Fox Network Dollhouse Show - Hip MKULTRA

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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:53 pm

professorpan wrote:.....
It's also important to remember that a depiction of subject X in popular entertainment may open minds, and not just deceive.
.....


It is FAR MORE important to remember that the neuro-science and social-science on fact vs fiction tells us the masses are dying from fiction. The human species itself is threatened.

Ignorance, superstition, indoctrination, and moral disengagement are rampant and the ratio of fact/fiction is way beyond critical.

Compare the audience response to 'An Inconvenient Truth' to the response to 'Soylent Green.' Pretty damn obvious.

Compare the audience reaction to Steven CIA Spielberg's show with the response to Dr. Colin Ross's book exposing MKULTRA.
Pretty damn obvious.

"Just a spoon full of sugar helps the atrocity go down..."
CIA runs mainstream media since WWII:
news rooms, movies/TV, publishing
...
Disney is CIA for kidz!
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Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:26 pm

Hugh, we both know you're fighting a losing battle because facts aren't sexy enough. Grant Morrison is doing more good for future generations than Alex Constantine. Joss Whedon is reaching more minds than Jeff Wells.

You also know, probably in more detail than me, why this is so, on every level from the cultural conspiracies to the individual cognitive biases that make our minds so easy to fuck with.

We need to engage the enemy on the mythic field -- it was never theirs to begin with and we've got home-field advantage.
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Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:27 pm

Basically: we can't un-create the monster. We can only re-design it.
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Postby Project Willow » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:06 pm

Joss has pushed this theme in every single show he's ever done. He knows, and he wants to make sure that future generations know, too. Government do this shit. They don't protect us, we're not safe. That's the message in all of his work. It's very subversive, and we can't keep having kneejerk reactions every time this material is discussed in popular culture.


Although I've suspected, concluded even that he must from some of the dialogue, do you actually know that he knows? If he does know, why doesn't he throw some cash or assistance towards some advocacy groups, or fund a PI? How about some safe houses? How about a research program? Or, heaven forbid, a documentary!

I have a friend who is a huge fan of Whedon's. He owns Firefly and watches it over and over again. He doesn't believe me about my history and tells me I'm nuts every other time I see him. He thinks that's where I got it all from, popular culture.

Joss is entertaining people, the vast majority don't take the material seriously in any way. Sloppy Bush and Co. with Gitmo and Abu Ghraib and rendition made it easier for me to tell my story, not Joss Whedon.

Personally, I'm just not comfortable with a fictional portrayal of a survivor of early childhood trauma being done for laughs. It offends me, no matter how many legitimate experts they say they've consulted.


LilyPat, I understand that completely. If perhaps there had been a little recognition, something in our very real lives, then it might feel different.
The movies that came out before, most were based on real persons, Eve, Sybil, Trudy. The movies told their stories and as such played some part in the healing process for those people. Community recognition is an important part of obtaining a sense of justice. This program is something different altogether.
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Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:27 pm

The vast majority of americans don't have the experiences you do, and so they can handle entertainment that features these themes. That's not going to change. I wish they'd stop making [i]Saw[i]-style torture porn, but that's not changing anytime soon, either.

Meanwhile, Whedon's work is not a celebration of these themes. He makes it very clear who the victims are and where the "evil" is going down. It's not Rob Zombie.

Also, we seem to mean different things when we say "knows" -- I meant that Whedon knows about MK history. You seem to be referring to the clandestine ongoing stuff, no?

Either way, I'd like to see a good documentary, too.

Frontline should have covered it decades ago.
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Postby MinM » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:07 pm

Kim Manners, a prolific director and producer whose long showbiz career stretches from 1971’s “Valdez is Coming” to “Charlie’s Angels,” “Automan,” “Star Trek: The Next Generation,” “The Adventures of Brisco County Jr.,” “MANTIS,” and “Harsh Realm,” passed away Sunday night following a battle with cancer.

His last directorial effort was “Metamorphosis,” the Oct. 9 episode of “Supernatural.”

Manners directed 53 hours of “The X-Files,” including the 2002 two-hour series finale, “The Truth.”

Hailing from a showbiz family, Manners got his start as a second assistant director on the big-screen Burt Lancaster western “Valdez is Coming,” produced by his father Sam.

Joining “Charlie’s Angels” in 1977 as an assistant director and production manager, he eventually directed 11 episodes of that series, starting with 1979’s “Angels Remembered.”

His episode of “Star Trek: The Next Generation” was season one’s “When The Bough Breaks,” about impotent extraterrestrials who kidnap the Enterprise’s children.

“Supernatural” mastermind Eric Kripke issued this statement:

Everyone at 'Supernatural' is walking around in a daze, shocked and absolutely devastated. Kim was a brilliant director; more than that, he was a mentor and friend. He was one of the patriarchs of the family, and we miss him desperately. He gave so much to 'Supernatural,' and everything we do on the show, now and forever, is in memory of him.

Among those surviving Manners is sister and longtime assistant director Tana Manners (“Deadly Whispers”). A brother, Kelly Manners, was a producer on “Buffy The Vampire Slayer” and “Angel” and currently serves as a producer on the upcoming Fox series Dollhouse.”
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Postby MinM » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:28 pm

More on Kim Manners...
Image
VANCOUVER — Supernatural and The X-Files has lost one of its own.

Kim Manners, a Vancouver-based director known for his creative eye behind the camera and his boundless energy behind the scenes, died early Sunday evening at Cedars-Sinai hospital in Los Angeles.

Manners had been diagnosed with lung cancer, and late last season had to step down from his day-to-day duties as senior executive producer and lead director of the cult thriller Supernatural.

I first met Manners during The X-Files' fifth season, the series' final year in Vancouver. Manners was directing a short, inconsequential filler scene in a parking garage and, always one to take a weird angle on the obvious, had decided to shoot the scene at shoelace level. He lay down in a puddle of cold, dank water on the cold, hard cement floor of the parking garage floor and arranged the camera dolly track so that the camera would tilt up from an actor's shoes.

Manners laughed easily, and he could curse a blue streak that would put Gordon Ramsay to shame.

He could be demanding to work for — David Duchovny once told me it took him a long time to warm to Manners, who joined The X-Files in its second — some say best — season.

Manners' episodes for The X-Files included the seriously "out-there" carnival freak show "Humbug"; and the third season's "Oubliette," an episode Duchovny has cited as one of his favourites, in which a lonely waitress in a diner forms an empathetic bond with a 12-year-old girl who has been kidnapped and is about to be murdered unless Mulder (Duchovny) finds her first. That episode, which Duchovny says featured possibly his best performance in the entire series, revealed Manners at his directorial best.

Manners had kept his battle with cancer to himself. A director's job is to get the best out of the people who work with him, even when they're having a bad day, and Manners was one of the best at it.

I learned of Manners' passing in an e-mail from Dave Riopel, who works in Supernatural's grip department. That says a lot. In the end, it was not a famous star or a prominent filmmaker who thought to share the news of Manners' passing, but rather one of the unsung, behind-the-scenes workers no one ever reads about in entertainment magazines. There's a saying in the production business that you can measure a person by how well they're liked by the crew.

Riopel: "[Manners] will be missed by everyone he met as a unique individual, a unique heart, and a great director. This will be acutely felt by his loyal crew, still working today on Supernatural. Rest in peace, Kim."
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Postby Penguin » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:11 am

http://io9.com/5145575/summer-glau-expl ... robot-love

Does Summer Glau's Terminator feel love? Will Terminator season two end with a cliffhanger? Is Glau sick of playing strong women? Glau and producer Josh Friedman answered these burning questions on a conference call. Spoilers...

Does Cameron really love John?

One of the most jarring moments in the show was during the season premiere, where Glau's Terminator, Cameron, said she loves John Connor. Was she just trying to avoid being killed? Or did she mean it, sort of?

Glau surprised me, by saying that "Cameron's deep love for John is because he is her whole reason for existing... I think that is love, and I think she would do anything for him, and in her reality, I think that's what love is for her." She added that she's not sure where Friedman is going with the character, but she always plays it as if she does feel something for John.

The move to Friday nights, and the show's future:

"We were getting our asses kicked on Monday nights," Friedman says. Friday nights have different expectations, ratings-wise, plus it gives Fox an opportunity to promote Terminator and Dollhouse together, creating a science-fiction block that might appeal to the same audience.

Friedman remains optimistic about the show getting a third season, but also addressed the possibility that it might not happen. He says he wrote the season finale "the way I was planning on writing the finale for a long time... You owe the audience a logical conclusion to the things we have been building towards." It's true that fans get upset when a show has an open-ended conclusion and doesn't come back, but "fans also get upset if we write a crappy finale. If I tried to sum up every single thing in 43 minutes, it would be a disaster. It would end up like a clip show."

He also reiterated that the rest of the season is more serialized, with fewer standalone episodes, than the first half was.

Shocking things in the season finale:

Glau says she just read the script for the season finale and she was "shocked." Not to mention excited and "a little sad." It sounds as though something tragic and/or sad happens to Cameron this season. "I think everybody's going to be shocked at what happens at the end of this season." And Cameron has some great scenes in that episode.

Also, she has lots and lots of gun battles and smackdowns in the last nine episodes, way more than in the first half of the season. "People are going to be on a roller-coaster" in the final episodes.

The awesomeness of Summer Glau:

Friedman says he saw Summer audition several years ago, and really wanted to cast her in something. But instead, she went off to do the Serenity movie and The 4400. Friedman carried her audition tape around with him for a few weeks afterwards. And when the time came to do the Terminator show, he wrote the part of Cameron for her. "She's one of those few people who can be completely still, and still hard to take your eyes off."

Glau says that playing a robot is more challenging in some ways than playing a regular human, because she has to plan out everything in advance. She can't just react naturally or convey normal emotions.

In the pilot episode, Friedman says, he and producer James Middleton saw Glau do something incredibly clever during one take. They weren't sure if she was doing it on purpose, but then during the next take, she did it again. That was when Friedman realized how awesome Glau was going to be at playing this character, and how little hand-holding she was going to need.

Also, that scene in a recent episode where Cameron says she feels, because she wouldn't be much good if she didn't? That's part of Cameron's scheme. "I think she has a plan for drawing John closer to her, and so I've been trying to incorporate that all season," says Glau.

Also, someone asked Glau, "Do you ever get tired of playing deceptively strong asskickers?" And this was her whole answer: "No." Then she was pressed to elaborate, and she said something about how she enjoys playing complicated characters. But also, Cameron has gotten to be the damsel in distress on some occasions, and she's gotten to be sort of a princess and do ballet.

Other stuff:

Friedman says he'd like to be able to revisit the "Alison from Palmdale" character at some point — the future human whose appearance, and apparently memories, Cameron borrowed from.

Another character who might be revisited at some point: the engineer who built the time machine in the bank vault in 1963, which we saw in the show's pilot episode. The writers regularly debate whether to bring that engineer character back. Some writers pitch Friedman stories about that characters, but others never want to see him on the show. Friedman is obsessed with "the engineer" and definitely would like to bring him onto the show sometime — but not in the second season.

Cameron has "very few advantages" in a straight-up brawl with Shirley Manson's Catherine Weaver. It would be like a replay of the fight in Terminator 2.
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Postby LilyPatToo » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:28 am

There's a new article on Dollhouse at Salon--Trapped in the Dollhouse--sounds as if Whedon's original idea was somewhat different from what Fox bought. Along with the author of the piece, I'm hoping that the show's a big enough hit that he can get back to doing what he does best ASAP.

There's also an interview he did for Salon here in which he talks more about why he's doing this unusual project. (Be sure to read the 2nd page, if only for his opinion of Battlestar Galactica with which I agree 8)) I was hoping he'd mention William Gibson's Johnny Mnemonic and Neuromancer character Molly Millions, who worked as a "meat puppet" when she needed money to pay for her cybernetic work--IIRC, she had a brain implant that could be used to switch her own personality off, then her body was rented out to a wealthy, seriously twisted customer who wanted bizarre sex that involved cutting and lots of blood. She had implanted razors in her fingertips, I believe.

There may have been earlier mind-wiped prostitutes in science fiction, but Molly's the first one that comes to mind. She appeared in several of Gibson's cyberpunk stories--The Sprawl trilogy--and fascinated me. In fact I did a portrait of a cyber-babe like her many years ago that's still selling. I've always wondered if Gibson had any knowledge of the existence of real mind controlled prostitutes/sex slaves back when he wrote those books (early 1980's)?

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Postby Penguin » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:25 am

Yeah, except imho BSG is one of the psyoppiest and dismally hopeless shows in a long time. Seriously, its one mindfuck. I cant find any positive things in it...

Would some fan care to elaborate what makes it good?
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Postby IanEye » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:08 am

Image

a long time ago
I turned to myself
and said, "you - you are my daughter"

I saw that the image
I saw there as well,
"so, you are my daughter"

well then we've got something to talk about

who told you so?
that gold burns slow
like coal camper's candles
all lost in the snow

lay down you're on
the warmth that I'm weaving
is for you alone

up on the sun
where it never rains or snows
there's an ocean
with a wind that never blows
and if you see it closer
then the finer points will show

not too much more
too much more

not too much more
too much more ...


Image
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Postby Penguin » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:23 am

http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/02/dollhous ... tings.html

'Dollhouse' premieres soft; 'Terminator' dives



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'Dollhouse' premieres soft; 'Terminator' dives

Dh_sc41_0018 Expectations were low.

But they weren't quite this low.

The series premiere of Joss Whedon's "Dollhouse" was seen by 4.7 million viewers Friday night and garnered a 2.0 preliminary adults 18-49 rating and 6 share. It was beaten in the 9 p.m. hour by ABC's "Supernanny" (6.1 million viewers, 2.2/7) and is the lowest-rated scripted series premiere on a major broadcast network this season aside from NBC's now-defunct "Crusoe."

"Dollhouse" was paired with the midseason return of "Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" (3.7 million, 1.3/5), which was shifted from its previous Monday post. "Terminator" came in third place in the hour and hit a series low (by like 27%). "Terminator" beat NBC's "Howie Do It" (3.9 million, 1.2/4), but not by much. Both "Ghost Whisperer" (10.3 million, 2.4/8) and "Wife Swap" (4.3 million, 1.5/5) did better.

The performances represent a disappointing debut for what was, on paper, a good idea: creating a male-skewing sci-fi block to go against CBS' night-topping female-skewing crime shows. Fox didn't expect to win against CBS, but had some hope of coming out ahead of ABC's reality shows. But "Terminator" was sinking in the ratings earlier this season and "Dollhouse" has suffered from negative buzz and creative trouble for months. Critics, overall, seemed disappointed with Whedon's latest effort.

Fox had a third-place finish for the evening despite airing full-budgeted dramas. "Dollhouse" fared OK against two of its competitors, with CBS' Canadian import "Flashpoint" (8.9 million, 1.9/6) and NBC's ailing "Friday Night Lights" (3.5 million, 1.1/3) pulling lower numbers. It also did better than last year's short-lived "Canterbury's Law" in the slot.

At 10 p.m., an episode of ABC's "20/20" (10.9 million, 3.4/11) about the impoverished hill people of the Appalachian Mountains drew the newsmagazine's largest Friday audience in more than four years (ABC, in fact, won the night over CBS, which is rare). Yes, there was a whole morbid curiosity "real-life 'Deliverance'" aspect to its popularity. But give ABC and Diane Sawyer credit for convincing so many people to watch a report on poverty. Usually a newsmagazine needs an octuplet mom to pull off those kind of numbers.
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Postby OP ED » Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:23 pm

(i have a crush on diane sawyer)
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Postby professorpan » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:33 pm

Yeah, except imho BSG is one of the psyoppiest and dismally hopeless shows in a long time. Seriously, its one mindfuck. I cant find any positive things in it...

Would some fan care to elaborate what makes it good?


Quality writing, a good stable of actors, pertinence to real world/contemporary issues and mythic themes. It's intelligent sci-fi that doesn't insult its viewers, which is very, very rare.

"Psyoppiest"? Now that's funny.

And Dollhouse was horrible. I didn't know it was a vanity vehicle for Whedon's crush (she is a co-producer as well as the lead), who is to "actress" what GW Bush is to "humanitarian." My wife and I laughed through the whole show. I'll be amazed it if lasts more than 6 or 7 episodes.
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Postby marmot » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:21 pm

Fwiw, I thought BSG's Razor was a pretty entertaining movie.
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