"Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

[DrEvil]

Apparently Breivik didn't start shooting until around 1720. Can't find the source right now, but the gist of it was one of the kids on the island was talking to his mother on the phone when he heard the first shot, and according to his phone log that was at 1720.
Also - The police did know Breivik's name when they got to Utøya. Was it because of some big conspiracy involving the police? No, they traced the license plate from the bomb car in Oslo through surveillance tapes. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

[barracuda]

Links to either of those pieces of information would be very useful, Doctor.

[vanlose kid]

Apparently Breivik didn't start shooting until around 1720. Can't find the source right now, but the gist of it was one of the kids on the island was talking to his mother on the phone when he heard the first shot, and according to his phone log that was at 1720.
Also - The police did know Breivik's name when they got to Utøya. Was it because of some big conspiracy involving the police? No, they traced the license plate from the bomb car in Oslo through surveillance tapes. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

posted in the fiasco thread somewhere, but here it is:

Norwegian media have suggested police knew Breivik's identity before they reached the island, tracing him through a rental car firm from whom he hired a van in which the Oslo bomb was planted.

Dag Andre Johansen, Scandinavian chief executive of the Avis car rental company, told Associated Press that Breivik had rented two vehicles, including a Volkswagen van. Police contacted the company after the bombing and confirmed Breivik's identity. But Johansen declined to say whether that contact preceded Breivik's arrest on Utøya.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... est-norway

more here: http://www.maximumedge.com/cgi/news/art ... /D9OO016O0

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[DrEvil]

Yes, I know I'm looking..

Edit : Thanks for that vk. Stopped reading the other thread due to rage issues..

[vanlose kid]

Yes, I know I'm looking..

Edit : Thanks for that vk. Stopped reading the other thread due to rage issues..

you're welcome. think i posted it, or perhaps refrained from posting it, around the same time. my head was hurting by then.



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[DrEvil]

Here's the link to the timeline question.

http://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/article3198528.ece

it's in norwegian, but here's a rough translation of the relevant bits :

"I was talking on the phone with my mother at 17.20. While we were talking I heard the first shot and told mom that someone is shooting and that I had to hang up", says AUF-leader from Buskerud, Niclas Toskerud.

Tokerud says that he was in the cafeteria building when he heard the shots, which means he must have heard them from the beginning.

"From where I was standing it's impossible that I didn't hear the first shots", he says.

....

"From the three base stations we have around Utøya we can see that there was an increase in outgoing calls at around 17.30" (...), says spokesperson for Telenor, Knut Sollid.

Telenor is Norway's largest telecom btw.

The other one has already been linked by vk (about the cops knowing Breiviks name before the arrest).

[Canadian_watcher]

it's in norwegian, but here's a rough translation of the relevant bits :

[i]"I was talking on the phone with my mother at 17.20. While we were talking I heard the first shot and told mom that someone is shooting and that I had to hang up", says AUF-leader from Buskerud, Niclas Toskerud.

can you imagine what that poor mother must have gone through following that?!?!?!
(that is of course not to compare it to what her child went through, but it would be a nightmarish parenting moment)
sorry for the digression...

[barracuda]

Thanks, Doc. I'm more and more of the opinion that we may not possess a credibly accurate timeline by which to standardise the chronology of events.

[stickdog99]

My POV is not that there had to be some big conspiracy, but only that the cops fucked up and are lying through their teeth about it.

And anyone who goes to extreme lengths to justify the cops' indefensible delay simply to quell any suspicions about this event is pissing on the graves of the children who where brutally murdered during this delay, IMHO.

Well then your view could be stated in one post.

I also think you are misreading the intent of other posters on this thread.

If you start out at "the cops fucked up and are lying through their teeth about it" then what is the sense of going any further?
I understand that as an initial response. But that also leaves a lot unanswered.

But when you get to "pissing on the graves" - I dont know, that could easily be turned on to you and your insistance on placing blame on the cops.

I suppose. It's just my opinion on the subject.

[stickdog99]

My POV is not that there had to be some big conspiracy, but only that the cops fucked up and are lying through their teeth about it.

And anyone who goes to extreme lengths to justify the cops' indefensible delay simply to quell any suspicions about this event is pissing on the graves of the children who where brutally murdered during this delay, IMHO.

this is an overly dramatic statement (define "extreme lengths") and completely unfair. It seems to me that people are simply trying to arrive at the truth with the very little information out there. You, on the other hand, seem to have figured it all out and it is clearly the fault of the cops and their inability to get to a frickin' island quickly enough. and anyone who disagrees with you is an apologist for the cops.

Unless the 911 operators are actually the ones to blame, the local police lied about how long it took them to learn of the shootings. Then, according to their own timeline they took another 25 minutes to get across the shore from Utoya, and another 32 minutes after that to make the 600 meter journey from across the shore to Utoya to Utoya.

That is what the police themselves reported. So how is defending and justifying their actions "trying to arrive at the truth"?

If folks on this or the other thread would simply admit that the police fucked up and lied about, I wouldn't have anything more to say about the issue.

So would y'all like to admit it now? Or argue against it?

Or would you rather continue to take issue with me personally?

[barracuda]

Unless the 911 operators are actually the ones to blame, the local police lied about how long it took them to learn of the shootings. Then, according to their own timeline...

Do you have a link to an offical police timeline of the incident? Because as far as I know, there isn't one, unless you mean wikipedia.

We should create an editable timeline thread for this story, because a lot of the arguments seem to hinge upon matters of minutes.

[RobinDaHood]

An official timeline released on Sunday showed that local police got the first call about the shootings at 5: 26 p.m. (1526 GMT).

Gaasbakk said he got called in from a day off and arrived at Hoenefoss police station, which covers Utoya Island, at 5: 43 p.m., less than 20 minutes later.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Official+timeline+released/5170250/story.html
How do you tell the difference between a white-wash and an official revision to reflect the most accurate information?

[barracuda]

Why publish an article about the release of an official timeline without publishing either the timeline itself or a link to it? Bad, bad journalism.

[stickdog99]

Thanks, Doc. I'm more and more of the opinion that we may not possess a credibly accurate timeline by which to standardise the chronology of events.

What's fucked up about this is that twitter removed all the "as it was happening" tweets from their publicly available servers, so we cannot confirm when the first reports came out for ourselves. And now these subsequent "timelines" are shrouding the time of the initial shooting in a "fog of war."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14287822

Julie Bremnes, 16, was one of the youths caught on Utoeya island during Anders Behring Breivik's killing spree on Friday.

She first called her mother, Marianne, at 1710 to tell her there was "a crazy man who is shooting here" on the island. She asked her mother to call the police, and Marianne asked Julie to send her updates by text message to let her know she was still alive.

[stickdog99]

Laughable Lies

"On the way, the police boat had engine problems," he recounted. "But at the same time, private boats came towards us to say what was happening. We had them come over to us and requisitioned them."

Now, the police officers were travelling in two boats, both of them faster than the launch they had abandoned. According to one senior police officer, this meant that they got to the island "perhaps 10 minutes" earlier than they would otherwise have done.

So because they sunk the first boat, they got there 10 minutes faster? LOL. We are talking about a 600 meter journey here. The ferry makes a round trip in about 5 minutes including offloading and picking up its passengers.

"We could see the impact of bullets in the water at a point south of the island," he said. "There was constant gunfire."

Great that you took 33 minutes to make a 600 meter journey, then!

The five officers then arrived in a wooded area. "Suddenly, the shooter was in front of us, his hands in the air," said Gaasbakk.

Great that you took 33 minutes to make a 600 meter journey, then!