What constitutes Misogyny?

[brekin]

Canadian_Watcher wrote:

brekin wrote:

Project Willow wrote:
That you have followed up complaints about your challenge with statements such as it was for her own good, are examples of paternalistic sexism and are themselves answers to the OP.

Quote me where I say that. Quote it.

You want PW to quote it back to you, too? I already did that, three times. Here they all are again:

From page 62

brekin wrote:
In all earnestness I don't think you should be posting this right now in relation to this thread.
It doesn't have anything to do with what we were just talking about and I think you are posting
this out of place that isn't going to be good for anyone. I thinking sharing something like this in
this way just isn't what maybe could be good for you right now.

I'm less concerned about what others think or their reaction to this but where you are coming from right now
for your sake.

From page 63

brekin wrote:
Ithink what you went through is horrible and has affected you deeply.
We have left the area of the Furnace man.
I hope you are able to talk to someone about this. Not because you need to be "fixed" or
because it is anything you did but for your own sake. I just don't think
here is that place.

It is very relevant to Misogyny, but after the back and forth in this thread I don't think
it is prudent to share something so personal and deep with some people on this thread.

from page 63:

brekin wrote:
I'm glad for you that you can speak about such things, but frankly (and I'll shut up about this now)
once you start bringing in personal revelations into a thread with a lot of hostile people to you, simply
no good can come from it. You won't humble or enlighten those who are hostile and you run the risk of
alienating those who would otherwise want to way in.

See it yet? PATERNALISTIC

My counsel was based honestly more on mental health concerns. I was advising you because I
thought it wasn't a good idea for your immediate mental health or the overall discussion. What gives me the right to do that? Well when someone, of either gender, exposes something very personal and traumatic from their past in the middle of a flame war in a defiant way I would feel bad if I didn't say something. Everything you quoted above I believe bears that out. For example, if this was a thread about gay-bashing and someone did something similar I would do the same.

What gives me the right to judge your mental state at the time? Your actions.

Maybe you did it in a totally relaxed state with no sense of animosity to those who challenged you earlier. That's not how I read it and I felt compelled to do something. Does that make me paternalistic? I think it makes me caring. Did I think I knew better then you at that moment what the course of action should be?
Yes. I offered my advice as an equal. You chose not to take it.

I don't understand how I can be paternalistic to you because I have no power over you. If I disagree, or offer advice, I'm doing so as an equal. Even if I tried to be paternalistic and told you to do something you are under no compulsion to do so.

It seems like the main theme boils down to is this:

Because I'm a man I'm not allowed to judge your actions.

[Peregrine]

It's good to be strong, isn't it? I didn't work construction officially, but there was a time when I was doing home renovations full time - as an investment. For years now I've had much more sedentary work, and it shows on me. Why I'm still recovering from picking up a bag of leaves, if you can believe that. 3 weeks ago and I still can't bend my left hip properly.

Funny you mention that about your hip, as I have had trouble with my right hip. After having my kiddo, my body is not as strong physically because when my hips did that little "adjusting" thing during my third trimester, the right hip never "adjusted" back into place. It doesn't hurt as much as it first did, but it was terribly painful & I was off work longer than I wanted to be.

Your point about fitting into the tight spaces.. just one of the many reasons it hurts businesses to have a stereotype in mind when hiring.

Ain't that the truth. And although that company is still kicking, they aren't that lucrative anymore. They lost a lot of good workers (including me) & they quality work is severely lacking.

[Peregrine]

My counsel was based honestly more on mental health concerns. I was advising you because I
thought it wasn't a good idea for your immediate mental health or the overall discussion..... What gives me the right to judge your mental state at the time? Your actions.

While I didn't read into it as paternalistic, I do find it really funny that you are questioning her mental health. Because someone (whether it a man or a woman) gets angry about something & shares a really personal experience, their mental health is brought into question? really? I've seen lots of folks get real mad on here but don't remember their mental health being questioned....

[Project Willow]

So, tell me. A man cannot question a woman's experience of this world if it relates in any way with what they perceive as misogynistic?

Obviously a man can do whatever a man can do, but I am also able to consider a man a disrespectful jerk if he does certain things. IOW, as the objects of misogyny, women, not men, should be held as the ultimate authorities on how misogyny affects them. The other assumption that your question implies, that there exists somewhere some objective truth as to whether any particular exchange can be determined to be misogynistic, and that this objective truth can only be discovered by some sort of committee process involving both sexes again, inherently disrespects the unique position of women. We've visited related questions already in this thread, and perhaps we should visit them again.

Do you see how that will limit free expression and close off basically any topic in which a woman may choose to see as relating?

False conclusion there, see above.

I accepted and respected C_W's assessment. I didn't agree with it. Yes, I believe she felt a certain way and I don't take issue with that, but whether he is a "sexist prick" is what is at stake, something that can ruin someones reputation, employment, etc.

I don't agree with you, I did not see you accepting or respecting C_W's assessment, and so we are stuck here in a he-said she-said. Again, the entire thrust of this thread is to examine misogyny, so to disregard how C_W felt about furnace man is antithetical to our purpose here. Furthermore, that you would elevate the needs and cares of unknown furnace man versus C_W's is something else I view as sexist, especially in light of the context.

It is inherently disrespectful to challenge someone's interpretation of what they thought might have been misogynistic? Really?

Yep, in this context, in this scenario.

What about the Furnace Man? Who speaks for him? Why did she post it if she couldn't handle any analysis that didn't agree with hers? We are here to judge, debate and analysize which I did with respect. She put it out there as whether it was misogynistic or not. Why ask the question if there is only one (approved) answer?

The entire f'n drum-beating, raping, pillaging, profiteering, warring, male-run world speaks for furnace man. I didn't see C_W as asking a question, I saw her as sharing an experience in answer to the OP.

Quote me where I say that. Quote it.

Here ya go, brekin said: "I was not in your words trying to "protect you", but advising you for your own benefit, and others, that I don't think this was the way or time to choose to share this." here: http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?p=396843#p396843 (edit: C_W did a way better job!)

Look, read the thread. Look at the timestamps and her replies and when she posted that and how. I'm just
being honest. I know it doesn't fit with the agenda but its what happened.

Again, ye are mistaken.

Project Willow, you know much of what creates misogyny stems from lack of respect, seeing a certain group as other and inferior, trying to enforce ones power over another, believing ones feelings being more important then others, believing because others are some how bad one has the permission to mistreat them, etc.. These aren't things isolated in misogyny but that manifest in them. They are practiced by others for various purposes and to not think the other gender has experienced this is pure folly. Just because one has suffered doesn't mean others haven't and one isn't capable of causing similar pain to others.

First of all, no one here is suggesting men don't experience x, y, or z, or that no people other than women have suffered (WTH?) but this thread is not about men (for the zillionth time), it's about misogyny which affects women. Since encounters with misogyny are nearly daily experiences for women, then we're talking about a system of disrespect which we are trying to delineate. So the question really is, what is blocking you, brekin, you personally, from hearing when women say they experience disrespect connected to their being female?

[brekin]

I'm done for the day and have to go. I think people know where
I stand. Remember to say a prayer for the furnace man.

[Project Willow]

I'm done for the day and have to go. I think people know where
I stand.

Here's where I stand...

Remember to say a prayer for the furnace man.

Asshole.

[Peregrine]

I'm done for the day and have to go. I think people know where
I stand. Remember to say a prayer for the furnace man.

And, uh, folks, please ease up on the name calling.

[Project Willow]

And, uh, folks, please ease up on the name calling.

Ms. mod., you're lucky I have Morgan on ignore.

[Canadian_watcher]

My counsel was based honestly more on mental health concerns. I was advising you because I
thought it wasn't a good idea for your immediate mental health or the overall discussion..... What gives me the right to judge your mental state at the time? Your actions.

While I didn't read into it as paternalistic, I do find it really funny that you are questioning her mental health. Because someone (whether it a man or a woman) gets angry about something & shares a really personal experience, their mental health is brought into question? really? I've seen lots of folks get real mad on here but don't remember their mental health being questioned....

It's a common tactic among certain personality types to bully someone to the point of them getting upset and then feigning concern about their state of mind.

I would maintain that his statements were paternalistic, fitting this definition from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosphy:

Paternalism is the interference of a state or an individual with another person, against their will, and defended or motivated by a claim that the person interfered with will be better off or protected from harm.

I don't attribute unkind motivations to brekin's paternalism, but I do think it is amazing that he cannot see examples of it.

[WakeUpAndLive]

So, tell me. A man cannot question a woman's experience of this world if it relates in any way with what they perceive as misogynistic?

Obviously a man can do whatever a man can do, but I am also able to consider a man a disrespectful jerk if he does certain things. IOW, as the objects of misogyny, women, not men, should be held as the ultimate authorities on how misogyny affects them. The other assumption that your question implies, that there exists somewhere some objective truth as to whether any particular exchange can be determined to be misogynistic, and that this objective truth can only be discovered by some sort of committee process involving both sexes again, inherently disrespects the unique position of women. We've visited related questions already in this thread, and perhaps we should visit them again.

Project Willow, you know much of what creates misogyny stems from lack of respect, seeing a certain group as other and inferior, trying to enforce ones power over another, believing ones feelings being more important then others, believing because others are some how bad one has the permission to mistreat them, etc.. These aren't things isolated in misogyny but that manifest in them. They are practiced by others for various purposes and to not think the other gender has experienced this is pure folly. Just because one has suffered doesn't mean others haven't and one isn't capable of causing similar pain to others.

First of all, no one here is suggesting men don't experience x, y, or z, or that no people other than women have suffered (WTH?) but this thread is not about men (for the zillionth time), it's about misogyny which affects women. Since encounters with misogyny are nearly daily experiences for women, then we're talking about a system of disrespect which we are trying to delineate. So the question really is, what is blocking you, brekin, you personally, from hearing when women say they experience disrespect connected to their being female?

You ask for ultimate authority on the subject due to experience with misogyny, yet at the end of your argument you state that almost all beings experience similar events in their life, just in different context. At least it doesn't make men feel unheard in this scenario (which I believe is one of the constituents of misogyny)


It has been said before in this thread and said again, it is all about power....I don't feel that women should hold an ultimate authority on what constitutes misogyny, not only because males experience similar scenarios, but because it then gives females a similar power they were complaining about men having.


It is all about perspective, and right now I'm not sure anyone on this board has the proper perspective. There is a balance that both sides seem to be missing upon.




And C_W, I will just ask if any positive thought can be garnered about misogyny based on your persistent posts in regards to brekin (specifically the responses that comment on his actions in this thread and not on his ideas about misogyny)?

[Stephen Morgan]

okay, I like this, there's some good stuff to work with here:

Well I also don't think women are generally suited to construction work due to being physically flimsier, both through nature and nurture...

Excellent point about the nature & nurture thing. A lot of people disagree with me that nurture can actually affect a woman's 'flimsiness.' Still in construction there are jobs that even fairly flimsy people can excel at - not everything is about carrying heavy stuff.

Nature and nurture work together. Through the application of enough will power you can fundamentally alter your body, even at a genetic level with great physical stress and adaptation changing epigenetic factors. On the other hand women are more likely to have their natural physical flimsiness worsened by their natural mental leanings, against extreme physical exertion and that sort of thing.

but that doesn't rule out individual women being well-suited to the job.

This gives me a good chance to bring up something else you might get a chance to agree with me on: I disagree that there should ever be a different set of requirements for a job for males and for females. Sometimes the tests themselves might need to be modified, but not so that they allow women in, only so that they are up to date and take into account the changing demands of different jobs.

I agree with that. What needs to be done in a job is what needs to be done, and any entrance examinations ought to test for ability to do just that.

On the other hand once you've hired someone to do a job you've accepted their competence and should pay them properly. So I think you should've had recourse to an employment tribunal. I don't know where you are or what the law is but paying a different wage based on sex is illegal in most places. Even the threat might have extracted some more money for you, but might also have lost you some respect for getting money without, in their eyes, earning it, or for trying to get someone else to fight your battles for you. To me, though, money is worth more than respect.

See now I see this as a problem facing more women than men, which would mean a degree of anti-female sexism is inherent in certain lines of work. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. I can't think of an industry where this might apply to males.

Well, it's a problem with anyone going to employment tribunals, any trouble makers. If there are lines of work, and I don't accept this, where women are institutionally paid less for the same sort work, that would put them in the position of cause trouble or not causing trouble. There are no similar lines of work for men because professions dominated by women will commonly simply refuse to ever hire men, rather than recruiting them on lower wages. I and other people I've encountered have experienced this in trying to work as carers, any work with children, certain office jobs and so on.

It's nice being feared, being triumphant.

In a situation like that, I would really like to know how that feels, instead of instinctively gripping my house keys between my clenched fist & being nervous of being jumped from behind while i walk the block from the bus stop to my home late at night.

I was quite amused. I wasn't actually maniacal, after all, I was just presenting that image. I walked away with a wry smile on my face, after they'd disappeared around the corner.

If you want to try it, run at someone swinging a golf club and ululating wildly. Not that I recommend that sort of thing, but the key is convincing people that you're best avoided. I'm not a particularly intimidating bloke. I've heard men talk about walking past lone women at night and the women cower away from them just because they're walking past each other in a dark alley. Never happens to me.

It's good to be strong, isn't it? I didn't work construction officially, but there was a time when I was doing home renovations full time - as an investment. For years now I've had much more sedentary work, and it shows on me. Why I'm still recovering from picking up a bag of leaves, if you can believe that. 3 weeks ago and I still can't bend my left hip properly.

You want to go back to regular physical activity. When I was young I had crippling joint pains and got rather depressed about it all. In the end I started doing lots of intense physical exercise. As everyone knows that causes a rise in dopamine levels in the brain, so it cheered me up and, in the long term, greatly reduced my agony. A few dozen miles of cycling a week, the odd hundred sit-ups and press-ups and you feel much better.

[Canadian_watcher]

It has been said before in this thread and said again, it is all about power....I don't feel that women should hold an ultimate authority on what constitutes misogyny, not only because males experience similar scenarios, but because it then gives females a similar power they were complaining about men having.

A man's experience of misogyny is like a man's experience of child-birth. You want to try and tell me what it felt like for me?

And C_W, I will just ask if any positive thought can be garnered about misogyny based on your persistent posts in regards to brekin (specifically the responses that comment on his actions in this thread and not on his ideas about misogyny)?

Can any positive thought be garnered about misogyny because I kept responding to [i]brekin's[/i] persistent posts? Why yes, I believe we can take from the exchange that I, as a woman, don't feel as inclined to keep my mouth shut as, say, my great-grandmother might have.

Can you not see how he kept posting the same shit over and over again.. "I'm telling you not to relate a personal, traumatic experience here, it has deeply affected you, it is only going to cause harm." Did you think I should just say, "Oh, okay brekin, you're right. I shouldn't have mentioned anything so embarassing and humiliating. I am obviously unable to think straight. Thanks, Daddy."

There has been no negative fallout from my exchange with brekin, except that two or three people have had to go over the same stuff numerous times, which is really rather boring.

[Project Willow]

You ask for ultimate authority on the subject due to experience with misogyny

I'm not asking for it, I have it, I am female. By definition, as C_W pointed out, you cannot understand. Is this a radical idea for you? Others have argued that those in power who invent and implement various methods of control are in a position of higher authority to describe those methods. That's a considerable argument, IF one assumes that any information offered from that particular authority is motivated by some sort of whistle blowing or malcontent perspective. Otherwise it's all mute, negated as necessarily in service to the existing power dynamic, and it might as well be received as some kind of manipulation.

Who are you WUaL? Are you a whistle blower? Are you a malcontent? I hardly think so.

It has been said before in this thread and said again, it is all about power....I don't feel that women should hold an ultimate authority on what constitutes misogyny, not only because males experience similar scenarios, but because it then gives females a similar power they were complaining about men having.

It is all about perspective, and right now I'm not sure anyone on this board has the proper perspective. There is a balance that both sides seem to be missing upon.

So in essence you are responding to the war between the sexes as warrior. You do not trust women to speak to their own experiences only, you do not respect our unique views, you project upon women as a group the motivations of men, in that you suspect women, in our search for equality, will somehow convert the dynamics of that pursuit into some kind of power-over scenario.

OK then, given your distrust, are you satisfied with the status quo of women? Are you pleased that we occupy inferior positions in society and experience daily the disrespect and deprivations of our position? Do you deny us our quest for equality in the first place? If not, then what remedy do you suggest?

[Canadian_watcher]

Nature and nurture work together. Through the application of enough will power you can fundamentally alter your body, even at a genetic level with great physical stress and adaptation changing epigenetic factors. On the other hand women are more likely to have their natural physical flimsiness worsened by their natural mental leanings, against extreme physical exertion and that sort of thing.

d'oh! It was shaping up so well there... I'll fix it:

Nature and nurture work together. ... On the other hand women are more likely to have their natural physical bodies worsened by social pressures which give them strong messages against extreme physical exertion and that sort of thing.

All better.

If there are lines of work, and I don't accept this, where women are institutionally paid less for the same sort work,

There's a pretty good resource you can try and use to prove your point here: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswom2009.pdf

I'll pick out a couple of samples, all of which come from the Bureau's Statistics from 2009:

Postal Service Mail Carriers: females earn 96.2% of what men do.
Dispatchers: Females earn 82.2% of what men do.
and you'll like this one, particularly:
Data Entry Keyers: females earn 82.4% of what men do.

Lots more there but I don't think you're going to find a single incidence where the percentage works in favour of your argument. I was looking specifically for data on nursing, because I can find many, many references to male nurses out-earning female nurses. I didn't see anything there specifically for nursing though.

There are no similar lines of work for men because professions dominated by women will commonly simply refuse to ever hire men, rather than recruiting them on lower wages. I and other people I've encountered have experienced this in trying to work as carers, any work with children, certain office jobs and so on.

So you've reported. The only time I've ever seen a man-ban live and in person was for a job at the Sexual Assault Crisis Center in my area. (And by the way, I applied to that - you'd think that with my degree I would have at least gotten a CALL)

[brekin]

Peregrine wrote:

brekin wrote:
My counsel was based honestly more on mental health concerns. I was advising you because I
thought it wasn't a good idea for your immediate mental health or the overall discussion..... What gives me the right to judge your mental state at the time? Your actions.


While I didn't read into it as paternalistic, I do find it really funny that you are questioning her mental health. Because someone (whether it a man or a woman) gets angry about something & shares a really personal experience, their mental health is brought into question? really? I've seen lots of folks get real mad on here but don't remember their mental health being questioned....

I probably should have said "mental health at the time." But yes, choosing to share something so vulnerable and personable to (at that time an unsympathetic audience) in a taunting
way is someone who appeared to me to be in a very angry, pressurized place. Mental Health wise not feeling very good. If I get in an argument in a bar and things start to get hostile I don't decide then to pull out traumatic episodes from my past. That's me and if others do that and are able to, then hey go for it.

And the Na Na video? Your a mod right? If gold should rust what of brass then?

C_W wrote:

It's a common tactic among certain personality types to bully someone to the point of them getting upset and then feigning concern about their state of mind.

Now I'm a bully who orchestrated this to feign concern. Who's signature has that line from Kierkegaard "When you label me you negate me?"

C_W wrote:
I would maintain that his statements were paternalistic, fitting this definition from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosphy:


Quote:
Paternalism is the interference of a state or an individual with another person, against their will, and defended or motivated by a claim that the person interfered with will be better off or protected from harm.

Tell me how did I interfere with you against you will? Please tell me how suggesting you don't post something so revealing in a moment of anger addressed to those who were unsympathetic to you
is interfering against your will? Does my suggestion carry so much weight and I am such an influence in your life that it interferes in you exercising your will? I would assume your will is stronger than that.

You had already posted and I suggested it wasn't a good idea for you or anyone else. This was after you had exercised your will. Sure, I did in the effort to reduce harm for everyone but now I have to be
outfitted with another label for that? I in no way obstructed, blocked or interfered in you exercising you will through my statements. Your interpretation of events doesn't fit the definition.

But that's ok. This is how we fix it. We email Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and tell them their definition doesn't fit what you experienced. It's related to misogamy so it's not up for debate.
To do so would be inherently disrespectful. To closely determine, challenge, analyze or even disagree with your use of the definition would frankly negate your experience. They need to listen to how we feel about the definition, and how we feel about what others think about our use of the definition. Not to, would basically limit them from a common vocabulary.

I don't attribute unkind motivations to brekin's paternalism, but I do think it is amazing that he cannot see examples of it.

I guess I don't believe everyone is always omnipotent and may not be at there best. I've needed a helping hand at times and feels others would appreciate it.
Advice is free and people free to take it or leave it. Of course no good deed goes unpunished and I must now stand in the line up with Furnace Man