MC and delusions (loads of TRIGGERS)

[LilyPatToo]

Sorry it turned out to be so effing long! I honestly didn't realize how much I had to say until after I'd said it and hit Post. Perhaps jumping in on the 5th page of a thread isn't such a good idea, but the distracting off-topic trolling really put me off posting until that page.

And there are at least 3 separate issues touched upon in my post, when I know perfectly well that posts that focus on 1 issue are much more likely to spark a discussion. Perhaps the one of wavie vs. physical-trauma-based programs would be the best to tackle here, since it's the one you originally tried to get people talking about. It's an absolute minefield too--I've never seen a thread on it fail to erupt in flames at some point.

But it's vital for anyone trying to find their way through the thorny thicket of MC disinfo. And I do wish someone would come up with a non-pejorative way of describing "wavies" too.

LilyPat

[exojuridik]

exojuridik, when I read your post I immediately thought of PJ Gaenir's disturbing online book Bewilderness. Have you read it? If not, I think you'd find it well worth your time. In the years I've been reading RI, I can't recall ever seeing it discussed, but I do not want to derail this thread, so if you find food for thought in it and begin another thread on her experiences, I'll happily post to it. As leery of "WOO used to derail/disinform" as I am, there's enough of it in my personal history to compel me to examine that aspect.

Wow, I just started reading Bewilderness and think you are correct in saying that it belongs to its own discussion. However, this passage from the intro does resemble my feelings/misgivings toward exploring the subject:

My willingness to address everything, from hallucinations and potential sleep disorders and schizophrenic symptoms, to shamanic symbols and dreams, from alien experiences to religious icons to Egyptian and occult symbolism -- my range of experience only seems to make people angry. Just as they think they have another story to add to the list of those supporting their beliefs, I tell of an experience they're sure contradicts (or invalidates) myself, or them.

In someways the very effort of escaping the "invisible ghettos" of one's condition/experience requires a discussion which may inadvertantly invalidate the experience of another. I am not well read enough in this area to know what and where the lines are. From my perspective it doesn't matter if the details of the survivor stories are 100% accurate in a literal sense - the validity in my mind stems from the fact that these people suffer these experiences which are then ignored/dismissed by the medical community with little or no curiousity about the narratives themselves.

Indeed, I too am suspicious of those stories involving woo and mysticism. the fact that I suffered from these experiences makes me no less skeptical of paranormal explanations. However, I know that I am not mentally ill and that even during those weeks and months of exiting in this other surreal mind state - I was always able to distinguish between fantasy and so-called reality. Yet is was painful and required extreme attention on my part not to succumb to paranoia or wishful/magic thinking.
The question that remains for me is one of both taxonomy and diagnosis - what the hell happened and is this happeneing to others who may or may not categorize it in the same manner I have.

The fact that there were strong similarities between my experiences and other mind control survivors deserves, in my mind, investigation - but this inquiry needs to be done so delicately so as to not either discredit the experiences or offend the sensibilities of other survivors who may have similar experience but ascribe different causes. What is so challenging is that the very investigation also serves as a form of therapy - a catharsis and a source of meaning so that one can integrate the painful experiences into one's sense of self.

What is so frustrating for me is that I don't even know where my experiences fit in as defined by any community of similarly situated individuals. Am I woo/MC? and how would this differ as compared to WAVE/MC as compared to RA/MC? or perhaps I am just plain crazy? Yet, if I learned anything from enduring my own personal psychic gauntlet is that I have only myself to trust when it comes to making sense of my experiences. I just hope that i convey them in a way that is helpful for others.

[Cordelia]

That said, what do the much less numerous survivors of the trauma-based programs do when we're lumped into the same category as the wavies and dismissed? In that sense, I can clearly see how successful that little psy-op has been in fostering knee-jerk invalidation of anyone who emerges from the MC closet and speaks out about Real World human rights violations. Most of us are just not able to be loud enough to be heard above the sound emanating from a vast sea of mental suffering. It serves as background static that drowns out the signal when people like me speak out.

A lot of the time, when reading the MC/RA threads, I'm either struggling to understand the lingo, or feeling shell shocked. I'm usually unsure if it's due to my own dissociative state or to a derailing. So, thank you LiliPat for this beautifully eloquent post (all of it, not just what I quoted) to put the train back on the track. (imho)

[LilyPatToo]

exojuridik, that's a good point--part of the confusion surrounding the WOO and wavie mind control issues is due to the difficulty that survivors have in sorting it all out. What was part of a mind control program and what was possible anomalous High Strangeness stuff? Which might be a deliberately implanted screen memory? How do we be both honest/candid and rigorous in evaluating and reporting what we remember?

And as for knowing where the lines are, I've been reading intensively daily for over 5 years now on this subject and still can't say where they are for certain. So I tend to self-censor when I post, which leaves a sour taste in my mouth for days afterward. But when I haven't, I've exposed my jugular to ravening roaming packs of skeptics and they've almost never failed to lunge at it. The resultant carnage tends to derail threads and to leave me in real distress, not to mention the damage being done to the subject as a whole.

Thank you, Cordelia. I hope this thread is back on track, because it addresses a problem I've been struggling with for so many years. And that's a good point about the effect upon anyone with PTSD of flaming and trolling in mind control threads. Wish I understood why disruptive or just plain show-offy posters are so strongly drawn to them? Since survivors of the programs were tortured by empathy-deficient people, we tend to be re-traumatized by trolls and the more obnoxious skeptics. But when we say so, we're subject to eye-rolling and sneers about our "oversensitivity"...'round and 'round it goes and the ultimate victim is the credibility of the subject matter. Maddening.

LilyPat

[lightningBugout]

Lots of people with dissociative disorders and/or PTSD become very interested in consciousness, including mysticism and synchronicity. Once you realize what your mind was/is capable of, it is a natural and, perhaps, healing progression to make to become interested in consciousness itself.

Which is not, btw, to assume that those meanderings on the nature of mind and illusion upthread were at all appropriate to this thread.

Thank you LPT for returning this thread to its original subject after several pages lost.

edited to censor my own righteous anger at a particular poster because it will only feed his (not real) ego.

[lightningBugout]

Wish I understood why disruptive or just plain show-offy posters are so strongly drawn to them?

People are not prone to be sensitive or empathetic to the delusions of others. I assume that such people think someone claiming an MC history are deluded and, in some sort of inverse way, think they are offering up "tough love." This doesn't bother me so much anymore. Just makes me yawn.

And I am equally guilty of it at times. My strategy for dealing with a "wavie" would, in all honesty, probably not amount to offering a great deal of sympathy. Empathy for their suffering, yes. Comfort, yes. But I would not validate their experiences for them. Though on the other hand, nor would I ever mock them.

For as long as they remain skeptical of the overall reality of MC, I anticipate that problem will continue. I guess the trick is to get to a place of internal healing where it no longer phases you and expect validation mostly from yourself and a select few confidantes.

For that matter, any claim (righteous or otherwise) of being re-victimized or attacked will play into their perception that clearly anyone claiming to be a "survivor" is someone who is prone to claiming victim-hood. It's a double bind.

[Maddy]

People are not prone to be sensitive or empathetic ...

[Evutch]

well, i NEVER post here, once in a long while, and i avoid it because sometimes i get intimmidated by some great minds here.
but, excuse my spelling and syntax, and i'll be short..
i CAN'T stand the the doubt injectors that try and put in two cents while smugly dismissing peoples difficult awakening past the pain and new found self awareness of these crimes gone by ever so sinisterly quiet with word play and mind games as a sort of "like, it's like your reality, but it's all in your imagination" crap.

i've known more than a few of these sufferers, and while in the beguinning i also may have thought to myself "this is NUTS" it DID make me pay attention to more that transpired around me, and apply what they had seen to my own past, and ask those questions that makes one go mad, question sanity, and and in plain words wonder WTF?
it's hard. and it can strip ALL those lovely little safe "land of OZ" screens alot of people have put in place to protect ones self.
( our media DOES do this for us, ever so softly so gentle, with great sound tracks, and laugh tracks,, and colorful commercials repleat with ,memorable scores)
i THOUGHT i was going crazy in remembering.
it was beyond everything i thought possible.
i went into a very damaging depression.
BUT, i was LUCKY as all get out. i met and READ peoples post on this amazing social system, the internet.
so, without having to whisper to family, and take cahnces with randonm "friends" or "professionals", and get more help, such as "gee, i think you're bi-polar", i was able to glean the VAST ocean of information available here, at MANY of those "crazy" boards.
and you know? i found out that SO many stories MATCHED what i had seen.
now, i would have felt MUCH better, i suppose if i were "nuts", that i had found a kindr4ed kind, but what i felt was much deeper.
i realised, that ALL those victims i had seen abused, enslaved, sexually and mentally destroyes, and all those i had watched killed, ( yes killed, as in dirty little war, as in "here", not JUST in south America, but HERE!) were true, and beyond that, i was able to open my eyes some more, and watch it going on STILL, all around me.
i THOUGHT i was better than that at not being affected by MK.
i wasn't.
however, because of some of the great people here, and at other boards, brave people, smart people, these secrets won't dissappear.
that's good.
i went to a GRAY ops unknown alphabet snoop conference only 5 year ago, or so.
one that's been around a LONG time.
fucking people over.
here near DC.
i'll even mention it by name, LEIU.
the grandaddy of some of these systems.
i saw their works many years ago.
what they did. and what they are doing NOW.
they're dressed up prettier now.
and their members are more educated. more professional.
while visiting their conferrence, and training session, i looked at their lecture/class board, and read the synopsis of what they were being taught.
they were being taught control.
of events, and covers, and media, and information.
and PEOPLE.
and ONE of the things they were being taught..
was how to discredtit anyone trying to OUT their ops.
and one of those classes, ( and there were TONS of classes, amazing close to a hundred, the reading was overwhelming) there was one that caught my eye.
it was about discrediting experiences posted on public threads of the internet.
how to do it.
how to recruit, sometimes even unbeknown, thse who could disrupt the information.
how to urge them to destroy the ones posting info too close to the truth.
how to control and distract the main group, and how to frighten others away.
how to use ones damaged psyche against them.
how to do so and garner sympathy. how to do so, and seem like a victim of the victimised.
how to turn tables.
how to discredit, and how to follow up and disude posters from going elsewhere.
EVEN how to gather them at special sites to control them.

i'll stop here for a second JUST to say, it's AMAZING to me, how far into any of these conferences one can get by hanging multiple tags and cards around ones neck, including a pool pass, and a Star Trek engineering ID.
and i bought all kinds of souveniers, WOO WOO! can't wait for the next one so i can get MORE!

also, it was also fightening to see cute little sponsor booths all over, of companies that make toys and things to monitor and and such all of us citizens in this wonderful free nation.
including some big media names. and computer companies. and software companies.
i got mayself some great baked goods and drink from the food bar..
not bad food at all.
oh, and it WASN'T secret agent dress that got me in..
i was dressed like a janitor..
( with neck tags) BUT, all i had to do, was get behind a gal with clevege, and a short skirt, and ride down an escatlator, behind her, and while the security was busy trying to look up her skirt, dodged around all of the tag inspectors..
gee, kinda like james bond eh?
lol.
no, really.

so, sorry for venturing too far around the barn here..

i was LUCKY as all get out. when i was younger, i grew up over seas, and i was able to dodge alot of the preconditionning americans went through.
now, i WAS subceptable, after all, i'm not an immune superperson, BUT, i survived a ton.
and was able to see.
without the clouds of fog all around.
and able to pull some of it out.
so, i AM more aware now.
and have been careful not to allow myself to indentify with some peoples experiences into a mind meld hive effect.
BUT, i know what i SAW, and i know when others experience mesh.
and it MESHES very very well.
it's real. REAL.
not some alternate "REALITY".
and any who poo pooh it too blythely, i'd say is insane.
or crazy, or just plain stupid.
they are either caught up by the smoke and mirrors.
or have ties to the guys behind the curtain.
and i KNOW some of those old perps too.
and you know what?
they REALLY take it hard, when they find out they aren't the puppet masters.
that they are just chumps.
that they weren't "secret agents".
that they were only conditioned MK trained gofers for the biggies.
that they were fucked too.
and they got NOTHING.
they were bought and sold, just like the slaves they helped gather up.
wow, there's too much to say here.
i'm hot.
sorry.
to the nay sayers, kiss my survivors ass.
to the survivors, pay attention, and good work.

when i was younger, i worked for a company, that was owned by a relocted NAZI war criminal, that wasn't good enough to come here with paperclip..
at two location, community hospitals, that were both owned by mafia heads..( this is going somewhere, trust me) and i knew it..
and big wigs knew it.
i was aked to go to a special meeting, where there was going to be this Chinese cunny ( sorry, i would call her worse, and if you recognise her, Whitley S. would, you would too), anyways, they were i THINK trying to bring prospects for her approval.
her boy friend was there. he made quite the impression..he was very suave and charming..
she was said to be a reincarnation of Joseph Goebbles.
he was german, from argentina.
i don't remember her name.
sorry, BUT, i do know he was Mengleles son.

all i can remeber, is that they were using terms like "alpha" or "epsilon", and "beta", or "theta", to discribe some of the people there..
MK people KNOW what was happenning.

and if any of you insane ones or schitzoid ones here are getting chills, stay insane.
you'll stay much healthier.

ok, i vented enough for now.

and to all the louie louies here, up yours.

[Maddy]

[n0x23]

Still casting aspersions?
That's fine, have at it.

It would seem that the "wounded victim script" is used as a defensive when convenient.

But that aside, I have a serious question...several of you give the impression of sympathizing, empathizing and projecting a sense of helpful compassion to those that are experiencing the same as yourself and yet when I posted....

Maddy wrote:

You can sit there and theorize, study and research cancer all day long, its still not going to give you the insights into how it is to have cancer or what, exactly, going through chemotherapy is like. Don't assume. Until you've had your identity stolen, it would be impossible for you to realize how important that identity is.

...and my reply...

There's more than one way to lose one's identity and it's a life altering, absolutely terrifying, fucking experience, beyond accurate description and sometimes, one never regains that lost identity.

But hey, what the fuck do I know?

...I was completely ignored.....Why is that?

Do I not fit your criteria?
Am I not worthy of your compassion?

[lightningBugout]

You know n0x, it looks 100% right now as though you are simply trying to derail this thread, again.

As the OP, I am requesting that you stick to the topic at hand.

[n0x23]

You know n0x, it looks 100% right now as though you are simply trying to derail this thread, again.

No, no I'm not, nor was that my intention the first time.

As the OP, I am requesting that you stick to the topic at hand.

I see, so...sigh....how are my question's not relevant to the topic at hand, seriously?

[lightningBugout]

Here's what we got.

1. Claiming that people here are "fawning" over symptoms of DID (which doesn't even make sense.)

2. Saying. "It would seem that the "wounded victim script" is used as a defensive when convenient."

3. Claiming another poster threatened to "face r___" someone else. Particularly after she had deleted her post out of regret and a mod had reprimanded her.

4. Being warned by the very owner of the whole damn place about your language.

5. Telling a woman offended by your use of the word "whore" that she has issues related to sexism and is "projecting" on you.

Dude you have a history right here of mind-fucking (point #5), bringing up sexual assault very inappropriately (point #3), carrying on despite two mods independently warning you of rule violation (point #4), belittling self-identified survivors as attention seekers (point #2) and that the dynamic here is on in which survivors are being coddled by weak-minded enablers (#1).

Forget about your stated intentions and let the record show that you are highly disrespectful and, at times, threatening.

Go back to JREF.

[operator kos]

DID/MPD is far-end on the dissociative scale. You can even say it's far-end on the PTSD scale, as severe dissociative states are part-and-parcel of PTSD, and no one doubts the existence of that. And you don't have to go through a) a war or b) MC to have either. They're discovering that DID/MPD is more prevalent, recently, not only in children who have been in abusive households (and not necessarily needing the extreme sexual violence it was once believed) and that PTSD is common in people who have been in abusive relationships (they're considering changing Borderline Personality Disorder to C(omplex)PTSDas it's being discovered that its a PTSD reaction/self-defense rather than a "personality disorder" - which, by the way, is why they changed MPD to DID).

Again, seeing the horrors that human beings can do to others (recorded throughout history) I can't imagine anyone questioning psychological protective mechanisms to deal with them.

Fantastic! I'm going to print out your post verbatim and give it to the friend I was talking about. Thank you.

[LilyPatToo]

lBo, that's possibly the most cogent troll rebuttal I've ever read Congratulations and thank you.

Evutch, I am so glad you decided to post here. And glad Maddy "got" what you were saying, too. I've been reading your sorta-free-verse posts for so many years that I think I may have one of those "Universal Translators" a la Star Trek in place at this point

Evutch said:

...and one of those classes, ( and there were TONS of classes, amazing close to a hundred, the reading was overwhelming) there was one that caught my eye.
it was about discrediting experiences posted on public threads of the internet.
how to do it.
how to recruit, sometimes even unbeknown, thse who could disrupt the information.
how to urge them to destroy the ones posting info too close to the truth.
how to control and distract the main group, and how to frighten others away.
how to use ones damaged psyche against them.
how to do so and garner sympathy. how to do so, and seem like a victim of the victimised.
how to turn tables.

The pro-wannabe, LEIU-trained disruptors of threads like this (and their amateur but enthusiastic buddies) can be found on just about every thread anywhere that discusses mind control programs. I've been posting on this subject for 5 years now and I can't think of a single thread on a public board that hasn't had to withstand attempts at distraction. Some are more effective than others and some are made by people who later do a 180 and apologize once they catch on to the fact that they're disrupting a serious discussion about human rights abuses.

Sure would be nice if that would happen here...

LilyPat