Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

[MacCruiskeen]

I'm talking about the police, who disinformed CNN. You answer none of my questions, which are perfectly rational. What's deeply irrational is your suggesting that police had something to fear from a flying corpse.

[barracuda]

You have no idea what the police told the media and likely never will.

[MacCruiskeen]

Yes, I do have an idea. See above.

You have no idea how to explain why the police should have feared the flying corpse of a lone gunman, which you allege they did. Explain yourself, please. It is a perfectly serious point. If you can't answer it, please say so, rather than spreading smoke and clutching at straws.

[barracuda]

Hypothetically, what if...

- Adam had Ryan's ID as well as ID of his own that was found later?

What if...

- Capt. James Champion informed the police that Ryan lived in Hoboken?

What if...

- The police called Ernst and Young beforehand and verified that Ryan was at work?

What if...

- A search of the Lanza home quickly made it obvious that Adam was the body, and the brother was suspected of being an accomplice?

What if...

- The information released to the media was confusing or wrong?

What if...

- Some combination of the above.

What if...

- &c.

[MacCruiskeen]

What if...

- &c.

Indeed, "&c". You can go on what-iffing forever, just as you can envision anything you want, including winning the lottery. The question is: what relevance does all this what-iffing have, if any, to the known facts nearly six weeks after the massacre. Among those known facts are that the police let the media spread the rumour that Ryan Lanza dunnit, for hours on end, although he was obviously alive and well in Manhattan.

They also allowed his arrest in Hoboken in the late afternoon to be filmed by a gaggle of photographers.

What if...

- The police called Ernst and Young beforehand and verified that Ryan was at work?

Then they knew very quickly that he certainly wasn't the dead lone gunman in Newtown.

What if...

- A search of the Lanza home quickly made it obvious that Adam was the body, and the brother was suspected of being an accomplice?

They searched the house very shortly after the massacre. If it was quickly obvious that Adam was the dead gunman, then there is certainly even less explaining the endless bizarre rigmarole about that dead gunman's identity, no explaining the sensational misinformation about Ryan, and certainly no pressing reason to suspect Adam's brother of being a (dangerous!!) "accomplice" at a distance. (When has there ever been a distant "accomplice" to a lone killer "going postal"? I mean, according to the police? I'd be very surprised if you can supply even one single solitary example.)

Certainly the police had no reason to fear a flying corpse, as you still suggest they did.

What if...

- The information released to the media was confusing or wrong?

There's no question that it was. And grotesquely so. But with details about the family that only an informed insider could know.

I want an explanation of that. You just want to explain it away, apparently. ("Fog of war", "we can know nothing", quotes from c2w that it's all perfectly normal, nothing to see here, &c.) That's a pity.

-----------------------------------

I'd be grateful if we could both agree to be less combative about all this. Answering all that ^^ took time. It's neither a competition nor a duel. There is no disgrace in making a mistake, as long as it's quickly admitted. There is also no point in any of us trying to score debating points. It would be good if we could admit that the obviously-wrong is obviously-wrong, rather than winding each other up and wasting time.

The case is a mess. 28 people were massacred, most of them children. And the Lanza family has been destroyed. That's what we're talking about.

Anyway, goodnight.

[compared2what?]

Obviously they already thought he could be alive, or they wouldn't have stormed Ernst & Young.

I can't find a report of that happening anywhere except the Daily Mail.

[MacCruiskeen]

I get the increasingly strong impression that Ryan Lanza was lucky to get away with his life, and not because the police were pursuing a dangerous flying corpse or even a suspected "accomplice". I also get the increasingly strong impression that Adam and Nancy Lanza were simply less lucky than Ryan. Corpses can't be questioned, charged with crimes or brought to trial, nor do they have any rights at all. QED, whether there's 19 of them or only one.

That vile performance by Anderson "The Eel" Cooper looks increasingly like a vicious attempt to discourage all serious questions.

Thank god for Ernst&Young, and thank god for Facebook and Twitter! (I never thought I would say either of those things. But "life happens in detail", alright. As does death.)

[barracuda]

You can go on what-iffing forever, just as you can envision anything you want, including winning the lottery. The question is: what relevance does all this what-iffing have, if any, to the known facts nearly six weeks after the massacre. Among those known facts are that the police let the media spread the rumour that Ryan Lanza dunnit, for hours on end, although he was obviously alive and well in Manhattan.

Look, I'm trying to piece this thing together same as you. We're both reasoning on suppositions. But you seem to be under the impression that conjecture that doesn't point the way you want it to is somehow less valuable than your own. So much so that it frustrates you.

Here's a peace offering, another few morsels to add to your timeline:

Just before 2 p.m., county and city officers who obtained a search warrant entered the Hoboken apartment building as a crowd of media members and other onlookers gathered. They waited for federal agents, who swept the apartment with a remote-controlled device around 3 p.m.

“They were afraid of another incident like in Colorado, where the guy booby-trapped his apartment,” the law enforcement source told CLIFFVIEW PILOT.

The apartment was declared safe soon afterward, he said.

A short time earlier, officers grabbed Ryan Lanza, apparently as he rounded a corner toward his building, according to the source and reported here.

http://cliffviewpilot.com/conflicting-a ... onnection/

The article's not perfect - they mistakenly list his age as 27 - but at least it seems to be a local source, based in North Jersey. And it gives us some data points:

- Police arrived at 2:00

- Feds arrived at 3:00 with a bomb robot.

- Ryan arrived between 2 and 3 pm.

They also allowed his arrest in Hoboken in the late afternoon to be filmed by a gaggle of photographers.

So what time did Ryan leave work? Because if he got to the scene anytime after 2:00 there would be press there. How could you stop that from happening?

What if...

- The police called Ernst and Young beforehand and verified that Ryan was at work?

Then they knew very quickly that he certainly wasn't the dead lone gunman in Newtown.

But what did they know of his involvement? I have to say I feel this is central to their actions. His ID was found on the body. The need to take him into custody for questioning seems undeniable. They don't know the motive for the killings. They don't know what Ryan knows. So you question him, thoroughly. Search his apartment, thoroughly. Go through the computer. Interview neighbors. Who by the way are amicably chatting with the press, clearly.

no pressing reason to suspect Adam's brother of being a (dangerous!!) "accomplice" at a distance. (When has there ever been a distant "accomplice" to a lone killer "going postal"? I mean, according to the police? I'd be very surprised if you can supply even one single solitary example.)

Mass murders with an accomplice are usually profit motivated or political terrorism. But the cops don't know what happened. As far as we know, they still don't. And there's no denying that terror was visited on Newtown, and the feds are in Hoboken with a robot.

You just want to explain it away, apparently. ("Fog of war", "we can know nothing", quotes from c2w that it's all perfectly normal, nothing to see here, &c.) That's a pity.

As I said before in any other situation, you would accept the ineptitude of the press as a given. Why is this one different?

By the way, you better get used to the idea that you aren't gonna be privvy to first-hand information about the details of anonymous conversations between journalists and police sources. It won't be happening, right? There are gonna be details about why misinformation was relayed from the police insiders to the media that you will simply never know. That's not a conspiracy. That's confidentiality, and is pretty much the reporter's privilege, like it or not, for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness or in health, and so on.

And why is the perfectly reasonable assertion by c2w that mistakes in the first 24-48 hours are typical somehow less worth consideration than...

I get the increasingly strong impression that Ryan Lanza was lucky to get away with his life, and not because the police were pursuing a dangerous flying corpse or even a suspected "accomplice". I also get the increasingly strong impression that Adam and Nancy Lanza were simply less lucky than Ryan.

Are you conjecturing that Ryan Lanza was supposed to have died on the 14th? On what basis? I can't see this idea as anything but pure inventioneering. Not that anything's wrong with that. But why is it okay when you invent a scenario, but irrelevant when I do?

That was a rhetorical question. I know I can go on what-iffing forever, and you can go on pffft-ing my what-if's 'til kingdom come.

[compared2what?]

That vile performance by Anderson "The Eel" Cooper looks increasingly like a vicious attempt to discourage all serious questions.

My understanding was that it was the death threats to innocent people he was discouraging. However, I did not watch the report. It's just that I've got a problem with those myself. A serious problem. I'm very, very against them.

But as you know, that just means I discourage frank and open discourse.

Thank god for Ernst&Young, and thank god for Facebook and Twitter! (I never thought I would say either of those things. But "life happens in detail", alright. As does death.)

I will not thank god for Ernst & Young. There are limits.

Is this directed at me? BTW? I've had my eye on Ryan Lanza's abuse by the cops for six damn weeks already. I was the one who brought it up.

[lupercal]

I've had my eye on Ryan Lanza's abuse by the cops for six damn weeks already. I was the one who brought it up.

Oh baloney. Per advanced search, your first mention of Ryan Lanza was on page 19 of this thread, in a completely unrelated context, and your first mention in this context was last Tuesday, Jan. 22, in response to concerns raised by Mac, and surprise, you're defending "LE" and NBC, not they guy they slimed:

Subject: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Sample:

3. Ryan Lanza dunnit, and his younger brother was in police in custody as a possible accomplice.

Serial untruths.

It seems that they're both untrue. I don't know how serial they really are, though. Or how certainly attributable to law enforcement. Or how widely spread by them, if certainly attributable. I'll check.

Serial indeed. Now I'm sure you'll spend the next ten pages fulminating piteously about how misunderstood you are but the fact is you're confabulating in claiming to have first expressed sympathy for Ryan Lanza.

[8bitagent]

So this is it? This is how RI ends? A rapid downward spiral of name calling and low ball pejoratives over an old news story? I didn't even seen 1/20th this sort of bickering from the "bin Laden raid" story, which was a zillion times a bigger news story in the public eye.

[barracuda]

Not with a bang, but a bicker.

I blame lupercal myself for this.

[compared2what?]

I've had my eye on Ryan Lanza's abuse by the cops for six damn weeks already. I was the one who brought it up.

Oh baloney. Per advanced search, your first mention of Ryan Lanza was on page 19 of this thread, in a completely unrelated context, and your first mention in this context was last Tuesday, Jan. 22, in response to concerns raised by Mac, and surprise, you're defending "LE" and NBC, not they guy they slimed:

I didn't mean I'd been talking about it here for six weeks, just that I'd had my eye on it. And the thread did take its present direction after I remarked on it.

I first brought up Ryan Lanza's abuse by the cops here, and elaborated on it in increasing detail over the next several posts through to here:

He has cause of action because Connecticut state officials decided to let him know his brother, mother and/or father were dead by wrongly naming him as the killer of 20 small children to (and also in front of) the whole damn world. Plus the internet.

You know what? When you look at the context in which I brought it up, you may notice that you could have been just as sympathetic yourself if you'd stopped thinking about yourself for long enough to realize that notice they released about harassment wasn't about you. But no. It had to be a gag order aimed at truth-tellers.

Remember that thing I said about how there's more to empathy than feeling your own pain?

Well. That.

Subsequent to those posts, it's obviously manifestly been 100 percent a reflection of the industry and intelligence of Mac and barracuda, in case that needs saying. Which I guess it does since you seem to be under the impression that I was boasting, rather than making a simple, uncontroversial observation.

Subject: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Sample:

3. Ryan Lanza dunnit, and his younger brother was in police in custody as a possible accomplice.

Serial untruths.

It seems that they're both untrue. I don't know how serial they really are, though. Or how certainly attributable to law enforcement. Or how widely spread by them, if certainly attributable. I'll check.

Serial indeed. Now I'm sure you'll spend the next ten pages fulminating piteously about how misunderstood you are but the fact is you're confabulating in claiming to have first expressed sympathy for Ryan Lanza.

I don't see a defense of LE or NBC in there, though. Because there is none.

[compared2what?]

Serial indeed. Now I'm sure you'll spend the next ten pages fulminating piteously about how misunderstood you are but the fact is you're confabulating in claiming to have first expressed sympathy for Ryan Lanza.

What I actually said was that I had been the one who brought up his abuse by cops, not that I had been the first one to express sympathy for him.

However, just to be fair, as I perceived it, the first person to demonstrate a sympathetic awareness of how bad the shit Ryan Lanza had been exposed to had been was barracuda, here, way back on page 20.

But the reason I perceived it that way was mostly that I understood him to be posting that as a way of indirectly indicating what kind of shit Rodia was in danger of being exposed to. That point seemingly not having gotten through in the part of the thread that had just passed. Because I was disturbed by that myself.

He might have meant something else by it though. I don't really know.
_________________

Also, fwiw, Mac is always sympathetic to the underdog, and -- imo -- probably constitutionally incapable of being otherwise. His focus happens to have been elsewhere for most of the thread. But I do take it as granted that any thought he gave to Ryan Lanza was sympathetic, whether he said so or not.

[lupercal]

Not with a bang, but a bicker.

I blame lupercal myself for this.

Someone left the fake out in the rain. . .



oh nooooes. . . .