Oath Keepers: When the Teabaggers Just Aren’t Whacked Enough

[mentalgongfu2]

American Dream, do you have something against the Constitution and the upholding of oaths?

Which ones do you object to?

1. We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects -- such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.

3. We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty and declares the national government to be in violation of the compact by which that state entered the Union.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control” during any emergency, or under any other pretext. We will consider such use of foreign troops against our people to be an invasion and an act of war.

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies, under any emergency pretext whatsoever.

10. We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

How do they look through your personal lens?

I noticed you mostly posted links to negatively-framed articles and asked the same questions over and over again.

Is there something more to your perspective?

So Searcher, you think the Oath Keepers are just fine?

If not, where do you differ, and how strongly?

So, Sounder, do you have any more of a critique of the Oath Keepers than what you wrote immediately above? Like say for example concerning their ideology or strategy for change?

So sounds like we've got a number of people here who do support the Oath Keepers, but don't?

Don't you have concerns about them?

So have you ever expressed much concern about the Oath Keepers?

How do they look through your personal lens?

Is there something more to your perspective on these people?

[8bitagent]

Global warming is real, we need to impose massive carbon economies to stave it off

Global warming is a hoax, dont believe it!

The Oath Keepers/Militias are here to stand up against the NWO elite and tyranny in the government.

The Oath Keepers will do the bidding of the chaos makers who run the whole show!

Obama is starting to seem just like Bush, too conservative for my tastes... Im not sure I trust him

Obama is a liberalcommie socialist whose gonna dun take are guns!!!

It seems, just like how all sides of World War 2 were stoked and flamed, once again the framing of the issue is manipulation on all side.
Damned if you do, damned if you...well, do.

[Searcher08]

I noticed you mostly posted links to negatively-framed articles and asked the same questions over and over again.

Is there something more to your perspective?

So Searcher, you think the Oath Keepers are just fine?

If not, where do you differ, and how strongly?

So, Sounder, do you have any more of a critique of the Oath Keepers than what you wrote immediately above? Like say for example concerning their ideology or strategy for change?

So sounds like we've got a number of people here who do support the Oath Keepers, but don't?

Don't you have concerns about them?

So have you ever expressed much concern about the Oath Keepers?

How do they look through your personal lens?

Is there something more to your perspective on these people?

Thank you for that. They are interesting questions from an NLP point of view...

I think it is really important to understand different epistimologies and be able to use them

(Here is what I mostly use on R.I. )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_model_%28NLP%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model

[23]

So, Searcher08... and since you enjoy swimming in the waters of NLP... what do you think is AD's primary representational system (VAK) from the brief excerpt of his words below.

I'm going with auditory. Concur or differ?

I noticed you mostly posted links to negatively-framed articles and asked the same questions over and over again.

Is there something more to your perspective?

So Searcher, you think the Oath Keepers are just fine?

If not, where do you differ, and how strongly?

So, Sounder, do you have any more of a critique of the Oath Keepers than what you wrote immediately above? Like say for example concerning their ideology or strategy for change?

So sounds like we've got a number of people here who do support the Oath Keepers, but don't?

Don't you have concerns about them?

So have you ever expressed much concern about the Oath Keepers?

How do they look through your personal lens?

Is there something more to your perspective on these people?

Thank you for that. They are interesting questions from an NLP point of view...

I think it is really important to understand different epistimologies and be able to use them

(Here is what I mostly use on R.I. )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_model_%28NLP%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model

[Searcher08]

So, Searcher08... and since you enjoy swimming in the waters of NLP... what do you think is AD's primary representational system (VAK) from the brief excerpt of his words below.

I'm going with auditory. Concur or differ?

I noticed you mostly posted links to negatively-framed articles and asked the same questions over and over again.

Is there something more to your perspective?

So Searcher, you think the Oath Keepers are just fine?

If not, where do you differ, and how strongly?

So, Sounder, do you have any more of a critique of the Oath Keepers than what you wrote immediately above? Like say for example concerning their ideology or strategy for change?

So sounds like we've got a number of people here who do support the Oath Keepers, but don't?

Don't you have concerns about them?

So have you ever expressed much concern about the Oath Keepers?

How do they look through your personal lens?

Is there something more to your perspective on these people?

Thank you for that. They are interesting questions from an NLP point of view...

I think it is really important to understand different epistimologies and be able to use them

(Here is what I mostly use on R.I. )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_model_%28NLP%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model

There are also some visual references in there -
where do you differ
which is place based
looking through your personal lens
an interesting statement which implies a first position perceptual position. It assumes I have one perceptual viewpoint, when there is a lot of extra information to be gained from second position - eg trying to stand in the shoes of the guy who founded Oath Keepers and third position - being a fly on the wall observing his place in the wider environment.

also
more to your perspective

(which begs More than what in particular? or More, how?)

which is also visual.


There are lots of nominalisations: words such as
concern, critique, ideology, strategy for change, just fine which dont pass the wheelbarrow test - (you cant put a concern in a wheelbarrow)

Dont you have concerns about them?
The reminds me of the modal operator of necessity
Shouldnt you have concerns about them?

What would happen if I didnt have concerns about them?


So have you ever expressed much concern about the Oath Keepers?

This presupposes:
I have concerns about them
I am not expressing my concern about them now, but there might have been a time when I did.

Much concern, according to whom?
What would yo see hear or feel that would let you know I was much concerned about Oath Keepers?

[23]

Thanks for your opinion.

I cued in on "like say for example" and "so sounds like".

When AD refers to someone else, he uses visual descriptors. But when he refers to himself, I see principally auditory ones.

Just wondered what your NLP trained eyes saw.

So, Searcher08... and since you enjoy swimming in the waters of NLP... what do you think is AD's primary representational system (VAK) from the brief excerpt of his words below.

I'm going with auditory. Concur or differ?

I noticed you mostly posted links to negatively-framed articles and asked the same questions over and over again.

Is there something more to your perspective?

So Searcher, you think the Oath Keepers are just fine?

If not, where do you differ, and how strongly?

So, Sounder, do you have any more of a critique of the Oath Keepers than what you wrote immediately above? Like say for example concerning their ideology or strategy for change?

So sounds like we've got a number of people here who do support the Oath Keepers, but don't?

Don't you have concerns about them?

So have you ever expressed much concern about the Oath Keepers?

How do they look through your personal lens?

Is there something more to your perspective on these people?

Thank you for that. They are interesting questions from an NLP point of view...

I think it is really important to understand different epistimologies and be able to use them

(Here is what I mostly use on R.I. )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_model_%28NLP%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model

There are also some visual references in there -
where do you differ
which is place based
looking through your personal lens
an interesting statement which implies a first position perceptual position. It assumes I have one perceptual viewpoint, when there is a lot of extra information to be gained from second position - eg trying to stand in the shoes of the guy who founded Oath Keepers and third position - being a fly on the wall observing his place in the wider environment.

also
more to your perspective

(which begs More than what in particular? or More, how?)

which is also visual.


There are lots of nominalisations: words such as
concern, critique, ideology, strategy for change, just fine which dont pass the wheelbarrow test - (you cant put a concern in a wheelbarrow)

Dont you have concerns about them?
The reminds me of the modal operator of necessity
Shouldnt you have concerns about them?

What would happen if I didnt have concerns about them?


So have you ever expressed much concern about the Oath Keepers?

This presupposes:
I have concerns about them
I am not expressing my concern about them now, but there might have been a time when I did.

Much concern, according to whom?
What would yo see hear or feel that would let you know I was much concerned about Oath Keepers?

[American Dream]

I was leaving some space open that one of the you might actually have a difference of opinion with the folks you are defending.

So yes, I was inviting each of you to express a clear and principled critique of the Oath Keepers.

Anyway,maybe this thread has been educational for others. It certainly has been for me.

[mentalgongfu2]

American Dream, I hereby invite you to present, in your own words, a clear and principled critique of the Oath Keepers.

Could you please explain in detail your own opinions regarding this group? (Since you ignored the questions in my prior post)

That would make this thread much more educational, from my perspective.

[American Dream]

Hi mgf-

If the defenders of the Oath Keepers will give me a few sentences regarding their position, I will be most happy to return the favor.

I'm guessing that you are another of the Oath Keepers' supporters?


I do think that my position on all of this should be pretty obvious...

[23]

Hi mental-

If the defenders of the Oath Keepers will give me a few sentences regarding their position, I will be most happy to return the favor.

I'm guessing that you are another of the Oath Keepers' supporters?


I do think that my position on all of this should be pretty obvious...

OK, I'll bite this apple again. Since it is worth biting.

mentalgongfu2 listed what the Oath Keepers are trying to get police officers and soldiers to commit themselves to.

They are:

1. We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects -- such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.

3. We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty and declares the national government to be in violation of the compact by which that state entered the Union.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control” during any emergency, or under any other pretext. We will consider such use of foreign troops against our people to be an invasion and an act of war.

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies, under any emergency pretext whatsoever.

10. We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

Since cops and soldiers are our public servants and we pay their salaries via our taxes, I, personally, want them to conduct themselves in the above 10 ways.

As a fellow taxpayer of theirs, do you also? Or do you have a problem with any of the above 10 conducts that they are trying to get cops and soldiers to perform?

My reply is a very specific one. I want our cops and soldiers to conduct themselves in the manner listed above (1-10). Do you?

[American Dream]

Well of course I do, but that doesn't mean that I support the Oath Keepers.

We're talking about very basic logic in this regards.


So you completely support the Oath Keepers?

If so- did you, or would you, join up?

[23]

Well of course I do, but that doesn't mean that I support the Oath Keepers.

We're talking about very basic logic in this regards.

So you completely support the Oath Keepers?

If so- did you, or would you, join up?

I'll let the readers discern of there's any logic to your position of not. Notwithstanding your attestation that your position is a logical one.

And what's with this garbage of "completely support", AD? Are you using the litmus test of perfection to make your "logical" point?

Yeah, I support their publicly stated raison d'etre. Glad to see that your logical mind does too.

As for taking their oath, I'm not an LEO or part of the military. But I certainly support their efforts to enlist as many cops and soldiers, to their oath, as they can.

[American Dream]

Really, 23, if you want to read the nuance, my question could best be interpreted as asking you: "How much do you support the Oath Keepers? And where and why do you not support them, assuming this is the case?

As to me, while I do support those stated goals in so far as they suggest resistance to Authoritarianism, I don't support the Oath Keepers or Militia Movement much at all.

Do you somehow think that supporting personal freedom irrevocably leads to supporting the Oath Keepers and the Militias?

[23]

Really, 23, if you want to read the nuance, my question could best be interpreted as asking you: "How much do you support the Oath Keepers? And where and why do you not support them, assuming this is the case?

As to me, while I do support those stated goals in so far as they suggest resistance to Authoritarianism, I don't support the Oath Keepers or Militia Movement much at all.

Do you somehow think that supporting personal freedom irrevocably leads to supporting the Oath Keepers and the Militias?

I notice that you lump the Oath Keepers and Militia Movement in one gulp. Did you do that intentionally, or what is an automatic reflexive response?

I ask because their leader said this:

"We're not a militia," he said. "And we're not part and parcel of the white supremacist movement. I loathe white supremacists." http://www.lvrj.com/news/oath-keepers-p ... 90232.html

Can I assume that you don't assign any credibility to his public statement? And, if you don't, what facts do you lean on to support your disbelief? Facts italicized for a reason, of course.

P.S. I'm sure that his statement... "I loathe white supremacists"... pleases many a white supremacist. It should get many of 'em on board, eh?

[American Dream]

I would put them in the same ballpark. And I don't particularly trust the Oath Keepers' statements that they are so completely different.

Anyway, are you going to respond to the questions?