The 2012 "Election" thread

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby justdrew » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:51 pm

Luther Blissett wrote:
Luther Blissett wrote:My very Democratic girlfriend's voter registration appears to have been purged from the rolls here, even after voting in the last two elections in the same district at the same address.


ON EDIT: We're now up to my girlfriend, her sister, her female boss, and our friend Laura. All registered democrats in Pennsylvania, all women, all purged from the voter rolls, all will have to vote provisionally tomorrow. Does anyone else know any women in Pennsylvania who do not show up "active" here:

https://www.pavoterservices.state.pa.us ... tatus.aspx


absolutely incredible. How can they possibly think they can get away with this shit?
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby NeonLX » Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:03 pm

Hate to say it, but they've gotten away with it for several election cycles now, Brad Friedman, Greg Palast, and the rest notwithstanding...
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby 8bitagent » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:01 pm

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby justdrew » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:26 pm

dude. That pic is such a shallow view. There are significant more differences than coke v pepsi.

yah, obama isn't going to suddenly change america into a different country. but defeating the republican party, and standing with all the others who oppose their maniacal worldview is essential.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby whipstitch » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:32 pm

Really appreciating the intelligent level of discourse (for the most part) on this thread. It's really helped to stem the waves of nausea I get every time I glance at my facebook newfeed. [shudder]

Personally, I'm voting for "blank" (ie none of the above) as I don't even want to validate this sham of an presidential election by participating in it.

On a related note, I was heartened by this article I've linked below. Scary how many people on FB basically agreed with this statement although they would never state it so bluntly...

"I wouldn't care if Obama turned out to be a serial child molester -- I'd still vote for him if Romney had molested or might molest even more children."


MONDAY, NOVEMBER 05, 2012

You Can Vote For Anyone You Like. As Long As It's The Duopoly
Okay, a few last thoughts before the duopoly wins its next election tomorrow.

I supported Obama and voted for him in 2008. His rhetoric and specific promises were inspiring. But he's betrayed so much of that rhetoric, and so many of those promises, that I think it would be a mistake to reward him with a second term. I'm not talking about being disappointed with a president who fails to fulfill his lofty promises, or who tries but fails to implement various changes because of an obstructionist Congressional opposition (the usual excuses trotted out for what isn't really the problem). I'm talking about being outraged at a president who has in numerous key areas done the extreme opposite of what he promised. Who promised a reversal of the Bush-era extremism and instead has deliberately entrenched and extended it.

Maybe, on balance, some of it I could live with, in exchange for other things. But Obama has gone too far. I simply cannot vote for a president who claims the power to have American citizens executed without due process. It's not a question of lesser evils, of the other candidate being even worse. I just can't imagine a more un-American, more unconstitutional, more tyrannical power than the power to have citizens executed without due process. The power to have people imprisoned forever without charge, trial, or conviction would be up there, I guess, but of course Obama claims that, too.

So this unconstitutional assassination power is, for me, a political deal breaker. I think Conor Friedersdorf made a compelling case for the "deal breaker" argument in the following Atlantic articles.

"Why I Refuse to Vote for Barack Obama"
"The Responses to 'Why I Refuse to Vote for Barack Obama'"

And don't worry, Friedersdorf has equally compelling reasons for "Why I Refuse to Vote for Mitt Romney."

Let's talk about concept of a political deal breaker for a moment. It's not necessarily easy to understand if you're wedded to the "lesser of two evils" rubric by which most people vote. So let me try a few hypotheticals:

"I wouldn't care if Obama himself ordered the mass waterboarding of terror suspects -- I'd still vote for him if I thought Romney would order the waterboarding of even more."

"I wouldn't care if I were certain Obama would unilaterally order a nuclear attack on Tehran -- I'd still vote for him if I thought Romney would unilaterally order a nuclear attack on Tehran and Damascus, too."

"I wouldn't care if Obama publicly promised to appoint nothing but hardcore pro-life Justices in the hope of overturning Roe v Wade -- I'd still vote for him over Romney because Romney is worse overall."

"I wouldn't care if Obama publicly promised to eliminate social security, repeal Medicare and Medicaid, and make homosexuality illegal -- I'd still vote for him if Romney seemed marginally worse on these issues and/or worse overall."

"I wouldn't care if Obama turned out to be a serial child molester -- I'd still vote for him if Romney had molested or might molest even more children."

If you're comfortable with the statements above, you might have a hard time understanding how anyone could have a political deal breaker -- a line which, if a politician crosses it, makes it impossible to vote for that politician no matter what. But if you can't agree with one or more of the statements above, then even if your own potential deal breakers are different, maybe you can understand why some liberals have decided they just can't vote for Obama, even though yes, Romney would likely be worse.

Now, you can argue that the power to have citizens executed is being used rarely and judiciously. But that just means you're okay with the president assuming tyrannical powers as long as he uses them only rarely and judiciously. And that's just crazy. Not least because, if Romney wins on Tuesday, those powers will be his, and what are you going to do at that point, argue that Democrats you like have the power to assassinate American citizens but Republicans you don't like don't?

And for anyone inclined to parrot Eric Holder's infamous argument that "due process," as required by the Fifth Amendment before the government can lawfully deprive someone of "life, liberty, and property," doesn't mean "judicial due process," I think Stephen Colbert has put that claim permanently to rest.


The Colbert Report
Get More: Colbert Report Full Episodes,Political Humor & Satire Blog,Video Archive


I know it seems peculiar to a lot of people, but I just can't vote for a president who claims -- and who has exercised -- what strikes me as the ultimate tyrannical power, just because he seems like a nice fellow and after all, has only used that power a few times, and always only against brown people anyway. I can't. It's too much. There has to be a line, and if it's not "The president can order citizens killed if he thinks they need killing," I don't know what it is.

Judging from experience, I'm guessing most of the comments I get in response to this post will be of the "But then you're supporting Romney!" variety. A few thoughts about that.

First, have a look at these Obama endorsements from The New York Times and The New Yorker. Not only do they distort what Obama did in Iraq (he didn't keep "his" promise to get America out; he stuck to the timetable negotiated by his predecessor, and only after trying to squirm out of it and extend America's stay there); with regard to Guantanamo (Obama never tried to "close" Guantanamo; he merely tried to move it to Illinois); and regarding torture (Obama's prohibition of torture is hardly praiseworthy. Torture is illegal and the president has no more power to prohibit it than he does to permit it. By refusing to prosecute torture, Obama has simply solidified the bipartisan consensus that torture is a policy choice, not a crime. Obama doesn't seem to want to use torture himself, but he's guaranteed that his successors may avail themselves if they choose -- as Romney has indicated he will). They also ignore his stunning record on civil liberties, which as the ACLU has noted is at least as bad as George W. Bush's, his stated willingness to cut Social Security even more than Republicans were demanding, and other depredations.

Reading these endorsements, I found myself wondering what the Times and New Yorker would have done had McCain won in 2008 and implemented the exact same set of policies for which these publications now praise Obama -- that is, if the last four years of White House policies and action had been exactly the same, except that the president would have been McCain rather than Obama. My guess? Were President McCain running for reelection today, the exact policies these publications praise in Obama would have been ignored, subjected to grudging acknowledgment, or even attacked. Healthcare reform? Nothing but a handout to the insurance industry, and an outrage upon the 40 million lower-income Americans who will now be forced to become customers of the giant insurers! Libya? An unconstitutional war and a clear violation of the War Powers Resolution! Etc. And the exact policies these publications choose to ignore in Obama would have been a attacked, too. Imagine, for example, if it were a president McCain running an imperial drone war throughout South Asia, the Middle East, and Africa, and executing American citizens without due process. Either way, though, naturally the publications would have us believe this is the Most Important Election Ever, even though in my thought experiment the last four years would have been identical in every way except for the name of the occupant of the White House. Just swap in the Republican for the Democrat (or vice versa) and keep the policies the same, and every establishment media outlet in the country would, with equal vigor, endorse the opposite of what it endorses today. Most voters would do the same. As though the politician is what matters, not the policies.

But won't Romney be an absolute disaster, you say? Don't we have to hold our nose and vote the lesser of two evils?

Maybe. But tell me this. Has there ever been an election where this wasn't true? All the way back to Eisenhower. Has there ever been a presidential election that wasn't billed as a choice between a suboptimal candidate, on the one hand, and the apocalypse, on the other? That billing is never going to change. If you want to vote for something better, I doubt there will ever be a better time than the present.

It's strange how "hope and change" has become, "Vote for me, or I turn those Supreme Court appointments over to Romney." That's not a progressive platform; it's a hostage taking. And we all know what happens when you give in to hostage takers. That's right, more hostages.

My own attitude? "I don't care who you threaten to turn over the country to. Cross certain lines, and I won't vote for you no matter what." It's the same as a negotiation. If you're not willing to walk away, and especially if you demonstrate that unwillingness to the other party, you will be taken for a long, unpleasant ride.

If Obama loses tomorrow, a lot of people will blame voters like me. I really don't understand that attitude. Look, I'm not going to blame you if Jill Stein or Gary Johnson doesn't win. I could, of course -- if you'd voted for them, they could have won! But overall, I think the blame for a loss lies with the defeated politician, don't you? Aren't politicians supposed to court voters' support, not just count on it? So if Obama loses, and it's because he's alienated his base with his outrageous policies and his obvious disdain, it's not his base's fault. It's his fault. It's worse than crazy to suggest otherwise. It's a bizarre kind of learned helplessness.

In fact, I think voting in accordance with political deal breakers is more morally defensible than voting according to a "lesser of two evils" approach. If everyone votes for the lesser of two evils, we keep getting… more evil. If everyone votes for something better, we get… something better. Or at least the chance of it. "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law." So if Kant was right, and the morality of an action can be determined by asking, "If everyone did this thing, would the world get better, or worse?", voting for the merely less evil candidate is hard to justify. I'd like to see "vote for a candidate you can genuinely support" become a universal law. "Vote for the less evil candidate"… not so much.

If you don't agree, consider this. Today's Democratic candidate. The progressive standard bearer. The champion of the left. Is the man who has done the following. Not because he inherited a mess from Bush. Not because Republicans in Congress obstructed his noble efforts. Nothing caused Obama to pursue and implement these policies other than his own character and political calculations.

The Progressive Case Against Obama

Emily Hauser’s Disgusting Indifference to Women of Color

The Progressive Retreat from Obama: Who is to Blame?

Where is My Half Glass?

Medical Marijuana: Obama Administration Continues Reefer Madness

How many people who voted for Obama four years ago because they hoped for a better future will vote for him now because they're afraid of a worse one? Do you think that's progress? Who is to blame for that change? And should the politician to blame be rewarded? What would such a reward signal to other politicians about how seriously they need to take the concerns of their base?

If you demonstrate to a politician that you'll vote for him no matter what, you'll get… no matter what. And Obama has taken "no matter what" to previously unheard-of levels for progressives. If they reward him at the polls, the next "progressive" politician can be counted on to offer a double helping.

I recommend voting for something better. Either Jill Stein of the Green Party, or Gary Johnson of the Libertarian Party.

Don't let the duopoly make you believe you have no choice. You do. Unless you convince yourself you don't.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby justdrew » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:47 pm

you can't vote against this?





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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby 8bitagent » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:16 pm

So it looks like the voter disenfranchise/fraud/unregistering/etc BS by the Tea Party/Koch/Right wing GOP contingent is getting out of hand. Are they that desperate?
Don't they realize the real elites laugh at them, and like gullible Democrats only use them? Still, knowing the long history of the fight for voting rights in America, its sickening(tho not unexpected) to
see all the bullshit.

I'd rather see Romney win fair and square than see people's votes not count.

justdrew wrote:dude. That pic is such a shallow view. There are significant more differences than coke v pepsi.

yah, obama isn't going to suddenly change america into a different country. but defeating the republican party, and standing with all the others who oppose their maniacal worldview is essential.


I don't believe in voting at gunpoint, which is what the Democrats and left is doing. It's like Tea Party people saying vote Romney, or it's going to be the end of America as we turn into a so-shul-ist commie Sharia law land.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby 8bitagent » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:19 pm

justdrew wrote:you can't vote against this?




You can't vote against this?





WRT death squads, we can look to Coca Cola, big oil in Equador and Nigeria, etc. It's a favored tactic of many globalist corporations.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby justdrew » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:45 pm

8bitagent wrote:
justdrew wrote:you can't vote against this?




You can't vote against this?


nope. no viable option to.

think about what most people THINK (people not so jaded and cynical) Obama stands for. That's worth supporting, their instinct for something better.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Project Willow » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:01 pm

^^ If I remember correctly in which state you live, it is far from swing, Obummer is a done deal there, so you can vote for whomever you want.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby 82_28 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:07 pm

Look at the christian right and their nice little new email they sent me (focus on the family).

Even though there are only 24 hours left, the Nov. 6 election is not yet decided. Please encourage every pro-family voter you know to go to the polls and make his or her voice heard.

Newly elected leaders will shape social policy that will define our nation’s course for years to come. That’s why CitizenLink has been on the ground, making calls and going door to door to rally values voters.

Regardless of the outcome, I need partners like you to stand strong with me to meet the challenges ahead.

Religious freedom is endangered.
The sanctity of human life is threatened.
Traditional marriage is under attack.
Your gift now will help the pro-family voice be part of the ongoing national conversation – no matter who prevails on Election Day.

As a partner with CitizenLink, your gift today will help strengthen our nation, hold elected officials accountable and make an impact on the next four years and beyond!


Seriously, I know they were all code words and memes for them at the time, but "pro-family" and "values voters" has run its fucking course. It is singularly amazing how psychopathic these fuckers are. I mean, I read motherfucking books and shit as a kid put out by focus on the family that said that essentially mormonism was satanism and shit.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:47 pm

We have heard from one additional friend, another woman who was registered as a Democrat in Pennsylvania, whose registration status has mysteriously disappeared, bringing the total to five.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby lupercal » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:05 pm

Luther Blissett wrote:We have heard from one additional friend, another woman who was registered as a Democrat in Pennsylvania, whose registration status has mysteriously disappeared, bringing the total to five.

Holy cow. Romney apparently has scheduled an election-day trip to PA tomorrow which is pretty weird so it looks like they're pulling out all the stops to steal it. :(

Project Willow wrote:^^ If I remember correctly in which state you live, it is far from swing, Obummer is a done deal there, so you can vote for whomever you want.


Willow normally I'd agree but this year really is different and every vote is going to count, even in big blue Pacific states. Between the hurricane, the super-pacs, and like-never-before caging in PA, Florida, and Ohio, the pundits are already talking about an electoral win for BO and a popular "win" for Romney and that's if BO gets to 270 electoral votes. The billionaire boys are sparing no effort to make sure that doesn't happen so I wouldn't waste an opportunity to vote BO if anyone still hasn't and is lucky enough to still be registered. :(

..................

p.s. Walk-in election day registration available in some states:

You can register at the polls on Election Day in the following 9 states and in the District of Columbia: Idaho, Iowa, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Washington DC, Wisconsin, Wyoming.

http://www.longdistancevoter.org/voter_ ... Jh-0-xcyq0
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:14 pm

» U.S. Elections: Will the Dead Vote and Voting Machines be Hacked?
By: Paul Craig Roberts | November 3, 2012

“He who casts a vote decides nothing. He who counts the vote decides everything.”
-Joseph Stalin

Whether or not he said it, Stalin’s quote has entered into folklore. For a vote to mean anything, those counting the ballots must have a greater respect for the integrity of democracy than they have lust for power.

Since Stalin’s time, the technology has changed. With electronic voting machines, which leave no paper trail and are programmed with proprietary software, the count can be decided before the vote. Those who control the electronics can simply program voting machines to elect the candidate they want to win. Electronic voting is not transparent. When you vote electronically, you do not know for whom you are voting. Only the machine knows.

According to most polls, the race for the White House is too-close-to-call. History has shown that when an election is close and there’s no expectation for a clear winner, these are the easiest ones to steal. Even more important, the divergence between exit polls, perhaps indicating the real winner, and the stolen result, if not overdone, can be very small. Those who stole the election can easily put on TV enough experts to explain that the divergence between the exit polls and the vote count is not statistically significant or is because women or racial minorities or members of one party were disproportionately questioned in exit polls.

There have been recent reports that, because of costs, exit polls in the 2012 presidential election will no longer be conducted on the usual comprehensive basis in order to save money. If the reports are correct, no check remains on election theft.

Digital Votes

In a fascinating article in Harper’s Magazine (October 26, 2012) Victoria Collier notes that in the old technology, election theft depended on the power of machine politicians, such as Louisiana Senator Huey Long, to prevent exposure.

With the advent of modern technology, Collier writes that “a brave new world of election rigging emerged.” The brave new world of election theft was created by “the mass adoption of computerized voting technology and the outsourcing of our elections to a handful of corporations that operate in the shadows, with little oversight or accountability. This privatization of our elections has occurred without public knowledge or consent, leading to one of the most dangerous and least understood crisis in the history of American democracy. We have actually lost the ability to verify election results.”

The old ballot-box fraud was localized and limited in its reach. Electronic voting allows elections to be rigged on a statewide and national scale. Moreover, with electronic voting there are no missing ballot boxes to recover from the Louisiana bayous. Using proprietary corporate software, the vote count is what the software specifies.

The first two presidential elections in the 21st century are infamous. George W. Bush’s win over Al Gore was decided by the Republicans on the US Supreme Court who stopped the Florida vote recount.

In 2004, George W. Bush won the vote count although exit polls indicated that he had been defeated by John Kerry. Collier reports:

“Late on Election Day, John Kerry showed an insurmountable lead in exit polling, and many considered his victory all but certified. Yet the final vote tallies in thirty states deviated widely from exit polls, with discrepancies favoring George W. Bush in all but nine. The greatest disparities were concentrated in battleground states – particularly Ohio. In one Ohio precinct, exit polls indicated that Kerry should have received 67 percent of the vote, but the certified tally gave him only 38 percent. The odds of such an unexpected outcome occurring only as a result of sampling error are 1 in 867,205,553. To quote Lou Harris, who has long been regarded as the father of modern political polling: ‘Ohio was as dirty an election as America has ever seen.’"


The electronic vote theft era, Collier reports, “was inaugurated by Chuck Hagel, an unknown millionaire who ran for one of Nebraska's U.S. Senate seats in 1996. Initially Hagel trailed the popular Democratic governor, Ben Nelson, who had been elected in a landslide two years earlier. Three days before the election, however, a poll conducted by the Omaha World-Herald showed a dead heat, with 47 percent of respondents favoring each candidate. David Moore, who was then managing editor of the Gallup Poll, told the paper, ‘We can't predict the outcome.’”


“Hagel's victory in the general election, invariably referred to as an ‘upset,’ handed the seat to the G.O.P. for the first time in eighteen years. Hagel trounced Nelson by fifteen points. Even for those who had factored in the governor's deteriorating numbers and a last-minute barrage of negative ads, this divergence from pre-election polling was enough to raise eyebrows across the nation.”
“Few Americans knew that until shortly before the election, Hagel had been chairman of the company whose computerized voting machines would soon count his own votes: Election Systems & Software (then called American Information Systems). Hagel stepped down from his post just two weeks before announcing his candidacy. Yet he retained millions of dollars in stock in the McCarthy Group, which owned ES&S. And Michael McCarthy, the parent company's founder, was Hagel's campaign treasurer.”



Vote theft might also explain the defeat of Max Cleland, a Democratic Senator from Georgia. As Collier documents:


“In Georgia, for example, Diebold's voting machines reported the defeat of Democratic senator Max Cleland. Early polls had given the highly popular Cleland a solid lead over his Republican opponent, Saxby Chambliss, a favorite of the Christian right, the NRA, and George W. Bush (who made several campaign appearances on his behalf). As Election Day drew near, the contest narrowed. Chambliss, who had avoided military service, ran attack ads denouncing Cleland – a Silver Star recipient who lost three limbs in Vietnam - as a traitor for voting against the creation of the Department of Homeland Security. Two days before the election, a Zogby poll gave Chambliss a one-point lead among likely voters, while the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported that Cleland maintained a three-point advantage with the same group.”



Rigged Game

“Cleland lost by seven points. In his 2009 autobiography, he accused computerized voting machines of being ‘ripe for fraud.’ Patched for fraud might have been more apt. In the month leading up to the election, Diebold employees, led by Bob Urosevich, applied a mysterious, uncertified software patch to 5,000 voting machines that Georgia had purchased in May.”
"We were told that it was intended to fix the clock in the system, which it didn't do," Diebold consultant and whistle-blower Chris Hood recounted in a 2006 Rolling Stone article. "The curious thing is the very swift, covert way this was done. . . . It was an unauthorized patch, and they were trying to keep it secret from the state. . . . We were told not to talk to county personnel about it. I received instructions directly from [Bob] Urosevich. It was very unusual that a president of the company would give an order like that and be involved at that level."


When the Republican Supreme Court prevented the Florida recount in the deciding state between George W. Bush and Al Gore in the 2000 presidential election, the Democrats’ response was to acquiesce in order not to shake the confidence of Americans in democracy. Similarly, John Kerry acquiesced in 2004 despite the large disparity between exit polls and vote counts. But how can Americans have confidence in democracy when voting is not transparent?

For now Republicans seem to have the technological advantage with their ownership of companies that produce electronic voting machines programmed by proprietary software, but in the future the advantage could shift to Democrats. Early voting aids electronic election theft. Successful and noncontroversial theft depends on knowing how to program the machines. The victory needs to be within the range of plausibility. Too big a victory raises eyebrows, but if the guess is wrong in the other direction theft fails. Early voting helps the voting machine programmers decide how to set the machines.

Voting 2.0

The absence of transparency is a threat to whatever remains of American democracy. In the Summer 2011 issue of The Trends Journal, Gerald Celente made the point that “if we can bank online, we can vote online.”

Think about it! Across the globe, trillions of dollars of bank transactions are made each day, and rarely are they compromised. If we can accurately count money online, we can certainly count votes accurately online. The only obstacles blocking online voting are entrenched political interests intent upon controlling the ballot box.

The lack of transparency has given rise to election litigation. On October 29, The Washington Post reported that “thousands of attorneys, representing the two major presidential candidates, their parties, unions, civil rights groups and voter-fraud watchdogs, are in place across the country, poised to challenge election results that may be called into question by machine failures, voter suppression or other allegations of illegal activity.”

Voting online, if properly arranged, can provide the transparency that the current system lacks. While the GOP might remain active in voter suppression, the Democrats could no longer vote graveyards, and the count of those who do manage to vote would not be subject to secret proprietary software.

In 2005 the nonpartisan Commission on Federal Election Reform concluded that the integrity of elections was compromised by those who controlled the programming. Proprietary private ownership of voting technology is simply incompatible with transparent elections. A country without a transparent vote is a country without democracy.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby 82_28 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:15 pm

As for me, I am mostly fucked thanks to the ex. My ballot went to her joint, but apparently she's all signing shit with "return to sender". The Dems called me and told me that I had to send some other ballot in before I could send the new one they sent out. Us fucking Democrats, always following the law and sticking up for one another! I swear the lady sounded desperate to get my shit in order. Nothing I could do. I will attempt a provisional tomorrow. Oh well. There are definitely some basic municipal and state issues I really wanted to vote on.

Willow, do you know of a place I can do of a provisional ballot tomorrow? I hear they are far and few between these days. I guess I can just google too.

All told, if this country falls into a fascist dystopia like nothing we've ever imagined -- go for it. Blame my ex.
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