zionists vs. truth

[AnnaLivia]

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[AnnaLivia]

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[AnnaLivia]

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[darkbeforedawn]

Furthermore,
It is absolutely and entirely possible, as Joe has evidenced, to educate about the crimes of Israel without ever once mentioning the word Zion in any form.
I too, Anna was addressing the whole board and you have responded by ignoring my post.

The reason we HAVE TO ADDRESS THE ZIONISTS ISSUE is evident from the above article by Madsen that I have just posted
and by the thread after thread addressing the "power of Isreal in the US"
These threads bring up the issue that what motivates the tremendous support received by Isreal from the United States is not the state of Israel.
IT IS ZIONISM.
Zionists through powerful lobbys and through their control of the media control our congress. Zionists through the members of PNAC control our government.
I don't "scratch every issue and see a zionist"
What I do see is zionists behind the war in the middle east and zionists behind the censored, dumbed down and deplorable condition of our
"free press" and media.
And after your reading your thoroughly muddy and absurd response to the issues here, I would have to say that your intent, Anna, was to dilute and divert any clear ideas I and others have put forward here.
Your twaddle about "politics and vote getting" has no relevance that I can see. You wanted to avoid the above issues and avoid talking about the genocide and culture wars unfolding before our very eyes, driven with the engine and justification of zionism.

[AnnaLivia]

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[sunny]

don't understand, sunny...i was addressing the whole board. ?

You quoted me, so I answered.

aren't you trying to win a majority to the cause of justice? ...through education?

And speaking the plain truth is an obstacle to this how? You seem to think that warning people who might speak out that they'll be tarred as an anti-semite despite the fact that they don't hate Jewish people is somehow a turn-off. Maybe it is, but it's the truth. Can you deny it? Why does this happen? Can you explain this?

give me the WHYS BEHIND yours?

I write about this issue because only a tiny minority of Americans are truly aware of the horrors that are being perpetrated against Palestinians even as we speak. I write and speak about the horrors in order to counter the charge that people who write and speak about the horrors are anti-semites. Can you deny that horrors are occuring? Can you explain why most people do not know about the full extent of the horrors? Bottom line, I want people to know about it so we have a better chance of stopping it. I write about it because I care about what is happening to the Palestinians, not because I hate Jewish people.

Are you charging that every person on this board who writes about this issue is an anti-semite?

I will concede there is a danger of certain less discerning individuals tipping over a cliff when contemplating this issue, but does that mean the rest of us shoud shut up? Does the possibility of this occuring outweigh what is already happening?

[AlicetheKurious]

I will concede there is a danger of certain less discerning individuals tipping over a cliff when contemplating this issue, but does that mean the rest of us shoud shut up? Does the possibility of this occuring outweigh what is already happening?

Ah, Sunny... You've put your finger right on the throbbing pulse of the matter. For some people, the murder, even genocide of countless Arab men, women and children, their dispossession, their despair, are a small price to pay (especially that someone else pays it), to avoid that most terrible, horrible, unbearable of accusations, of antisemitism. Does this word have a definition? It seems not, since some people define it as hatred of Jews, and others define it as criticism of Israel, while still others define it according to who disagrees with those who have appointed themselves to be the sole legitimate representatives of all Jews.

I guess as long as we can stay mired in such fascinating and heated debates, we can afford to let a few more settlements be built, a few more people be killed, a few more children starve or be shot to death. Because we are such moral people, with such delicate sensitivities, and god forbid we should inadvertently find ourselves lumped with people whose thinking and speech is offensive.

Better to just let the ragheads die.

[Seventhsonjr]

Zionism is not monolithic any more than Israel is or the United States is in terms of idealogy.

There are Zionists who oppose the State of Israel.

Most Israelis are not Zionists (most are secular) justr as most Americans (US citizens) are not Bushzi-supporting republicans.

The policies of the current Israeli and US governments are fascist policies and controlled by fascist entities.

Zionism (like nationalism,patriotism, etc. in the US) is simply one propaganda tool in the toolbox of the fascists. It is an ism like any other which is used for propaganda purposes and to coelesce support from (or against) various entities. Fascists have used socialism, communism, falangism, capitalism, Zionism, to their benefit for well over 100 years (not to mention the exploitation of the Sunni-Shia religious differences, too, for example).

The predominant ethnicity behind global fascism is the same as it was 60-70 years ago in nazi Germany: WASPs. WASP elites control the far right in Israel and hence have much if not total control over the socalled Zionist right-wing neocons. These right wing socalled Zionist neocons are collaborators with the fascist WASP elites from the US, England and Germany.

Collaborators with the Fourth Reich include those who would be exterminated by it. There may even be a handful of bona fide Zionists in that fascist bunch, but I would doubt it. It is not out of the love of G-D, or Israel, or Jews or the "chosen people" that by far most far right socalled Zionists support the Bushzis - it is love of power, necrophilic and fascist power.

To focus on Zionism as the problem is to buy into the fascist propaganda that sets Jews and non-Jews against each other and feeds the beast and its purposes.

Blast away...

[sunny]

Elite Supporters of Israel (I have no objection to not using Zionism as a catch-all phrase) and elite WASPS are in concert as long as their interests converge. Right now, I think there is more than a little tension between them. The ISG and the rest of Sr. Bushs' clique strongly suggest engaging in talks with Iran and Syria, Israel and the neocons want war. Whoever wins this standoff will show us who's boss.




http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... onism.html

A Definition of Zionism

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.

[AnnaLivia]

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[Seventhsonjr]

subject - so I am playing catchup.

could you be more specific (just briefly)?

And care to comment on my post?

I will try to find the 101 post.

[Seventhsonjr]

[quote="sunny"]Elite Supporters of Israel (I have no objection to not using Zionism as a catch-all phrase) and elite WASPS are in concert as long as their interests converge. Right now, I think there is more than a little tension between them. The ISG and the rest of Sr. Bushs' clique strongly suggest engaging in talks with Iran and Syria, Israel and the neocons want war. Whoever wins this standoff will show us who's boss.

[/quote]


Sunny - Thanks for response, I think also the term "Israel" is too broad. I would argue that the neocon/fascists in Israel want war and that "Israel" as a people does not any more than "Americans" want these wars.

Israelis are no more supportive in these acts of aggression than we US citizens are for the most part. However, they are as manipulated by the propagnda and corruption in their land as we are in ours.

But even still, I am not sure I agree with your premise entirely, either with respect to the Israeli government. I do not think that Olmert wants more war or that he has the political support for it. That is not the same as to say that many in his cabinet and behind the scenes there (the shadow governments and spooks aligned with our won of the same ilk) do not want war. But I think this is a tiny minority of very powerful people who do not have the juice to make it happen. I do not believe even Bush has the juice to make it happen absent devious covert action (by the bfee) like another 9-11-type incident here or abroad.

I think it is a dangerous and extremely misinformed to utilize the Zionism meme which is the bread and butter of fascism and is a great big red pickled herring.

[erosoplier]

I think focusing on the junk in people's heads is the way to go, because while some of the time the junk may have become accidentally lodged, it's becoming increasingly obvious that much of the junk in our heads has been placed there intentionally as a substitute for valuable and accurate thoughts and beliefs.

I've been reading Alan Hart's "Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews" (2005). I'm up to page 77 of the 550 page volume one, and my impression so far is that there may not be much need to write any more books on Zionism until everybody has read Hart's. It is considerate and comprehensive. Hart is a long time ME journalist, and was actually on friendly terms with Golda Meir (Goldie Mabovitch), "Mother of Israel." (Meir managed to single-handedly bring 50 million dollars back from the US in 1948 when they had been hoping to raise 25 million - thus her title). He says she considered him to be her favourite goy. He was the journalist interviewing Meir when she said those infamous words "There's no such thing as a Palestinian." (And in the book he tells about how after Meir's funeral her assistant took him back to Meirs flat to give him a message from Meir - that "she told me to tell you that as soon as those words left her mouth, she knew they were the silliest damn thing she ever said!").

His book is shaping up to be a death by a thousand cuts for Zionism. From its very beginnings zionism was wrong-headed and spoiling for trouble - there is no getting past that without junk. But at this point in time I'm guessing that the coming events of history are going to sweep the truth and Hart's small voice to the side. The victor gets to write history, and we today are like the child who grows up loving and respecting the step-father, not knowing that the step-father murdered the father and extorted the silence of the mother. After the Iran holocaust conference there were calls from within the Jewish community for Nutrei Karta (sp?) rabbis to be excommunicated - these are calls from decieved children. All too bad, all so sad.

[Joe Hillshoist]

What is happening to the Palestinians is to my mind very similar to what happened to aboriginal people's across the world throughout history and especially in the last 500 years.

Including here in Australia. Should everyone here go back to europe or S America, or SE Asia or the middle east. "Back where they came from".?

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel

So to be anti Zionist is to want the eradication of Israel??? Cos that is the implication. Its not about a two state solution or returning Israel to its pre 67 borders.


Thats what it means at Stormfront. Maybe the Iranian leadership didn't call for the eradication of Israel but the Nazis at that hole do.

From its very beginnings zionism was wrong-headed and spoiling for trouble - there is no getting past that without junk.

Thats very true, but here and now what is the answer?

There are two trends in this anti Zionism thing, one is the justified abhorrance at the actions of the IDF in reponse to some elements in the Israeli establishment. The other is the movement to remove Israel from the map.

I am glad sunny put the quote about the home land movement in cos it puts the depth of the issue right up there.

I can appreciate Alice's passion and her points, but I think there other posters 7th son and sunny in partiicular who sum the issue up well.

The policies of the current Israeli and US governments are fascist policies and controlled by fascist entities.

Collaborators with the Fourth Reich include those who would be exterminated by it. There may even be a handful of bona fide Zionists in that fascist bunch, but I would doubt it. It is not out of the love of G-D, or Israel, or Jews or the "chosen people" that by far most far right socalled Zionists support the Bushzis - it is love of power, necrophilic and fascist power.

To focus on Zionism as the problem is to buy into the fascist propaganda that sets Jews and non-Jews against each other and feeds the beast and its purposes.

[AnnaLivia]

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