zionists vs. truth

[pitcairn]

Joe,and yesfer

the thing that is so ... well what can you call it .... really "off" about the wes clark remarks, at least as reported, is that the true "moneymen" in new york, the "real deal" moneymen, are the same as they've always been, and being jewish wouldn't be an advantage, it would be at best neutral, and more likely a hurdle to overcome, to get into the real inside club

I think the mk ultra survivors can speak to all that very well, they certainly have been around the real moneymen and powerbrokers, and "religious affiliation" is pretty meaningless in those circles, at least as most people understand such a thing

I actually think the forward piece was a bit muddleheaded, but maybe wes clark was muddleheaded too ... if you want to talk moneymen, you have to talk about an interconnnected inner circle who are also twined together over generations by intermarriage and endlessly looping schemes and alliances for favour, placement, and profiteering

Nelson Aldrich's Old Money is a good read; these people live in another world, even to this day

[erosoplier]

All I can say is: thank God for the scroll key. So many words, so little sense, as someone said.

Go back and read the definition of zionism that Sunny posted: notice there is no mention of the legal and human rights of the Palestinians. That says it all.

Zionism is predicated on the annihilation of the Palestinians, their negation, their irrelevance.

Israel is the product of zionism. As such, it is a criminal, racist enterprise.

We have international laws, we have Geneva Conventions; they're fair and good and logical and humane. They PREVENT massacres. They PREVENT injustice. They PROTECT human lives and the right of all people to live in peace and not be terrorized for not belonging to the right religion, race, ethnic group or gender. Once these are applied, poof! Israel will disappear.

Given the choice between justice, morality, humanity, and the zionist state, I choose the former. Zionists choose the latter.

It's that simple.

Alice, you are going to have to become more newonced, otherwise you will be a Nazi and people will die. Their blood will be on your hands. OK?

[AlicetheKurious]

Joe, I find it odd that you keep harping on my use of the word zionism. Zionism is what I'm referring to. The Zionists call it zionism, just like the South Africans had apartheid and the Nazis had National Socialism, the British had their Empire, the French had their "mission civilisatrice" and Mussolini and Franco had fascism.

Thank you for expressing your opinion, but if you don't mind, I will keep referring to the ideology that advocates the "return" of "the Jewish people" to their "homeland", ie, which maintains that any Jew, by sole virtue of being Jewish, has a claim to the land of Palestine that is superior to any of its legal inhabitants, as zionism, whether the Christian or the Jewish versions thereof, when that is the accurate word for what I'm talking about.

If you don't like the term "zionist", then maybe you can take it up with them.

BTW, even I'm starting to get bored with this thread, and I'm a participant. Neither the amount of factual information, nor the quality of arguments, justify the 7 pages it's already taken up. I'm including my own contribution to this irritating, aimless and futile discussion. So, I think I'll stop, now.

erosupplier: "out, out, damned spot!"

[AnnaLivia]

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[Horatio Hellpop]

Anna, as a reader what should I do? Please advise

[AnnaLivia]

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[Jeff]

I don't see that Alice was advocating anything like genocide or hatred of a people; only that if the state of Israel were subject to the same standards and international laws most countries are held to, then the state itself could be subject to dissolution.

Naturally it's a contentious opinion, but I think it's one that can be argued from a place of integrity.

[pitcairn]

well Horatio, as a reader, here's what I did; I went back to reread the pulled quote in Anna's post, in its original context:

Go back and read the definition of zionism that Sunny posted: notice there is no mention of the legal and human rights of the Palestinians. That says it all.

Zionism is predicated on the annihilation of the Palestinians, their negation, their irrelevance.

Israel is the product of zionism. As such, it is a criminal, racist enterprise.

We have international laws, we have Geneva Conventions; they're fair and good and logical and humane. They PREVENT massacres. They PREVENT injustice. They PROTECT human lives and the right of all people to live in peace and not be terrorized for not belonging to the right religion, race, ethnic group or gender. Once these are applied, poof! Israel will disappear.

Given the choice between justice, morality, humanity, and the zionist state, I choose the former. Zionists choose the latter.


so Anna, I think you are either genuinely altogether misunderstanding Alice here; or, you saw that phrase and were temporarily blinded by it, and so unable to see the context; or, you are being a little disingenuous

I know Alice has taken a powder, so I will be careful not to speak for her

however, speaking for myself: I believe Alice is referring to what I have decided to call Historical Zionism, that is to say, the Zionism that is on the record, the Zionism whose "official" definition, encompassing its native character and approved methodolgy, aims and goals, as described and posited and delimited by its own devisers, establishers, and maintainers, in readily accessible written records and statements, is the progenitor and guiding principle of Israel as we know it

Historical Zionism contravenes the Geneva Conventions

a homeland for Jews, an Israel, could be conceived and established that would not be a product of such a scheme as Historical Zionism

Alice posted an excerpt and link to source of just such an example, of people coming to live together in the geography in question in such a way that all are coequals, all rights respected, all life shared

there is a more beautiful Israel in that community than all the nation building by war-making has ever, will ever, or can ever achieve

if I build my house on your grief and loss, it can only be a house of sorrow and sickness forever

let not Israel be a house of sorrow and sickness forever

that would be the true destruction of the Jewish people

[erosoplier]

Quote Alice, unequivocal about her approval and desire: “Once these are applied, poof! Israel will disappear.”

Unaddressed by readers, unaddressed by admin.

Un-fucking believable

So you interpret what Alice said as a call to genocide? There seems to be a lot of this going around. I'd just like to point out that no humans necessarily need to die when particular regimes/nation-states come to some kind of end. I'm sure this would be Alice's fondest wish for Israel - actually it is - she has said as much in a post above.


The early zionists had a job gaining the support of Jews for it's cause. The fear was prevalent that the founding of their own nation would make them unwelcome everywhere else. There was a time when most Jewish leaders were opposed to zionism - they saw it as an unwarranted mixing of worldly and spiritual matters. The vast majority of them were natives of other lands and had never set foot in Palestine, so it goes without saying that their identity as Jews wasn't reliant upon their actual geographic location.

If Israel went poof! tomorrow - don't hold your breath - there would still be Palestine, and within Palestine there would still be the commonly accepted geographical epicentre of the spiritual home of the Jews. When all is said and done, Israel is a secular state anyway - just yesterday an Israeli politician was roundly condemned for calling the selection of the first Arab into the Israel government cabinet an "attack on zionism." So politically, Israel is supposed to give no special benefit to Jews - why would a similarly secular state called "Palestine," which replaced "Israel," offer Jews anything less in the way of political rights? And if Jews are religiously satisfied by living in the secular state called "Israel" due to its geographical location, how could they be any less religiously satisfied if they lived in a secular state with the same geographic location but it was called "Palestine?"

[AnnaLivia]

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[Et in Arcadia ego]

Where's Mad Onion when you need him?

[MASONIC PLOT]

Sliced and diced, baby.


Alice makes excellent points and Jeff's interpretation of her POV is right on. Read what is actually being said before you start slinging mud at her. Jesus.

[pitcairn]

Where's Mad Onion when you need him? rofl

I think I just heard Hell freeze over, lol

People with good and true hearts simply do not use the terminology of “this whole country ABC disappearing poof!” NONE I EVER HEARD EVER. This is not how people who are working for peace and justice speak. This is not our language at all. This vile filth is coming straight out of the far right wing and it’s fucking poison.

well Anna I must respectfully disagree

and suggest that you must not get around much

the US of A, as it is presently functioning, I would really like to see "disappear" as in "poof"

and I'm not lonely over here, either

the US of A as it functions as a once slave holding, and since, ongoing oppressor of black and brown and red and female persons, uh I wouldn't mind seeing that national entity disappear in a puff of smoke

the US of A, as it functions, cavalier in attitude, I might add, but wholly without redeeming style and form, as an imperialist behemoth sucking the life and health out of millions, nay billions , I really wouldn't miss it

anyone who has read any of my posts knows I'm not on the right, much less the far right wing of anything

I would say that getting Jeannie or Endora to "poof" the imperialist dictatorship we now live under off into some safe incarceration somewhere would be the biggest step toward peace we've ever seen

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Anybody see page 15 of today's NYTimes? Monday, January 15 2007.

Big article and photo of Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss wearing a tag that says, among other things, "A Jew Not a Zionist."

The NYTimes says he's "a spokesman and assistant director for a small anti-Zionist group with a foothold in this town in Rockland County, home to one of the nation's largest communities of Hasidic Jews."

There's also a photo of him hugging Iran's Ahmadinejad at that conference in Tehren 12/12/06.

So there's living proof of the distinction between Zionism and Judaism which only sometimes overlap. This isn't just a topic that keeps filling RI's Firepit forum.

[AnnaLivia]

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