What constitutes Misogyny?

[brekin]

brekin wrote:
Oh, I don't doubt the validity of her feelings. Far from it. I know what she feels is real.
However her feelings don't solely determine the reality of the event and answer whether the Furnace Man
is a "sexist prick". That was what we were discussing.

barracuda wrote:
I understand. However, I learned long ago that in the context of a person's experience of abuse or disrespect, that unless I was there as a witness to the event, my hypothetical interpretations of what may have been the case add very little to anyone's understanding of their feelings of having been abused. So I routinely accept such a narrative as within the scope of the teller's reality and proceed from there with my understanding of it. It's called sympathy.

Canadian_Watcher herself wasn't sure if the Furnace Man was acting out of misogamy. She provided the experience and put it out to be examined if it was or not in a thread titled "What constitutes Misogyny?" Many thought probably not. An argument could be made that the Furnace Man was disrespected. (No hi, hello, just "You must be Ben. Can you tell me why you are late?") and a few people were giving that viewpoint.

barracuda do not tell me you are all about people's feelings now and try to teach my about sympathy. I was more sympathetic to the Furnace man from the narrative that was supplied and didn't immediately jump to the conclusion he was a "sexist prick" who can only talk to the husbands. Or should I just have condemned him to
assuage someone's feelings?

When I was sympathetic to C_W posting her experience being assaulted and did't think it was good time to do so, (remember I didn't say she shouldn't ever, etc, just at that point she was doing so out of spite.) I'm suddenly too sympathetic and am trying to "protect" people.

Quote:
The Furnace man could be doing more for women's rights then anyone in this thread. We don't know.

barracuda wrote:
Sure, he may have been the avatar of Vishnu, or a member of the secret police, but such conjecture offers almost nothing in the form of relating to canadian_watcher's experience of the event. Probably less than nothing.

Hardly. Tell me barracuda do you think Furnace Man is a sexist prick? I would like to believe he is sympathetic
or at least neutral to women's rights. Thinking he may do something active is not a stretch. I would rather
believe he is so then a sexist prick. But what do you think? Is he a sexist prick?

Quote:
It's as if you don't even share a common vocabulary with her.
brekin wrote:

Bingo!!! We have a winner.

barracuda wrote:
And it's you fault.

Yes. It is all my fault.
Because I wouldn't stretch a bad customer experience to fit a grander narrative.
Sorry, blame my mother. She read me fairy tales but told me not to believe them.

[Peregrine]

(remember I didn't say she shouldn't ever, etc, just at that point she was doing so out of spite.)

Not trying to deride you & yeah, perhaps C_W got a little hot under the collar (I know I sure do with issues that I feel strongly about) but what makes you think she did it out of spite?

[barracuda]

barracuda do not tell me you are all about people's feelings now and try to teach my about sympathy.

Hey, man - just trying to help you out.

Tell me barracuda do you think Furnace Man is a sexist prick? I would like to believe he is sympathetic
or at least neutral to women's rights. Thinking he may do something active is not a stretch. I would rather
believe he is so then a sexist prick. But what do you think? Is he a sexist prick?

My own experience with furnace men is that they are not usually among the most enlightened individuals with regards to their view of women as personally empowered and fully possessed individuals. That is, as a group, I wouldn't rank furnace men near the top percentile of the most sympathetic individuals to issues involving women's rights and misogyny. As such, I am perfectly willing to take it on faith that his behavior was disrespectful to canadian_watcher, and proceed from there with my analysis of her narrative.

Yes. It is all my fault.
Because I wouldn't stretch a bad customer experience to fit a grander narrative.

You are partially correct about that. At least you're taking some of the responsibility now. It's a process.

Sorry, blame my mother. She read me fairy tales but told me not to believe them.

I see - mother issues. Well that explains something.

[brekin]

peregrine wrote:

brekin wrote:

(remember I didn't say she shouldn't ever, etc, just at that point she was doing so out of spite.)

Not trying to deride you & yeah, perhaps C_W got a little hot under the collar (I know I sure do with issues that I feel strongly about) but what makes you think she did it out of spite?

Her abandonment of the Furnace Man topic, her angry comments immediately before, who she addressed it to and how she capped it.

C_W wrote:

Okay all you lovers of me,
Here's another real life experience:

analyze that. let's see what you're made of.

barracuda wrote:

Hey, man - just trying to help you out.

Yeah, and since it's "all my fault" you are really modeling the sympathy
for me. You are a great teacher barracuda.

My own experience with furnace men is that they are not usually among the most enlightened individuals with regards to their view of women as personally empowered and fully possessed individuals. That is, as a group, I wouldn't rank furnace men near the top percentile of the most sympathetic individuals to issues involving women's rights and misogyny. As such, I am perfectly willing to take it on faith that his behavior was disrespectful to canadian_watcher, and proceed from there with my analysis of her narrative.

That was quite the tap dance. But you didn't answer the question. Maybe he was disrespectful, maybe not. Do you think he was a sexist prick?

Quote:
Yes. It is all my fault.
Because I wouldn't stretch a bad customer experience to fit a grander narrative.

barracuda wrote:
You are partially correct about that. At least you're taking some of the responsibility now. It's a process.

Interesting. So I'm not all at fault in your estimation. Help me with the process. I'm curious barracuda, is Canadian_Watcher at all at fault for not sharing a common vocabulary?

Quote:
Sorry, blame my mother. She read me fairy tales but told me not to believe them.

barracuda wrote:
I see - mother issues. Well that explains something.

Its funny because when I typed that, like bad puns, cliche responses come to mind.
But I dismissed it. I thought no one would go there for the sake of a snarky point.
But I see I was wrong. Is this part of the process?

[barracuda]

Do you think he was a sexist prick?

Yes.

Interesting. So I'm not all at fault in your estimation. Help me with the process. I'm curious barracuda, is Canadian_Watcher at all at fault for not sharing a common vocabulary?

No.

Its funny because when I typed that, like bad puns, cliche responses come to mind.
But I dismissed it. I thought no one would go there for the sake of a snarky point.
But I see I was wrong. Is this part of the process?

Yes, you poor thing.

[Peregrine]

Well, I wouldn't say she abandoned the furnace man example, I feel it's quite relevant to the topic at hand & she then proceeded to provide another example. I certainly didn't see it out of spite, though & totally get where she's coming from. And yeah "is your husband here" thing strikes me as someone who assumed the lady of the house didn't handle such matters, therefore he's got some ingrained ideas about women. Just my two bits in that regard, because as stated, I've worked in an industry full of tradesmen & their misogynistic opinions are a dime a dosen.

[brekin]

brekin wrote:
Do you think he was a sexist prick?

barracuda wrote:
Yes.

Has everyone lost their mind??!?!?

Quote:
Interesting. So I'm not all at fault in your estimation. Help me with the process. I'm curious barracuda, is Canadian_Watcher at all at fault for not sharing a common vocabulary?

barracuda wrote:
No.

YES. Everyone has.



Quote:

Its funny because when I typed that, like bad puns, cliche responses come to mind.
But I dismissed it. I thought no one would go there for the sake of a snarky point.
But I see I was wrong. Is this part of the process?

barracuda wrote:
Yes, you poor thing.

Must stay awake. Must stay awake. Must stay awake.

[Project Willow]

If I feel disrespected by someone that is my truth.

In the context of this thread, Brekin, one essential path to the answer of the OP is learning, or accepting and respecting, what is true for women about how they experience the world, according to their own assessments, not according yours, or any other man's.

The fact that you challenged C_W on her interpretation of her experience with furnace man represents to me an inherently disrespectful response. That you have followed up complaints about your challenge with statements such as it was for her own good, are examples of paternalistic sexism and are themselves answers to the OP. The same applies to your assumptions about her motivation for posting her experience of assault. As a woman, my truth is informed by a life time of experiences that range in severity, between and beyond, experiences similar to the two C_W shared. According to what I've read and heard from most other women, the same holds true for them also. C_W's sharing those two examples together provided important context for further discussion which, again, spoke directly in answer to the OP.

It's really rather simple after all, if you wish to understand what constitutes misogyny, and you're not a woman, then listen to and respect what women tell you is their truth about being a woman in this world.

(Looking at the posts that popped up before I was able to finish this one inspires me to encourage you, brekin, to hook up with Searcher08, I think you have an affinity for one another.)

[Stephen Morgan]

Stephen.

I don't even know what your situation is, how can I have empathy? That's why I say don't let me stop you being more specific.

Um, I was pretty specific back on page 55.

Sorry, don't think I read that page.

I got a third less pay specifically because the owner of the company doesn't think women belong in the construction industry. He thinks, & has stated to my face that we are physically weaker than the blokes. Yet here I was busting my ass, trying to prove a point that yes I was working a hell of a lot harder than the pooch-screwing schlub dragging his feet, yet, he gets paid more because the boss has predetermined that I don't do a good enough job specifically because of my gender.

I'm really curious about your point of view on this.

Well I also don't think women are generally suited to construction work due to being physically flimsier, both through nature and nurture, but that doesn't rule out individual women being well-suited to the job. On the other hand once you've hired someone to do a job you've accepted their competence and should pay them properly. So I think you should've had recourse to an employment tribunal.I don't know where you are or what the law is but paying a different wage based on sex is illegal in most places. Even the threat might have extracted some more money for you, but might also have lost you some respect for getting money without, in their eyes, earning it, or for trying to get someone else to fight your battles for you. To me, though, money is worth more than respect.

Also, this:

The next time I was threatened, after that, there were these two lads, each bigger than me, who were chiding me as I walked alone along the street, for my flowing hippy-style locks. So I charged at them like a fucking maniac. If they had been karate masters revelling in their physical strength and superiority I would have been in trouble, but they were just a couple of idiots demonstrating their psychological weaknesses by picking on someone smaller on his own, so they took off like a couple of scalded cats and easily outpaced me.

I have to admit, I like you a whole lot & enjoy your posts (except, of course, I don't agree with the ones on women's issues).

You sometimes agree with the ones on women's issues. I seem to remember a thread about the banning of topless bars in Iceland in which we agreed on a more permissive approach, while most people were applauding the Icelandic government for what was supposedly a move in favour of women. Wonder what happened with that.

I'm sorry you had to go through such a frightening ordeal.

I wasn't frightened. The first time I was quite upset. Just stood and got hit until they got tired and fucked off. When I was chasing those hoodlums and they were disappearing into the distance I was quite pleased. It's nice being feared, being triumphant.

And in all silliness, I'm kinda enjoying the image of a burly looking bloke with long hair & beard charging like a maniac. Makes me blush. However, do you think the blokes would have reacted the same had you been female?

Difficult to say. As soon as I moved they were off, and they were each several inches taller than me, although somewhat flimsily put together. Typical youths, slicked back hair, hoodies, trainers, spotty little oiks. On the other hand they would probably have just left a woman alone. I was just watching a video in which a spokesman from the police federation said criminals just don't attack WPCs like they do male constables.

[Canadian_watcher]

okay, I like this, there's some good stuff to work with here:

Well I also don't think women are generally suited to construction work due to being physically flimsier, both through nature and nurture...

Excellent point about the nature & nurture thing. A lot of people disagree with me that nurture can actually affect a woman's 'flimsiness.' Still in construction there are jobs that even fairly flimsy people can excel at - not everything is about carrying heavy stuff.

but that doesn't rule out individual women being well-suited to the job.

This gives me a good chance to bring up something else you might get a chance to agree with me on: I disagree that there should ever be a different set of requirements for a job for males and for females. Sometimes the tests themselves might need to be modified, but not so that they allow women in, only so that they are up to date and take into account the changing demands of different jobs.

On the other hand once you've hired someone to do a job you've accepted their competence and should pay them properly. So I think you should've had recourse to an employment tribunal. I don't know where you are or what the law is but paying a different wage based on sex is illegal in most places. Even the threat might have extracted some more money for you, but might also have lost you some respect for getting money without, in their eyes, earning it, or for trying to get someone else to fight your battles for you. To me, though, money is worth more than respect.

See now I see this as a problem facing more women than men, which would mean a degree of anti-female sexism is inherent in certain lines of work. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. I can't think of an industry where this might apply to males.

[brekin]

Project Willow wrote:

In the context of this thread, Brekin, one essential path to the answer of the OP is learning, or accepting and respecting, what is true for women about how they experience the world, according to their own assessments, not according yours, or any other man's.

So, tell me. A man cannot question a woman's experience of this world if it relates in any way with what they perceive as misogynistic? Is that what you are saying? Do you see how that will limit free expression and close off basically any topic in which a woman may choose to see as relating? I accepted and respected C_W's assessment. I didn't agree with it. Yes, I believe she felt a certain way and I don't take issue with that, but whether he is a "sexist prick" is what is at stake, something that can ruin someones reputation, employment, etc.

The fact that you challenged C_W on her interpretation of her experience with furnace man represents to me an inherently disrespectful response.

It is inherently disrespectful to challenge someone's interpretation of what they thought might have been misogynistic? Really? What about the Furnace Man? Who speaks for him? Why did she post it if she couldn't handle any analysis that didn't agree with hers? We are here to judge, debate and analysize which I did with respect. She put it out there as whether it was misogynistic or not. Why ask the question if there is only one (approved) answer?

That you have followed up complaints about your challenge with statements such as it was for her own good, are examples of paternalistic sexism and are themselves answers to the OP.

Quote me where I say that. Quote it.

The same applies to your assumptions about her motivation for posting her experience of assault. As a woman, my truth is informed by a life time of experiences that range in severity, between and beyond, experiences similar to the two C_W shared. According to what I've read and heard from most other women, the same holds true for them also. C_W's sharing those two examples together provided important context for further discussion which, again, spoke directly in answer to the OP.

Look, read the thread. Look at the timestamps and her replies and when she posted that and how. I'm just
being honest. I know it doesn't fit with the agenda but its what happened.

It's really rather simple after all, if you wish to understand what constitutes misogyny, and you're not a woman, then listen to and respect what women tell you is their truth about being a woman in this world.

Project Willow, you know much of what creates misogyny stems from lack of respect, seeing a certain group as other and inferior, trying to enforce ones power over another, believing ones feelings being more important then others, believing because others are some how bad one has the permission to mistreat them, etc.. These aren't things isolated in misogyny but that manifest in them. They are practiced by others for various purposes and to not think the other gender has experienced this is pure folly. Just because one has suffered doesn't mean others haven't and one isn't capable of causing similar pain to others.

(Looking at the posts that popped up before I was able to finish this one inspires me to encourage you, brekin, to hook up with Searcher08, I think you have an affinity for one another.)

Thanks, that to really adds to the discussion.

[Peregrine]

Well I also don't think women are generally suited to construction work due to being physically flimsier, both through nature and nurture, but that doesn't rule out individual women being well-suited to the job.

I knew you would say that....

On the other hand once you've hired someone to do a job you've accepted their competence and should pay them properly. So I think you should've had recourse to an employment tribunal.

Looking back I wish I had pursued a legal recourse, but I felt a little like David going up against goliath. Now I most certainly would have.

I don't know where you are or what the law is but paying a different wage based on sex is illegal in most places.

I do believe it is. However, it's proving that they are doing that, that becomes the issue. I don't think I would have been able to prove it, plus I don't think I would have garnered much sympathy from fellow workers that were contributing to the problem.

Even the threat might have extracted some more money for you, but might also have lost you some respect for getting money without, in their eyes, earning it, or for trying to get someone else to fight your battles for you. To me, though, money is worth more than respect.

I think it would have been more of "that damn pot-stirring politically correct wimin's libber rocking the boat" sort of deal. Now I wouldn't bat an eye in considering doing that.

You sometimes agree with the ones on women's issues. I seem to remember a thread about the banning of topless bars in Iceland in which we agreed on a more permissive approach, while most people were applauding the Icelandic government for what was supposedly a move in favour of women. Wonder what happened with that.

Ah, yes, I do remember that & actually thought about that topic the other day. Apologies I didn't mention that one...

It's nice being feared, being triumphant.

In a situation like that, I would really like to know how that feels, instead of instinctively gripping my house keys between my clenched fist & being nervous of being jumped from behind while i walk the block from the bus stop to my home late at night.

Difficult to say... On the other hand they would probably have just left a woman alone...

Those two particular blokes may have left the woman alone, but what about a couple of cowards that specifically like to pick on the single gals walking alone? I'm betting if it were a woman being taunted like that, her charging like a maniac wouldn't garner the same reaction.

[Canadian_watcher]

That you have followed up complaints about your challenge with statements such as it was for her own good, are examples of paternalistic sexism and are themselves answers to the OP.

Quote me where I say that. Quote it.

You want PW to quote it back to you, too? I already did that, three times. Here they all are again:

From page 62

In all earnestness I don't think you should be posting this right now in relation to this thread.
It doesn't have anything to do with what we were just talking about and I think you are posting
this out of place that isn't going to be good for anyone. I thinking sharing something like this in
this way just isn't what maybe could be good for you right now.

I'm less concerned about what others think or their reaction to this but where you are coming from right now
for your sake.

From page 63

Ithink what you went through is horrible and has affected you deeply.
We have left the area of the Furnace man.
I hope you are able to talk to someone about this. Not because you need to be "fixed" or
because it is anything you did but for your own sake. I just don't think
here is that place.

It is very relevant to Misogyny, but after the back and forth in this thread I don't think
it is prudent to share something so personal and deep with some people on this thread.

from page 63:

I'm glad for you that you can speak about such things, but frankly (and I'll shut up about this now)
once you start bringing in personal revelations into a thread with a lot of hostile people to you, simply
no good can come from it. You won't humble or enlighten those who are hostile and you run the risk of
alienating those who would otherwise want to way in.

See it yet? PATERNALISTIC

[Peregrine]

not everything is about carrying heavy stuff.

Heh. I think I did pretty good. When I had gotten accustomed to physical labor, I could pack on my shoulder 18 to 20 foot 4x6's that had been soaking in the rain no problem...

Plus I could fit in spaces where the big surly blokes couldn't get to.

[Canadian_watcher]

not everything is about carrying heavy stuff.

Heh. I think I did pretty good. When I had gotten accustomed to physical labor, I could pack on my shoulder 18 to 20 foot 4x6's that had been soaking in the rain no problem...

Plus I could fit in spaces where the big surly blokes couldn't get to.

It's good to be strong, isn't it? I didn't work construction officially, but there was a time when I was doing home renovations full time - as an investment. For years now I've had much more sedentary work, and it shows on me. Why I'm still recovering from picking up a bag of leaves, if you can believe that. 3 weeks ago and I still can't bend my left hip properly.

Your point about fitting into the tight spaces.. just one of the many reasons it hurts businesses to have a stereotype in mind when hiring.