Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

[coffin_dodger]

"I don't think those people are capable of rationalizing," he said. "I think they've switched their brains to where if you have a different opinion of them, you're a Nazi. I hate Nazis, too, but who determines what's a Nazi?..."

We have one of our own 'Determiners', right here at RI. They are not employed by The State, but they continue their divine work with a fervour that would put an employee to shame. They're the ones who use insinuation as a means to smear, then silence. It's been very effective - so much so, that it has bled from screen to reality, infecting the minds of millions. The sowing of hatred is about to bear fruit - who will be the first hero to kill a nazi, I wonder? His heart will swell with pride.

[brekin]

Why WSOF fighter Jake Shields stepped between a mob and a Trump supporter
WSOF welterweight Jake Shields said he couldn't stand by as masked men beat a Donald Trump supporter during Wednesday's protests at the University of California, Berkeley.
"That's when I had to intervene, because no one is helping the guy, including the police," Shields told MMAjunkie.
...
"I went to try to get police assistance, and they said they wouldn't go in there," he said. "People were getting attacked and beat up."
Shields, 38, had just finished dinner with his girlfriend in the school's vicinity when he saw a man, wearing a Trump hat and "covered in blood," being chased through the streets.
"There were hundreds of them around, with weapons, so I was trying to diffuse the situation with the least amount of effort possible," he said. "Generally, when you throw a punch, guys back off."
...
"I stood around and tried to stop some other people from getting beat, and it just kept getting more and more chaotic, so eventually I left," he said. "There were just too many people and too many weapons, so it was time for me to get out of there. I tried to get the police to do their job, but they weren't willing to."
...
"I don't think those people are capable of rationalizing," he said. "I think they've switched their brains to where if you have a different opinion of them, you're a Nazi. I hate Nazis, too, but who determines what's a Nazi?

"There were hundreds of people cheering on, 'Get the Nazi,' and I went up and started arguing with them. Why's this guy a Nazi? What did he say to make him a Nazi? No one could say."Shields said he was influenced by his late father Jack Shields' civic activism during anti-war protests in San Francisco in the 1960s, and what he saw bore no resemblance to that ideal."I think both sides on the right and left have gone crazy," the fighter said. "I think the left has gone more crazy because they're saying the right is so crazy, but they're the ones stirring up all this chaos."
Although Shields makes a living with his fists, he said dissent should never involve violence.
"You need to have a conversation with people," he said. "Maybe instead of attacking Milo, they should have went in and debated him and say why they don't agree with his issues. Most people want the same thing. They want America to be a better place; they just have slightly different ideas on how it needs to be done."

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mma/why ... ailsignout

That's a nice story. I'm just wary of anything MMA/WWE related and Trump.
That is his milieu, demographic and he's been instrumental in helping the sport and individuals in the sport.
See the kayfabe RI thread and stories like below.
I'm sure other well meaning, MMA fighters, will just happen to be strolling by Alt-Right events on liberal colleges to rescue people from persecution.
Maybe they will even start providing security and counter demonstrations because they are so civic minded and of course the police (law and order) are useless.
Look for their b̶r̶o̶w̶n̶,̶ ̶b̶l̶a̶c̶k̶,̶ ̶ er, Tap Out shirts.

Porn, Pain and Donald Trump: The Rebirth of Mixed Martial Arts Legend Tito Ortiz
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2688 ... tito-ortiz

...
Holdouts became a regular part of doing business, and an appearance on Donald Trump's Celebrity Apprentice made Ortiz more confident than ever that he was doing things the right way. Ortiz spent weeks picking Trump's brain and left convinced that his personal brand was the most valuable thing he owned.


The Trumps were in attendance for Ortiz's fight with Machida in 2008.Eric Jamison/Associated Press

"I spent the entire time asking him questions," Ortiz said. "I asked him how he became a billionaire, and he said, 'Tito, you never stop working. From the moment I get up to the moment I go to bed at night, I work. And when I sleep, which isn't that much, I have people working for me.' He told me that if I wanted to make it big, I had to treat my name like it was a business."
...

Trump & Co. are probably building the foundation of a alt right militia of MMA muscleheads to supplement the web warriors.
You know kind of like Putin did in Russia and Ukraine.

How an MMA promotion harboured an anti-Maidan militia in Ukraine
Karim Zidan delves into the OPLOT MMA promotion that harboured a deadly militia in Ukraine.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2016/7/12/12 ... litics-ufc

A right-wing militia trains Russians to fight the next war — with or without Putin
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... b0fc6b67dc

Putin’s Troubled Alliance: Kadyrov, Fedor, and child fights in Chechnya
Karim Zidan delves into the recent child MMA scandal in Russia which has encompassed Chechen dictator Ramzan Kadyrov and heavyweight legend Fedor Emelianenko.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2016/10/7/13 ... ma-scandal

[DrEvil]

"I don't think those people are capable of rationalizing," he said. "I think they've switched their brains to where if you have a different opinion of them, you're a Nazi. I hate Nazis, too, but who determines what's a Nazi?..."

We have one of our own 'Determiners', right here at RI. They are not employed by The State, but they continue their divine work with a fervour that would put an employee to shame. They're the ones who use insinuation as a means to smear, then silence. It's been very effective - so much so, that it has bled from screen to reality, infecting the minds of millions. The sowing of hatred is about to bear fruit - who will be the first hero to kill a nazi, I wonder? His heart will swell with pride.

Last time actual Nazis got into power they started a world war and industrialized the process of exterminating people, and the rest of the world ended up having to kill a shitload of them. The people involved in that are still called "The greatest generation" and lauded as heroes.

There's a reason Nazis are everyone's favorite hate object, and it's not because they're misunderstood. Their ideology is as close as you can get to straight up evil. Fighting that with any means necessary is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

They shouldn't be shown respect or given a fair hearing, they should be marginalized, ridiculed, ostracized and if necessary forcibly removed from power, because if they do get into power they will be more than happy to crush any and all dissent, and we're already seeing the first steps being taken in the US.

You can't fight someone within the rules when your opponents gleefully ignore those very same rules and their goal is to destroy them and replace them with something far worse.

Tl;dr: It's always OK to punch a Nazi.

[coffin_dodger]

Drivel said:

There's a reason Nazis are everyone's favorite hate object, and it's not because they're misunderstood. Their ideology is as close as you can get to straight up evil. Fighting that with any means necessary is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Yes - shame there's no actual Nazis left in existence. But it's very handy for people like you to brand anyone who disagrees with you as one of those, along with all the negative connotations that brings with it. Your usual reposte of "stoopid, stoopid, stoopid" just doesn't cut it any more, huh?
Which conveniently allows you to state the following:

Tl;dr: It's always OK to punch a Nazi.

Your fantasy/fetish for violent confrontation doesn't interest me.

[Heaven Swan]

Protests, pepper spray, arrests at NYU as conservative speaker stops by

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/02/03/pl ... rance.html

At this link is a video from the protest at NYU. Thursday night where 11 people were arrested.
It's the second video tagged Liberals Have Complete Meltdown. I wasn't at the protest but watched most of the video (it's quite long). The title is typical Fox News i.e. highly misleading since nothing much seems to be happening, just protesters standing around then the cops playing a loop of a recording saying that protesters are blocking the pedestrian walkway and will be arrested if they don't disperse. Absolutely nothing like what happened at Berkeley.



I've seen a few clips of the San Francisco Milo fiasco. If Luther is reading this I'd be interested to know if you think the masked platoon were bonafide Black Bloc or paid paramilitary provocateurs. This is the first time I've heard of protesters using pepper spray. Has this become a tactic?

If Trump brought a paid cheering section to laugh at his jokes to the CIA, his crew could certainly swing a group of masked troublemakers. On the other hand hot-headed macho leftists have been known to do lots of dumb things. Who were these people? Have any more facts surfaced?

[DrEvil]

Drivel said:

There's a reason Nazis are everyone's favorite hate object, and it's not because they're misunderstood. Their ideology is as close as you can get to straight up evil. Fighting that with any means necessary is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Yes - shame there's no actual Nazis left in existence. But it's very handy for people like you to brand anyone who disagrees with you as one of those, along with all the negative connotations that brings with it. Your usual reposte of "stoopid, stoopid, stoopid" just doesn't cut it any more, huh?
Which conveniently allows you to state the following:

Tl;dr: It's always OK to punch a Nazi.

Your fantasy/fetish for violent confrontation doesn't interest me.

Uh, what rock are you living under? There are actual Nazis, like, oh I don't know, the American Nazi Party, or Anders Breivik and his legions of fans, or Golden Dawn, or the Klan, or any number of groups adoring Hitler and pining for the Reich to come back.

I don't think Milo is a Nazi, he's a professional troll and harasser of women, and clearly in need of a safe space, the poor thing.

But, I was responding specifically to your bullshit hand wringing about people being so mean to Nazis (I mean the real deal ideologues, and I include Bannon and Spencer in that category, equivalent to ca. 1930 Nazis in Germany).

Fuck that. Everyone should be mean to them all the time everywhere they go. We know what their views and politics are, there's no point in hearing them out, their ideology is fucked up and leads to dead people and children crying. They're scum and should be treated as such.

Going all Chamberlain on them doesn't fucking work, but by all means, keep apologizing for them.

[fruhmenschen]

https://www.whosarat.com/

[8bitagent]

And Trump's more than ready to clamp down on dissent and he's being cheered on to bring 'change we can believe' in by the poorly staffed police who, because they're so ill equipped, fear for their lives while facing down these unruly crowds.


I certainly can't imagine Trump's response to a true terrorist attack and what consequences that would bring to our civil liberties. I doubt there's ever been a President more ready to mow down dissenters.

Sadly we'll be finding out sooner than later. This is a new administration who would exploit the heck out of a "jihadist" shooting up a 7-11 gas station with things that would make Dick Cheney pen a horrified op ed piece in Mother Jones
in protest. This era we're in is the culmination of everything imagined and learned. Expect the shocking, weird and mindblowing every week

[SonicG]

"This era we're in is the culmination of everything imagined and learned. " - 8bitagent

Yeah, right? Excused the meta thread disrailment but I can viscerally feel this melding of barriers between the spectacle and real life that Trump represents. I mean the guy came from professional wrestling...I haven't even spent 5 minutes on Milo because I think my head might explode at the confluence between the image projected on the cave wall instantly becoming the reality, in the worst ways...
But with the apparent internecine intelligence agency wars, with Customs, DEA, FBI...god knows what the Secret Service is up to...Is it all Colombian coke and hookers for them with no repercussions...It really seems like some demented Gilbert Shelton underground comix (Wonder Warthog anyone?)



I mean, yeh, it feels like a spinning top, or more like a powerful twister, where will it touch ground to wreak havoc next?
Interesting times...Chinese curse....etc.

[Luther Blissett]

Protests, pepper spray, arrests at NYU as conservative speaker stops by

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/02/03/pl ... rance.html

At this link is a video from the protest at NYU. Thursday night where 11 people were arrested.
It's the second video tagged Liberals Have Complete Meltdown. I wasn't at the protest but watched most of the video (it's quite long). The title is typical Fox News i.e. highly misleading since nothing much seems to be happening, just protesters standing around then the cops playing a loop of a recording saying that protesters are blocking the pedestrian walkway and will be arrested if they don't disperse. Absolutely nothing like what happened at Berkeley.



I've seen a few clips of the San Francisco Milo fiasco. If Luther is reading this I'd be interested to know if you think the masked platoon were bonafide Black Bloc or paid paramilitary provocateurs. This is the first time I've heard of protesters using pepper spray. Has this become a tactic?

If Trump brought a paid cheering section to laugh at his jokes to the CIA, his crew could certainly swing a group of masked troublemakers. On the other hand hot-headed macho leftists have been known to do lots of dumb things. Who were these people? Have any more facts surfaced?

Obviously I don't know / can't tell, but my money would be on law enforcement infiltrators. Pepper spray has definitely not become a tactic in any circles I travel in.

In Berkeley, I also sort of think that was just a can of aerosol spray.

Responding to comments elsewhere on this thread: fascism is an identifiable, roughly quantifiable, and definable ideology.

[coffin_dodger]

Luther:

Responding to comments elsewhere on this thread: fascism is an identifiable, roughly quantifiable, and definable ideology.

I would be grateful if you could define Fascism for me, please. I spent a few years studying the rise of Fascism and Nazism and would be interested in your definition.

[seemslikeadream]

most intelligent folks know it when they smell it...no real need for an definition ..when you're looking for a definition it's a bit too late

I would think if you have to spend years trying to figure it out you've had the luxury of not having to live under it

[RocketMan]

Naomi Wolf on FB:

I always always say this. Whenever you see an allegedly left wing group of protesters who wear black, cover their faces, have a branded name (antifas) and smash things up efficiently, ask a LOT of questions. The left just isn't that disciplined or efficient and time after time such violent groups are unmasked as provocateurs.

regarding this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... annopoulos

Anti-fascist activists take on Trump and the far right: 'Resistance is our only shot'

And here's WSWS:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/0 ... r-f04.html

Why is the New York Times promoting the “black bloc”?

The New York Times, the semi-official voice of the Democratic Party establishment, published an extraordinary article in its Friday edition headlined “Anarchists Vow to Halt Far Right’s Rise, With Violence if Needed.”

The piece, which ran across four columns of the newspaper’s front page under a huge photo of a black-masked individual preparing to break an office building window with an iron bar during Wednesday night’s protests at the University of California, Berkeley, amounted to free publicity and promotion of the violent protests organized by elements identifying themselves as the “black bloc,” anti-fascists and anarchists.

Authored by Times reporter Farah Stockman, the article consists not only of breathless accounts of gratuitous acts of violence by these elements and extended quotes from individuals claiming to represent their politics, but also multiple links to anarchist and black bloc websites and twitter feeds, helpfully provided for any reader who might want to get involved.

...

There has been a long experience with the violence of the so-called “black bloc,” anarchist and ANTIFA protesters, not only in the United States, but in Europe and around the world. The politics of these movements are thoroughly reactionary, based upon a visceral hostility to any struggle to mobilize the working class and youth in an independent political struggle against the capitalist system and for socialism. They attract demoralized and disoriented elements from the middle class, along with a sizable number of police provocateurs who hide behind hoods and masks and egg on the violence to provide an excuse for repression.

[coffin_dodger]

slad:

most intelligent folks know it when they smell it...no real need for an definition...

I had thought as much. No need for a definition, just the ability to use ad hominem against anyone who questions or disagrees.
Nice little 'stoopid, stoopid, stoopid' jibe at the start, to boot. Old habits die hard.
Thanks for the enlightening conversation - RI's new stylee writ large.

[seemslikeadream]

everyone posting here knows exactly what fascism is ...what's there to discuss?

that "old" habit BTW only started when you decided to show me who you really are