How Bad Is Global Warming?

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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby smiths » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:00 am

Climate change skeptics can no longer complain that the mainstream media has glossed over ClimateGate.
Yesterday the Associated Press published a virtual exegisis of the 1,073 emails stolen from climate researchers at East Anglia University.
It was written by five AP reporters who reviewed more than 1 million words between them and then sent the juiciest passages to seven experts in research ethics, climate science, and science policy.
The experts were underwhelmed, to say the least.

"None of the e-mails flagged by the AP and sent to three climate scientists viewed as moderates in the field changed their view that global warming is man-made and a threat," the AP reported. "Nor did it alter their support of the conclusions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which some of the scientists helped write."

The AP examined an email that is cited more often than any other by global warming skeptics, a message in which climate scientist Phil Jones says: "I've just completed [climatologist] Mike's [Mann] trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years [from 1981 onward] and from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline [in temperature readings]." Skeptics have cited the message as evidence that climatologists are cooking the books, but the AP saw it differently:

Jones was referring to tree ring data that indicated temperatures after the 1950s weren't as warm as scientists had determined.

The "trick" that Jones said he was borrowing from Mann was to add the real temperatures, not what the tree rings showed. And the decline he talked of hiding was not in real temperatures, but in the tree ring data which was misleading, Mann explained.

Mark Frankel, director of scientific freedom, responsibility and law at the American Association for the Advancement of Science, saw "no evidence for the falsification or fabrication of data, although concerns could be raised about some instances of very 'generous interpretations.'" Dan Sarewitz, a science policy advisor at Arizona State University, added: "This is normal science politics, but on the extreme end, though within bounds." (And that's coming from a guy who works at the same university where climate researchers have taken more than $1 million from oil, coal and utility interests).

Ultimately, the AP found no evidence that the emails revealed a "culture of corruption," as some Republicans have claimed. The story makes clear that the climatologists were under siege from lawsuits and FOIA requests from skeptics eager to twist their raw data. Despite these pressures, the emails show that the scientists respected their critics so long as they were professionals who published through the peer-review process and not Internet cranks eager to feed a "den of disinformation."


http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2009 ... t-skeptics



and for the record

The Idso clan is the von Trapp family of climate change denial. In 1980, paterfamilias Sherwood Idso, a self-described "bio-climatologist," published a paper in Science concluding that doubling the world's carbon dioxide concentration wouldn't change the planet's temperature all that much. In years that followed, Idso and his colleagues at Arizona State University's Office of Climatology received more than $1 million in research funding from oil, coal, and utility interests. In 1990, he coauthored a paper funded by a coal mining company, titled "Greenhouse Cooling."

In 1998, Idso's son Craig founded the Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change and began publishing CO2 Science, an online digest of climate change skepticism. He subsequently earned his PhD in geography from ASU under the tutelage of climate skeptic Robert Balling, then the director of its climatology program. In the early 2000s, Idso was director of environmental science at Peabody Energy, the world's largest privately owned coal company. After Peabody laid him off, he began aggressively fundraising for the center, whose budget increased from just north of $30,000 in 2004 to more than $1 million last year. Since 2006, the center has mounted a spirited defense of carbon dioxide using everything from ancient tree-ring data to elementary-school science experiments. "[S]cience tells us that putting more CO2 in the air would actually be good for the planet," its website says. "Therefore, in invoking the precautionary principle one last time, our advice to policy makers who may be tempted to embrace Kyoto-type programs is simply this: Don't mess with success!"

Like his dad, Craig Idso has become a preeminent "scientific" climate change naysayer. In lieu of his father, who refuses to travel in airplanes, in June the younger Idso jetted off to the Heartland Institute's climate change conference. There he released "Climate Change Reconsidered," a 20-page report that suggested that Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change scientists had tweaked their findings in hopes of being invited to conferences involving "hotel accommodations at exotic locations." More recently, the Idsos have marketed the report as a timely expose of "Climategate Culture."

In 1998, Keith Idso, vice president of the Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and a school teacher, did an experiment with his fifth-grade science class. The lesson, which demonstrates that plants need CO2 to thrive, has been taught in other classrooms across Arizona. Sherwood Idso has praised his son's experiment for showing that cutting carbon emissions would reduce "the future benefits we could have in terms of agricultural productivity." In 1999, the speaker of the Arizona House of Representatives appointed Keith Idso to serve on the state's Advisory Council on Environmental Education.


http://motherjones.com/environment/2009 ... dso-family
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby tazmic » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:16 am

More from the Times:

Two years ago, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the UN agency which evaluates the risk from global warming, warned the glaciers were receding faster than in any other part of the world and could “disappear altogether by 2035 if not sooner”.

Today Ramesh denied any such risk existed: “There is no conclusive scientific evidence to link global warming with what is happening in the Himalayan glaciers.” The minister added although some glaciers are receding they were doing so at a rate that was not “historically alarming”.

However, Rajendra Pachauri, the chairman of the IPCC, told the Guardian: “We have a very clear idea of what is happening. I don’t know why the minister is supporting this unsubstantiated research. It is an extremely arrogant statement.

The science is settled, right?

"Hasnain has since admitted [since being busted] that the claim was “speculation” and was not supported by any formal research."

World misled over Himalayan glacier meltdown

And the coverage that is so very welcome here WUWT
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby smiths » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:20 am

well, its worth throwing in that where i live we are having our hottest january on record, today third day at 41c
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Hammer of Los » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:59 am

Someone's built a fence between us smiths. Let's break it down.

I'm sorry but that really is a useless article by Josh Harkinson.

Let's leave aside the issue of the AP's curious role in this, and their credibility in examining documents for evidence of a breach in research ethics or good methodology. What does the Josh Harkinson's article tell us?

"None of the e-mails flagged by the AP and sent to three climate scientists viewed as moderates in the field changed their view that global warming is man-made and a threat," the AP reported. "Nor did it alter their support of the conclusions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which some of the scientists helped write."


Manmade CO2 has a warming effect.

The globe is warming.

We all agree on this, I thought that had been established.

Furthermore, I am not surprised that a small selection of emails didnt result in IPCC members refuting their own conclusions.

Smiths, no-one here is suggesting that the email correspondents spoke openly of knowingly falsifying the data. We've all read about the tree ring stuff already.

And I had never even heard of these Idso people;

Josh Harkinson wrote:Meet the 12 loudest members of the chorus claiming that global warming is a joke and that CO2 emissions are actually good for you.


Oh. It's Josh again. I think he has a pony in this race. But what chorus is he talking about? No-one here says global warming is a joke and that CO2 emissions are good for you. Good old Josh is just preaching to his own choir. I'm not sure exactly what is supposed to be damning about the article though, other than like just about every scientist working in the good ol' US of A, they receive funding from industry.

Smiths, you do know they are gonna shove nuclear power down your throat on the basis of global warming, dont you? We believe greenhouse gases create warming. We are not sure how much. On the other hand, the dangers of nuclear power are very well known. You know, they probably just want some more fissile(?) material for those new nukes they have been cooking up.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby chump » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:00 am

Perhaps seeing is believing. Sychronicity is a wonderful thing; someday I might tell you about what happened as I pulled these up.

Water car inventor killed

Mass production water powered car
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:43 am

Here's a tip.

Have a look at the (exponentially) increasing frequency of wildfires over the last 100 years.

For anyone who died, or lost someone in the last 20 years especially ... I dunno if global warming could get much worse.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Byrne » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:59 am

James Balog: Time-lapse proof of extreme ice loss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjeIpjhAqsM

(Can someone tell me how to embed youtube vids on the (new) board here. I use bbcodeXtra which disables the buttons on the 'Post a Reply' page)
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby lupercal » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:15 am

Byrne, put the youtube number (last part of URL) between the youtube tags, as below, but remove the spaces:

[ youtube ] DjeIpjhAqsM [ /youtube ]

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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Byrne » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:45 am

lupercal, thanks for that
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Blue » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:55 am

DeltaDawn wrote:Haven't figured out even quote stuff here, but "The NWO are the good guys" lol, yeah maybe? We know the 666 beast will come first, could the beginning actually be the one world government? Will it take a deadly wound that will enable the Beast to come with wonderous acts to heal it? Is it all inevitable, because 'it is written'?


Are you a Fundamentalist Christian?

Global Warming is bad. Very bad. I personally know a glaciologist who has been in the field studying ice cores from Argentina to Kilamanjaro for nearly 40 years. This is real. No amount of hyperbole from CT's, politicians, paid-off scientists, or extreme religious people will change the data or the facts. How humans deal with it (or don't which is what they're doing) is the source of contention. The Maldives will disappear underwater within our lifetime. The western ice sheets of Antarctica are past the tipping point. The next ice age will not come soon enough to halt the sea level rise which will cause catastrophic damage to places where humans live.

There are real scientists who do real science and it's telling that so many people don't believe their data any more.

On edit: There's always someone claiming it's too hot here or too cold here. That's weather. Local. Climate change is systemic and long term. The massive changes in the entire planet's climate results in extreme weather where records are broken in all directions. The seasons are disappearing. Long term.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:59 pm

There is That which was not born, nor created, nor evolved. If it were not so, there would never be any refuge from being born, or created, or evolving. That is the end of suffering. That is God**.

** or Nirvana, Allah, Brahman, Tao, etc...
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby tazmic » Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:02 am

Scientist admits IPCC used fake data to pressure policy makers:

"The scientist behind the bogus claim in a Nobel Prize-winning UN report that Himalayan glaciers will have melted by 2035 last night admitted it was included purely to put political pressure on world leaders."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245636/Glacier-scientists-says-knew-data-verified.html#ixzz0dWhkcVC8

UN wrongly linked global warming to natural disasters:

"THE United Nations climate science panel faces new controversy for wrongly linking global warming to an increase in the number and severity of natural disasters such as hurricanes and floods."

"We find insufficient evidence to claim a statistical relationship between global temperature increase and catastrophe losses."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7000063.ece

Image
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:00 am

Blue wrote:On edit: There's always someone claiming it's too hot here or too cold here. That's weather. Local. Climate change is systemic and long term. The massive changes in the entire planet's climate results in extreme weather where records are broken in all directions. The seasons are disappearing. Long term.


Here's a list of serious australian bushfires over the last 80 years. Notice anything?

from [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wildfires#Australia]wikipedia
[/url]

Australia

See also Notable bushfire events

* Black Friday Bushfires of 1939 (Victoria)
* Black Sunday Bushfires of 1955 (South Australia)
* 1961 Western Australian bushfires
* 1967 Tasmanian fires
* Ash Wednesday fires of 1980 and 1983 (Victoria and South Australia) (Country Fire Service,Country Fire Authority)
* 1994 Eastern seaboard fires
* The November 1997 fire in the Sydney area (New South Wales Rural Fire Service)
* Black Christmas (bushfires) 2001-2002
* Canberra bushfires of 2003
* Black Tuesday bushfires of 2005 (Eyre Peninsula South Australia)
* Mount Lubra bushfire of 2006
* Black Saturday bushfires of 2009, the deadliest bushfire event ever recorded in Australian history


Thats fairly accurate, tho there are some omissions. It gives the gist well enough to covey a serious change over a very long time ... perhaps the 20th century was unusually wet here. I've been fighting bushfires here for nearly 15 years, everything after '94 happened in my time, I remember some of those on that list, or others at the same time round here or elsewhere, some of them I was days off deployment when weather conditions eased and we didn't have to go. Canberra, the alps in 06 and Melbourne last year, all are nearly 1000km to 1500km away so things are desperate when they ask us to travel that far. 2001 and 2003 were particularly bad seasons here.

Conditions have changed, even since 2001, but its a subtle change. Things seem to dry out quicker, the long term wind patterns are becoming more erratic, so although the drought in this part of the world has finished we've just finished a mad fire season. It was flooding in April, and 24 months ago we had a record flood. The rain has been good cept for a few dry periods. They are normal, but the rate of drying during them is faster. During fire season, which can sometimes be 9 or 10 months long (well once, its usually 7 months tho, the start of sept to start of april,) I write fire permits, and have since '97. In fire season I am the person you talk to if you want to burn something bigger than a campfire or a bonfire at a party. Its my responsibility to assess the conditions and I adjust the parameters of each permit accordingly. 8 to 10 years ago ... things were different, these days its less predictable and I put more restrictions and less leeway on permits, especially if I don't know that the person doing the burning knows what they are doing.

thats not really a long term change tho. Unlike the the frequency of serious fires.

It seems as though there is a 30 year drought cycle on the East coast of Australia. 1911, 41, 71, and the turn of the century are within 3 years either way of the peak of that drought cycle. Round here the drought ended in 2003/4, just then nearly started again then kind of ended, buts its nearly back again till Christmas when we got rain, and the rest of NSw is far worse, till the recent flood out west, (that brought our christmas rain.)

That was an unusual rain event in that it was cause by a cyclone that crossed the coast at Broome and travelled all the way across the country, nearly 5000km, 700 of that as a cyclone I think, the rest as an intense low.

Without that who knows how bad it'd be out west now.

Or here for that matter cos we haven't had rain since and this is sposed to be the middle of the wet season.

Keep in mind it flooded in April.

This seems to be unusual by the standards of people who have lived here a long time. It certainly seems that way to me, but I haven't lived here as long as some of them. Its unusual in that although it flooded in aoril and has been very wet for 2 years previous it dried out very quickly, and by christmas we had our busiest fire season in years, and possibly in a decade of drought driven "busiest ever" fire seasons...

get that.

In the last 10 years we have had 2 or 3 years that were "busiest ever", according to people with up to 60 years experience in the area. Then this season till a week before christmas we were looking at what could turn out to be our busiest ever, and even by now, with 2 months to go, it seems like it going to be up there with those drought driven years. especially if it doesn't rain till april.

Only this year we are less that 12 months since we had flooding rains, and certainly aren't in the sort of drought we were in 6 to 8 years ago.

To me its a trend, this year is extreme, but its following the trend.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby tazmic » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:42 pm

After Climategate, Pachaurigate and Glaciergate: Amazongate

"AGW theory is toast. So’s Dr Rajendra Pachauri*. So’s the Stern Review. So’s the credibility of the IPCC. But if you think I’m cheered by this you’re very much mistaken. I’m trying to write a Climategate book but the way things are going by the time I’m finished there won’t be anything left to say: the battle will already have been won and the only people left who still believe in Man Made Global Warming will be the eco-loon equivalents of those wartime Japanese soldiers left abandoned and forgotten on remote Pacific atolls."

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100023598/after-climategate-pachaurigate-and-glaciergate-amazongate/

Whilst I don't agree with his conclusions...it's worth keeping up with the 'scandal' regarding the IPCC's “robust” “peer-reviewed” processes.

(*)
"It ever was, and is, and shall be, ever-living fire, in measures being kindled and in measures going out." - Heraclitus

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