Who Parked The Moon?

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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby justdrew » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:35 pm

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http://spaceports.blogspot.com/2010/10/chnagee-now-in-target-orbit-around-moon.html

The third braking of Chang'E-2 has been successful today (9 Oct) for the Chinese lunar spacecraft; thereby placing the lunar orbiter on the target orbit of 100KM * 100KM around the Moon. The period of the target orbit is about 117 minutes.

In the target orbit, Chang'E-2 will work and explore the lunar surface for about six-to-nine months. The topography and material composition of the lunar surface will be measured in the future. The space environment around the moon and the microwave thermal emission of the moon will be measured by Chang'E-2, according to Yong-Chun Zheng at the National Astronomical Observatories, Chinese Academy of Sciences.

Long-March-3C carrier rocket took Chang'e-2 into space blasting off from the Xichang Satellite Launch Center, in southwest China's Sichuan Province, on Oct. 1.



http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/change-2-china-second-moon-probe-launch-101001.html
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby 82_28 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:05 am

Wow. Sure, it's technofascist and all that. But what China is doing here is rad. I have long had a fantasy of being a janitor on the dark side of the moon. That's basically what I say when people over the years ask me what I ultimately want to do with my life. I want to be a janitor on a lunar station on the dark side of the moon!
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:35 am

AM I JUST NOT GETTING IT?

Some of the "anomalies" are either over my head or over my head. Case in point -- one from the latest round of Secret Sun Material:
http://secretsun.blogspot.com/2010/11/e ... uders.html

Furthermore, the Moon mirrors the movement of the Sun in the sky by rising and setting at the same point on the horizon as the Sun does at opposite solstices. For example, this means the Moon rises at midwinter at the same place the Sun does at midsummer. There is no logical reason why the Moon mimics the Sun in this way and it is only meaningful to a human standing on the Earth.


What am I not getting? This seems like a complete tautology. It's precisely because of this alignment that a solstice is a solstice in the first place. We put those markers there to mark that -- that's why the mark is there. What am I not getting?
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby crikkett » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:15 am

Wombaticus Rex wrote:AM I JUST NOT GETTING IT?

Some of the "anomalies" are either over my head or over my head. Case in point -- one from the latest round of Secret Sun Material:
http://secretsun.blogspot.com/2010/11/e ... uders.html

Furthermore, the Moon mirrors the movement of the Sun in the sky by rising and setting at the same point on the horizon as the Sun does at opposite solstices. For example, this means the Moon rises at midwinter at the same place the Sun does at midsummer. There is no logical reason why the Moon mimics the Sun in this way and it is only meaningful to a human standing on the Earth.


What am I not getting? This seems like a complete tautology. It's precisely because of this alignment that a solstice is a solstice in the first place. We put those markers there to mark that -- that's why the mark is there. What am I not getting?


You don't get that solar cycles and lunar cycles are completely different.

A solstice is defined only as the lowest or highest point on the horizon that the sun rises in the course of the year; for about two weeks around the event the sun seems to rise and set at the same points on the horizon (or, stand still).

The moon's cycle of rising and setting along our horizon (the precession of the plane of the lunar orbit) lasts 18.6 years. I don't know the name of the cycle but its peak is called a Major Lunar Standstill, and its ebb is called a Minor Lunar Standstill.

Here's a link http://www.umass.edu/sunwheel/pages/moonteaching.html
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:30 am

Because of the rapid orbit of the Moon around us in a plane which is close to the plane in which we always see the Sun, THE MOON DOES IN A MONTH WHAT THE SUN DOES IN A YEAR, in terms of the changing rising and setting direction along the horizon. That is, the moonrise and moonset directions change like a pendulum, swinging back and forth along the horizon and completing one full swing each month. The Sun's pendulum-like swing continues much slower, with the Sun completing one full swing each year.


!!! Awesome stuff, thank you for the link.

Over the 18.6-year cycle of the Moon, THE CHANGING MOONRISE AND MOONSET DIRECTION BEHAVES LIKE A COMPOUND PENDULUM SYSTEM.
More time is spent monthly at the N and S extremes of moonrise and moonset than in the middle -- this behavior is described by the first pendulum.
And, from month to month within the 18.6-year cycle, the Moon spends more time with the monthly range of rising and setting at the outer extremes (major standstill) and at the inner extremes (minor standstill) than at the middle extremes.
It is as if the pendulum representing the monthly range of lunar rising and setting is modulated by 2 additional small coupled pendulums, one at the Sun's northern rising limit and one and the southern. When these 2 pendulums swing out we get MAJOR lunar standstill, and when they swing in we get MINOR lunar standstill.


But, so, what I get from this is fascinating -- more so than the original line from Christopher Knight I quoted via Secret Sun. It also contradicts his flat assertion that "There is no logical reason why the Moon mimics the Sun in this way." Clearly there is a reason, which is explained in that perfectly over-written Umass link. The reason raises questions of it's own, but there's a mechanical model that's more interesting than the Mystery Gloss.

(On the same note, the second half of that sentence, "and it is only meaningful to a human standing on the Earth," ...also kinda dubious. If the moon is a massive pendulum dynamo system, that probably has a major effect on the circulation of our solar system. It totally changes my visual conception of planetary systems, actually, now that I think of them as dynamo systems that are churning through the vast electric void and creating flows of molecules and random particulate space dust between worlds. Even if all that is just poetry, there's still no reasonable reason to assume this incredible earth-moon system is only relevant to surface dwellers, is there?)

Anyways, glad to see it's cooler than I thought. I like this Universe a lot, I'mma stick around.
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby crikkett » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:51 am

Wombaticus Rex wrote:If the moon is a massive pendulum dynamo system, that probably has a major effect on the circulation of our solar system. It totally changes my visual conception of planetary systems, actually, now that I think of them as dynamo systems that are churning through the vast electric void and creating flows of molecules and random particulate space dust between worlds. Even if all that is just poetry, there's still no reasonable reason to assume this incredible earth-moon system is only relevant to surface dwellers, is there?

Anyways, glad to see it's cooler than I thought. I like this Universe a lot, I'mma stick around.


I enjoy your enthusiasm so much, Wombaticus Rex. I didn't grok orbits until I started considering the sky the way I would a pool table.

Chris is okay! He's exploring just like the rest of us, and he portrays himself as more honest about his process of discovery than most.
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:24 pm

Can the moonrise/moonset comparisons to sunrise/sunset movents along the horizon throughout the month/year be explained by the much more palatable mystery: "the moon, for whatever reason, rotates around the earth not along it's tilted axis (following the equator), which is much more common in the solar system, but along something closer to earth's solar orbit plane..."?
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby Simulist » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:26 pm

Who Parked The Moon?

Okay. The truth is, his name was Algernon P. Hawthorne, and he banged the shit out of it 'cause he "just had" to back it in to the spot.

(In all fairness, the Brits do have the steering wheel on the wrong side...)
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby justdrew » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:37 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:AM I JUST NOT GETTING IT?

Some of the "anomalies" are either over my head or over my head. Case in point -- one from the latest round of Secret Sun Material:
http://secretsun.blogspot.com/2010/11/e ... uders.html

Furthermore, the Moon mirrors the movement of the Sun in the sky by rising and setting at the same point on the horizon as the Sun does at opposite solstices. For example, this means the Moon rises at midwinter at the same place the Sun does at midsummer. There is no logical reason why the Moon mimics the Sun in this way and it is only meaningful to a human standing on the Earth.


What am I not getting? This seems like a complete tautology. It's precisely because of this alignment that a solstice is a solstice in the first place. We put those markers there to mark that -- that's why the mark is there. What am I not getting?

Well, I haven't had time to verify, but I just think the claim is spurious. In other words, I suspect: The moon does not rise on a solstice at the same point the sun did on the previous solstice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analemma

Analemma of the Moon...
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:45 pm

The disk along which the orbits of all the planets and their larger moons align is called the ecliptic for a reason, and it's not coincidental, and it's not a who but a what what made it. (Who keeps parking this thread?)
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:11 pm

brainpanhandler wrote:OK, I thought about it. 1) "Is this a natural or artificial phenomena?" Occam's Razor.... answer: natural. 2) "Where in the universe can one find three celestial bodies with this kind of coincidence?" Not sure where, obviously, but the universe is unimagineably huge so I am guessing this sort of arrangement occurs hundreds of thousands of times at a minimum. Probably millions. When you throw in the extra variable of sentient beings those numbers would be reduced substantially. How much? I dunno.


We also have to bear in mind that there may be not just one universe, but an infinite number of them. If the infinite universe theory is true then everything, however unlikely, including seemingly deliberate celestial configurations, would already have happened an infinite number of times, with an infinite number of variations, and will go on happening to infinity.... and beyond!

But that's probably for another thread.

Personally, I agree with David Niven that the moon is, in fact, a balloon.
"The universe is 40 billion light years across and every inch of it would kill you if you went there. That is the position of the universe with regard to human life."
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby slimmouse » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:57 pm

brainpanhandler wrote:OK, I thought about it. 1) "Is this a natural or artificial phenomena?" Occam's Razor.... answer: natural. 2) "Where in the universe can one find three celestial bodies with this kind of coincidence?" Not sure where, obviously, but the universe is unimagineably huge so I am guessing this sort of arrangement occurs hundreds of thousands of times at a minimum. Probably millions. When you throw in the extra variable of sentient beings those numbers would be reduced substantially. How much? I dunno.


[/quote]

Strikes me as anything but randomly natural. If it happens once in a million galaxies, and of those one in a million galaxies there is sentient life capable of understanding this on one in a million, that makes umpteen times luckier than any lottery winner alive.

Its kinda "coincidence theorists guide to 9/11" -supersized
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby 82_28 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:41 pm

slimmouse wrote:
brainpanhandler wrote:OK, I thought about it. 1) "Is this a natural or artificial phenomena?" Occam's Razor.... answer: natural. 2) "Where in the universe can one find three celestial bodies with this kind of coincidence?" Not sure where, obviously, but the universe is unimagineably huge so I am guessing this sort of arrangement occurs hundreds of thousands of times at a minimum. Probably millions. When you throw in the extra variable of sentient beings those numbers would be reduced substantially. How much? I dunno.




Strikes me as anything but randomly natural. If it happens once in a million galaxies, and of those one in a million galaxies there is sentient life capable of understanding this on one in a million, that makes umpteen times luckier than any lottery winner alive.

Its kinda "coincidence theorists guide to 9/11" -supersized[/quote]

We're only witnessing nature from our slice of time and small locale -- which isn't small at all -- we are but nodes, sensors, something akin to a cosmic RFID chip. We're trying to fit in all that is within a span going back not much more than a few hundreds of years or even a few thousands. We're trying to fit it all into a time that is basically the lifespan of a human -- we're analogizing. We're being technocrats and/or technofascists. All things have happened before because they are happening now. What has happened just now, happened in the past, because there is no present to speak of. Our brains have no hard drive, but work rather with we could consider organic random access memory. This is why we are "erased" from time to time as the greater machine evolves and updates. To know the past is to know the future. To know the future is the realm of the gods, the prophets, the scam artists. Hence the beauty of the manipulation of chemicals and substances you can put into your mind in order to make it all stop.

The Empire Never Ended.

This is deeper and more elaborate than any kind of Lawrence Fishburne bearing two pills could ever come up with. The matrix and the golly gee wow aspect of it was a cover for just how deep it really does go. What I write now is a cover for it. We only have so many useful daemons of meaning to plug in. If there's nobody out there to understand your language then you are an idiot. This is our problem. Sadly, English, as far as we are concerned is all we have to use. There are two, possibly three forces that are contending for our future and the way we will interface with it. Perhaps even look at it as the ancient contentions of old religions. INTERFACING. Some form of disembodied life wants us to interface with the new gadget of control of our very own making. . .

Etc etc etc. . .
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby crikkett » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:13 am

Luther Blissett wrote:Can the moonrise/moonset comparisons to sunrise/sunset movents along the horizon throughout the month/year be explained by the much more palatable mystery: "the moon, for whatever reason, rotates around the earth not along it's tilted axis (following the equator), which is much more common in the solar system, but along something closer to earth's solar orbit plane..."?


Hi, at the link I posted earlier, there are 2 big reasons why the solar and lunar rise/set are out of synch wrt position along the horizon

(1) The Moon completes one orbit around us in a much shorter time than 1 year (in 29.5 days or about a month, in fact, in contrast to our orbit around the Sun with a period of 365.25 days).

(2) The plane of the Moon's orbit is close to the plane of Earth's orbit around the Sun, but not identical -- the Moon orbits us in a plane which is tilted by 5.1° relative to the ecliptic.

Because of the rapid orbit of the Moon around us in a plane which is close to the plane in which we always see the Sun, THE MOON DOES IN A MONTH WHAT THE SUN DOES IN A YEAR, in terms of the changing rising and setting direction along the horizon. That is, the moonrise and moonset directions change like a pendulum, swinging back and forth along the horizon and completing one full swing each month. The Sun's pendulum-like swing continues much slower, with the Sun completing one full swing each year.
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Re: Who Parked The Moon?

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:41 pm

There's going to be a total lunar eclipse over most of North America on the solstice this year, who wants to do DMT with me out in the woods somewhere?
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