Gold.

[Joe Hillshoist]

For the record, I own almost no gold and a little silver. I also have a 16-month old baby, so I did everything wrong. I'm definitely long toilet paper though

Joe Hillshoist wrote:

(EDIT) Gold might actually be useful in an engineered collapse tho, but not in a total one, thats all. In a total one the stuff Marie mentions will be more useful cos you can use it. In that situation 10 ounces of gold is 10 ounces of dead weight you can't use for a whole lot, but still have to carry.

Yep. But once we enter "The Road" times, it might be better to die quickly anyway. Prior to that, prob a good idea to have a skill that's worth something to a community. I can tell a story with a smooth voice and lots of inflection. Other than that, I ain't got much.

Yeah i kind of agree. I never understood that American "Survivalist" thing except as a kind of psyop to drive wedges between people. Without a community (even if you have to build it from scratch) what is the point of surviving anything? Look if you have gold and think it'll help sure, by all means - just don't put your hopes in it.

Tho as far as "the Road times" - it so seems like West Africa is the road right now.

[Project Willow]

Yep. But once we enter "The Road" times, it might be better to die quickly anyway. Prior to that, prob a good idea to have a skill that's worth something to a community. I can tell a story with a smooth voice and lots of inflection. Other than that, I ain't got much.

I agree and I think you're right about about the pace bks. If for some reason we experience a sudden crash, all I want is enough go-fast in pill form to keep me from being a night's entertainment and then meat. A sudden change might almost be more merciful than the real likelihood, a long slow decline, which will only draw out the misery all the way through to a homeless wandering before an inevitable, dirty, desperate and lonely death, not unlike too many our births.

I've had a glimpse of how people really behave when survival is at stake. If you have a gun pointed at your head, everyone runs away from you. You cannot count on friends, you cannot count on anyone, except perhaps direct blood and only those who are emotionally and psychologically healthy, in theory anyway. If you have no direct blood, you are, well, as good as dead.

That's our species, woohoo!

Anyway, and I really mean it, good luck with the little one, bks, what a wonderful and beautiful time.

[bks]

Anyway, and I really mean it, good luck with the little one, bks, what a wonderful and beautiful time.

Thanks, PW! It has been wonderful squared.

[Stephen Morgan]

marie, actually the high density of gold is part of its appeal. you could easily fit several ounces of gold into various bodily orifices, or otherwise hide a fairly valuable amount of it in other ways, easily concealed. having once owned both gold and silver, the astonishingly huge difference in the two in terms of value per volume unit makes gold way more easy to deal with.

How easy will it be shaving off a hundredth of an ounce to pay for something? Or does your scheme rely on a massive decline in the value of gold? This is why gold is no longer used as currency, and hasn't been the main currency in this country since the sceattas came into circulation: there isn't enough gold about to run even the economy of seventh century England, so they expanded the money supply by minting silver instead.

oh, and stephen, if savings is illusory, can i have yours?

I've got massive savings all over the place, you know.

[Stephen Morgan]

Problem with matches, cocoa and sugar.

They all go stale eventually.

It is a fine line between just enough and too much.

Gold, FWIW, has a value to humans that transcends millenia.

So does copper. Right back to the chalcolithic. Of course for about two thousand years, more in fact, the concept of value in the Western world has been inextricably bound to the concept of "capable of being exchanged for cash money". Real money, legal tender, ready cash, and other things which are not characterised by shiny-shiny.

I agree with Nordic. None of us are like to have enough gold to get on the 'galt's gulch mystery tour', but it could be a game changer in a tight spot.

So could bread. Or something like tools, non-electric drills and so on, which can be parlayed into an income rather more easily than shiny metals, and the skills to use which can't be stolen.

[wintler2]

I can tell a story with a smooth voice and lots of inflection. Other than that, I ain't got much.

So you can provide entertainment that doesn't require mains power, in a community addicted to entertainment/delusions (tv, movie, shopping, driving..) and (likely to be) deprived of them. You could do just fine - how much can you remember of Days of our Lives?

[Joe Hillshoist]

Plus its how pre literate (and some post lit) cultures convey information.

[wintler2]

Plus its how pre literate (and some post lit) cultures convey information.

Right! So just encode the method for a tonsilectomy into a Days of our Lives episode recount and you'll be literally legendary

[Elihu]

i almost posted these in the earthquake thread. some interesting noise.

http://www.kitco.com/ind/willie/aug252011.html

my epigram guy.
http://www.321gold.com/editorials/thoms ... 82311.html

pan-dimensional shaking going on. the high priests of fake money are set to invocate on friday. should be interesting...

[Marie Laveau]

For the record, I own almost no gold and a little silver. I also have a 16-month old baby, so I did everything wrong. I'm definitely long toilet paper though

Joe Hillshoist wrote:

(EDIT) Gold might actually be useful in an engineered collapse tho, but not in a total one, thats all. In a total one the stuff Marie mentions will be more useful cos you can use it. In that situation 10 ounces of gold is 10 ounces of dead weight you can't use for a whole lot, but still have to carry.

Yep. But once we enter "The Road" times, it might be better to die quickly anyway. Prior to that, prob a good idea to have a skill that's worth something to a community. I can tell a story with a smooth voice and lots of inflection. Other than that, I ain't got much.

Oh, by the time we hit 'The Road' scenario nothing matters.

Tainter is very clear on the fact that collapse is a process, not an event

I know, but the difference between a "process" and an "event" can be several billion people with their easy support cut off due to a banking collapse. I hope for a "process," but can't deny an "event" is a very likely possibility in the cluster we've created.

[Marie Laveau]

Look, I'm not saying don't have gold (or silver) if you can afford it. I'm just saying the hype surrounding gold (and it's BIG) makes me a little queasy considering the hype we've seen around the stock market, beenie babies, and such. Ya know?

And the problem with people depending ONLY on gold is, when (or IF) TSHTF do you honestly think most people are going to be thinking, "GOLD!" Hell, no. They are going to be thinking, "FOOD!"

Although they probably won't be thinking, "FOOD!" for about twenty-four hours, more-or-less, so if you have gold and recognize the true collapse (probably banking and Wall Street) when it comes you can go load up on everything you need. Take a list. ;

Of course, everyone will probably be thinking the stock market will go back up tomorrow, or next week, so stores still won't be accepting gold for their wares, so you'll still have to sell your gold for cash.

The interesection of when everyone realizes this-is-it-for-reals AND when people start thinking, "FOOD!" AND when store owners are willing to take gold instead of cash is probably going to intersect.

I wouldn't want to be out in public with my list AND my gold at that time. Just FYI.

[gnosticheresy_2]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, proponents of PMs want a Goldilocks apocalypse, just enough collapse for paper money to be worthless but not enough so gold becomes worthless because you can't eat it or burn it.

In other news I just read this interesting counter-argument to the gold standard. Long article but really worth reading:

A Critique of Pure Gold

.....Hayek himself ultimately looked not to the gold standard but to the rise of private monies that might compete with the government’s own. Private issuers, he argued, would have an interest in keeping the purchasing power of their monies stable, for otherwise there would be no market for them. The central bank would then have no option but to do likewise, since private parties now had alternatives guaranteed to hold their value.

Abstract and idealistic, one might say. On the other hand, maybe the Tea Party should look for monetary salvation not to the gold standard but to private monies like Bitcoin.

Aside from any other objections, I don't think Bitcoin would be "patriotic" enough for the Tea Party

[chump]

Cryptogon had an article today about Hugo Chavez' very public announcement that he wants to transport the "211 tonnes" of gold, worth $12B that he has on reserve from Europe to Venezuela. What are the logistics of moving that much gold overseas?

I have no idea how it is ordinarily done, but if it were me (yeah, right!) I definitely would not move it all in one big trip, and I also wouldn't announce it to the world that I intended to do so.

Egh! But I would be wrong. Chavez's public announcement puts the spotlight on whether or not Barclays can physically deliver the gold they are obliged to deliver; and by depleteing the stock of physical gold available for delivery on the world market, he may be one of the primary reasons that gold went up. Pretty easy way to make a billion dollars - or beat up the dollar. Gold is the more stable asset by far.

So, what drove the price down? Well, perusing further I saw this from:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/08/ ... nghai.html

Gold Tanks Most Since March 2008 ... But Only Erases Two Weeks Worth of Gains
Gold tanked today, crashing $104 points.
That is the largest one-day crash since March 2008, erasing two weeks worth of gains.

Margin Requirements Hiked

Zero Hedge explains why gold tanked - margin requirements were hiked sky-high by two major exchanges:

Two weeks after the CME hiked gold margins by 22%, and two days after the Shanghai Gold Exchange sent them higher by 26%, here comes the CME, as we expected, with another 26% gold margin hike (previously: "Should we expect 3 more SGE margin hikes in the next 2 weeks? Or will the CME rightfully accept the baton and do everything in its power to dent the parabolic rise in the alternative reserve currency? We are cautiously looking at what the CME will do today and will advise readers."). And now we know that this particular margin hike was leaked well in advance, and explains the entire $100 plunge in gold today.

Ooooh. I am not an investor. BKS mentioned it briefly, but I didn't fully realize that a savvy tycoon could put down $9 to secure a position on $100 worth of gold. Of course there's a bubble! Would be correct to say that when Shanghai Gold Exchange and CME raised the reserve requirement to 12%, many (especially small) investors had to either come up with additional capital, or sell of some of their (paper) gold to cover their increased reserve requirement? Did the temporary glut on the market drive the price down - temporarily?

Another note: One would probably have to pay 100% + a premium for physical gold; as opposed to only having to come up with 12% of the value to secure a certificate for gold that is (supposedly) being stored in a Swiss vault. Is that Correct? I ain't buying, but I'm curious: Which is the better deal?
========
Also again: This from Ted TV was posted in it's own thread by Bruce in GD, but it is also relevant here. Reality is literally being constructed by Wall Street computer algorhythms.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/kevin ... world.html

"There 2000 physicists on Wall Street these days... "

[eyeno]

What will be interesting to see is if these gangsters actually give him 211 tons of gold that he rightfully owns. My bet is "no". But we will see.

[Nordic]

[marquee=][/marquee]But buying on thge margin can be done with anything, not just gold. Orange juice, pork bellies, wheat, cattle, oil, just about anything on the exchange.

The thing is, this will, in the case of gold and probably silver, drive the price higher, likely spectacularly higher, when it becomes clear that there isn't enough physical gold to cover all the bets.

That's why its pure gambling, mere speculation, to "buy" gold without physically owning it. I mean, possessing it is actually the entire point except for the gamblers, who are helping to drive the price up, especally when there's a lot of volatility.

It's not unlike the CDS disaster, what is looming in those markets, except the price will go up because physical real gold will suddenly be worth a lot more than paper gold. Those with paper gold will realize they own nothing.

If that's your definition of a bubble, so be it, but unlike other bubbles, the only popping sound will be with the fake stuff, not the real stuff.