

[tapitsbo]

Meta-bitching makes an immense difference to the lens we can see important subjects through.

Nordic, how would you respond if somebody called Bashar Al-Assad a "genocidal maniac"?

There would be some truth to the stament, but likely a lot to contend with in terms of the conclusions they possibly would be trying to draw from this.

Tough to know how to respond without meta-bitching.

[Luther Blissett]

I hate to admit this, but I spend far more time now on Facebook than here.

For better or for worse, Facebook has turned into a far more diverse, dynamic collection of info-sharers than this place.

Which is fucked up.

This is based on my own FB experience, wherein I've customized my feed so most of what I read isn't from meat-space "friends" but from people I've never met. Bloggers and journalists from all around the world ....

Including Jeff Wells.

I still love to come here but it's a little dismaying to see things here are not really keeping up. I mean, the Syria thread (whichever that one even is) should be in constant turnover.

I'm as guilty as anyone of not putting my time on here. When I'm busy I simply can't. And I've been super busy between work and family obligations and trying to take care of myself both mentally and physically.

We could use some fresh blood here! How to get it .... I've thought about posting links to here in the Reddit conspiracy forum, but there are large strains of unsavory types there .... I really don't know.

Honestly, I was brought here because it kept coming up in my niche term queries over and over again and was clear that it lacked the unsavory types that you mention as compared to wherever else on the internet (/r/conspiracy is a prime contemporary example). At the time I was reading a lot of Above Top Secret and pretty much hating every moment of it. Maybe we should find those types.

[jakell]

I hate to admit this, but I spend far more time now on Facebook than here.

For better or for worse, Facebook has turned into a far more diverse, dynamic collection of info-sharers than this place.

Which is fucked up.

This is based on my own FB experience, wherein I've customized my feed so most of what I read isn't from meat-space "friends" but from people I've never met. Bloggers and journalists from all around the world ....

Including Jeff Wells.

I still love to come here but it's a little dismaying to see things here are not really keeping up. I mean, the Syria thread (whichever that one even is) should be in constant turnover.

I'm as guilty as anyone of not putting my time on here. When I'm busy I simply can't. And I've been super busy between work and family obligations and trying to take care of myself both mentally and physically.

We could use some fresh blood here! How to get it .... I've thought about posting links to here in the Reddit conspiracy forum, but there are large strains of unsavory types there .... I really don't know.

Honestly, I was brought here because it kept coming up in my niche term queries over and over again and was clear that it lacked the unsavory types that you mention as compared to wherever else on the internet (/r/conspiracy is a prime contemporary example). At the time I was reading a lot of Above Top Secret and pretty much hating every moment of it. Maybe we should find those types.

I don't really get why people feel so hugely allergic to 'unsavoury types' (whatever they may be). I mean, this is the internet, no harm will come. Is RI supposed to be sacred ground or something?

I know there's been talk of certain ideas being some sort of 'mind virus' but I'm sure that was hyperbole.

[American Dream]

[mp3][/mp3]

I don't really get why people feel so hugely allergic to 'unsavoury types' (whatever they may be). I mean, this is the internet, no harm will come.

--HOW ARE RACISTS RESPONDING TO THE CHURCH SHOOTING AND CONFEDERATE FLAG CONTROVERSY?


See also: #4thPrecinctShutown in Minneapolis attacked by racist trolls






Know your history:

[jakell]

So. Do you think RIers may turn into spree killers and develop racist tendencies by reading stuff. Maybe the 'mind virus' concept is alive after all.

I'm imagining that your idea of 'unsavoury types' is pretty mild, going by suspicion you have directed at others here.

[Luther Blissett]

I hate to admit this, but I spend far more time now on Facebook than here.

For better or for worse, Facebook has turned into a far more diverse, dynamic collection of info-sharers than this place.

Which is fucked up.

This is based on my own FB experience, wherein I've customized my feed so most of what I read isn't from meat-space "friends" but from people I've never met. Bloggers and journalists from all around the world ....

Including Jeff Wells.

I still love to come here but it's a little dismaying to see things here are not really keeping up. I mean, the Syria thread (whichever that one even is) should be in constant turnover.

I'm as guilty as anyone of not putting my time on here. When I'm busy I simply can't. And I've been super busy between work and family obligations and trying to take care of myself both mentally and physically.

We could use some fresh blood here! How to get it .... I've thought about posting links to here in the Reddit conspiracy forum, but there are large strains of unsavory types there .... I really don't know.

Honestly, I was brought here because it kept coming up in my niche term queries over and over again and was clear that it lacked the unsavory types that you mention as compared to wherever else on the internet (/r/conspiracy is a prime contemporary example). At the time I was reading a lot of Above Top Secret and pretty much hating every moment of it. Maybe we should find those types.

I don't really get why people feel so hugely allergic to 'unsavoury types' (whatever they may be). I mean, this is the internet, no harm will come. Is RI supposed to be sacred ground or something?

I know there's been talk of certain ideas being some sort of 'mind virus' but I'm sure that was hyperbole.

I can't find any other place on the internet where the conversation surrounding some pet interests of mine (the crimes of mid-to-late 20th century U.S. intelligence, organized abuse, ufology, high weirdness, deep futurism, etc.) is not driven and dominated by, at the very least, anti-semites. I've tried to work within communities like this, and if my mission is not conversion (not unlike your guidelines for steering discourse in fascist spaces online), then it quickly becomes impossible to really uncover anything. And we have made a few modest discoveries as a community here by working together. Those few small moments keep me motivated for more and I think others might feel the same. This place was at one time sort of built around solving "mysteries," like a deep state, deep history version of websleuths.

I was only an observer here during the time that Theresa Duncan was alive and writing about this place and in the short time after her and Jeremy's death that people were really trying to discover exactly what happened. That saga would be one of the better examples of what I'm talking about.

To overlay debating "unsavory" types on top of that would be…okay I guess, it's just not really preferred if I'm trying to figure out what was up with, like, Susurluk or something like that. Doing so is a form of anti-fascism even if the tough antifa guys in my neighborhood don't see it as such.

I have other places I can go to discuss other favorite topics: the environment, equality, organizing and activism; and other places I can go to try to "go undercover" or debate, proselytize, and advocate. If the global warming or gender threads are any indication, I obviously don't have a problem with either activity here. I'm not as tender with this website as others but I'm fully optimistic that some good work might be done here one of these days - some tangible, positive discovery.

[jakell]

I hate to admit this, but I spend far more time now on Facebook than here.

For better or for worse, Facebook has turned into a far more diverse, dynamic collection of info-sharers than this place.

Which is fucked up.

This is based on my own FB experience, wherein I've customized my feed so most of what I read isn't from meat-space "friends" but from people I've never met. Bloggers and journalists from all around the world ....

Including Jeff Wells.

I still love to come here but it's a little dismaying to see things here are not really keeping up. I mean, the Syria thread (whichever that one even is) should be in constant turnover.

I'm as guilty as anyone of not putting my time on here. When I'm busy I simply can't. And I've been super busy between work and family obligations and trying to take care of myself both mentally and physically.

We could use some fresh blood here! How to get it .... I've thought about posting links to here in the Reddit conspiracy forum, but there are large strains of unsavory types there .... I really don't know.

Honestly, I was brought here because it kept coming up in my niche term queries over and over again and was clear that it lacked the unsavory types that you mention as compared to wherever else on the internet (/r/conspiracy is a prime contemporary example). At the time I was reading a lot of Above Top Secret and pretty much hating every moment of it. Maybe we should find those types.

I don't really get why people feel so hugely allergic to 'unsavoury types' (whatever they may be). I mean, this is the internet, no harm will come. Is RI supposed to be sacred ground or something?

I know there's been talk of certain ideas being some sort of 'mind virus' but I'm sure that was hyperbole.

I can't find any other place on the internet where the conversation surrounding some pet interests of mine (the crimes of mid-to-late 20th century U.S. intelligence, organized abuse, ufology, high weirdness, deep futurism, etc.) is not driven and dominated by, at the very least, anti-semites. I've tried to work within communities like this, and if my mission is not conversion (not unlike your guidelines for steering discourse in fascist spaces online), then it quickly becomes impossible to really uncover anything. And we have made a few modest discoveries as a community here by working together. Those few small moments keep me motivated for more and I think others might feel the same. This place was at one time sort of built around solving "mysteries," like a deep state, deep history version of websleuths.

I was only an observer here during the time that Theresa Duncan was alive and writing about this place and in the short time after her and Jeremy's death that people were really trying to discover exactly what happened. That saga would be one of the better examples of what I'm talking about.

To overlay debating "unsavory" types on top of that would be…okay I guess, it's just not really preferred if I'm trying to figure out what was up with, like, Susurluk or something like that. Doing so is a form of anti-fascism even if the tough antifa guys in my neighborhood don't see it as such.

I have other places I can go to discuss other favorite topics: the environment, equality, organizing and activism; and other places I can go to try to "go undercover" or debate, proselytize, and advocate. If the global warming or gender threads are any indication, I obviously don't have a problem with either activity here. I'm not as tender with this website as others but I'm fully optimistic that some good work might be done here one of these days - some tangible, positive discovery.

On my last forum we had a discussion about online activism, trying to achieve certain goals and forming specific communities. We sort of concluded that the internet is in too much flux to make these sorts of direct analogues with real life activities, of course they are still possible in a reduced fashion. A lot of people seem to overlook the fact that the internet is pretty young, and the existence of useful forums and communities is younger still, also, that 'golden age' of forums seems to be fading in the face of social media and casual internet usage, ie that 'flux' again.

I don't think there's much chance of any 'unsavoury types' landing here, so the question is rather academic, attracting regular folks seems to be hard enough.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Myriad Ops in Tandem????

That is sooo pervasive. When I looked before it was seven threads on the front page. That leaves 43 threads you can read and interact with without having to see any of Ads copypasta.

I object to the REPEATED casting of aspersions, as if there's a brooding/burgeoning pro-nazi contingent attempting to infiltrate this board. NOTHING can be farther from the truth. It comes off as paranoid at best, and makes me wonder if it's simply a pathology or part of an effort to create friction in this board.

I think you'll find that is exactly what has happened repeatedly over the years. Whether its still happening is another question but you can't blame some people, Ad being one, for being paranoid given some of the things that have happened. But i think a big part of ADs point is there is a burgeoning pro-nazi contingent that are alot further along in their attempts to infiltrate society than when he (or she i forget) joined the site. And if he's like me he sees elements of it mirrored here.

Once upon a time some of the people at this site would have found all sorts of links between the people AD posts about on some thread (especially the Masculinity and the Far Right one,) and the MPII Complex (or whatever it is these days) by now. These days it the same Pavlovian response.

"Elements of a pro-nazi contingent" is "mirrored here"??

Please provide examples of this, as this is news to me.
‎

Perhaps there may be a burgeoning movement of "far right" elements in the U.S., and it shouldn't be too surprising given the trends we've observed becoming more prominent over the last 15-20 yrs.
The middle class is vanishing. Many formerly middle-class whites are feeling increasingly threatened --- those that aren't drowning in alcohol or taking their own lives.

It's an INEVITABLE result of trends that have been discussed in this forum over the years.

Tell me: how does "copypasta" attempt to 'tackle' such trends? Copypasta in a forum of largely left/middle-thinkers, no less?
Raise Awareness, perhaps? Will that help TEMPER this SWELL?
Not among this crowd.

In any event, none of those trends EXCUSE the casting of BASELESS aspersions.

If there are legitimate concerns, send a PM to the Mod about it.

Just cos you're not a Nazi doesn't mean other people who constantly whinge about how sick they are of hearing about the ongoing racism in the world aren't.

And just because someone is whinging like child about how hard it is to be white, straight and a man these days - that doesn't make them a nazi but it does mean they are, willingly or not, pushing the same points neo-nazis do. but if someone says something dodgy in a public forum are they sposed to be immune from criticism?

As for AD. if you don't like it don't read it. there is plenty of other stuff to engage with.

if you feel he is casting aspersion at you specifically perhaps you need to ask yourself why.