1962 Gulf of Tonkin LIMPET op = 1964 'Incredible Mr. Limpet'

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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:08 am

First off Hugh I have to say that personally I feel coincidence or synchronicity plays a much greater role in reality than many people would credit.

The idea of an associate universe makes a lot of sense to me, and after reading Prometheus Rising by RAWilson and doing some but not all of the experiments and exercises in it, I had that feeling reinforced stronlgly.

But actually I think your Naruto thing is a more likely to be a keyword hijack than many of your examples. For a start toys are a social conditioning thing, and Mattel are kind of sus when it comes to their social agenda. I don't know where the tentacles of ownership of matel lead, but I would not be surrprised if some lead directly to "we drink your blood inc".

But also because the association is so close.

To me examples like the paperclip one could serve to draw attention to one another rather than obscure each other, but the Naruto thing is too close. Based only on what you have said and a quick glance at wikipedia it seems that there are close correlations.

I also think I am starting to understand your keyword hijacking obsession, but I may be wrong on this.

Did you start to form this theory after numerous attempts to google information?

Did you find that often you found associations that directed away from the area you were searching?

Repeatedly?

Anyway the Naruto thing seems to make more sense to me.

The major flaw I find with the theory is that it is ... its too hard to hide associations by misdirection unless they are so close that they are almost the same. If you want people to confuse one thing with another then similarity is the key. Most of the examples you have quoted recetly aren't close enough to obscure each other, IMO. But possibly the Narut/Naruto one is.

One of the things about searching is that effective searching is best done with three four or five keywords at least.

I think the same thing applies for association in the mind.

Its probably got more in common with sleight of hand, a bit of a leap here, but sleight of hand and misdirection work by setting up a pattern (well imo anyway) of perception, and then introducing a small almost undetectable change in the pattern that achieves the misdirection you want.

The minimal differences that allow sleight of hand to work are the things that would work in your keyword hijackinh concept IMO, but several of the examples you cite don't seem similar enough, the differences are too great.

Tho they don't seem as great in the Naruto example. I still wouldn't be surprised if it was a coincidence or synchronicity, but at the same time it is a plausible thing, much more plausible given its popularity in the west than it would be if it was just a japanese program/comic.


I do think that the association you make with certain elements of our pop culture and promotion of military service is an accurate association.

I have been thinking about my past a bit and the camo thing. I actually first got into camo gear through cadets, but immediately started wearing it everywhere cos it was cheap and tough. This was back in the early to mid 80s btw.

But there was a certain coolness associated with it in the cadet unit I was in, and that probably influenced me right back in the day. I still have a tiger stripe cam shirt that a friends dad had in vietnam. I used to use it when I was growing pot, its a great camoflauge. Especially in sub tropical country and areas where there is a canopy and shadowy ground.

Although most of the people I knew outside cadets who got into it were usually pretty anti war and anti authority, and antifashion (in a cool way of course.)

So perhaps you are right about it to a certain extent, although I think that needs to be qualified with a recognition of the cheapness and the indy scene (pre Nirvana) and the role that had in popularising it.

When it comes to toys, well there have always been war toys, but the context does seem to have shifted. There is more glamourising of the actual conflict i think, and a kind of revelling in the violence and aggression, and use of power. Its not just the violent video games, but the brutality of warhammer figures seems to eclipse that of GI Joe.

There also seems to be a real focus on obedience and deference to authority. Its just my impression, from hanging out with people with kids and seeing the toys that they like. And a real glorification of violence, even in less obviously violent cartoons. But especially the idea of elitism, specifcally wedded to the idea of dealing with 'bad guys" or the other.

The themes that snippet and the original article from statecraft.org explore seem to fit with the impression I get.

Especially if you think about atrocity research, and the way our culture is going (the culture of atrocity post is a case in point.) Dunno if you have read Dune, but there are aspects of the way this goes that reminds me of the Saradur (?) the Emperor's elite troops.

BTW If you haven't read the Trial, do yourself a favour and read it.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:20 am

I just made a post and it only appears in the topic review, it isn't appearing in the actaul thread. It comments on hugh's Naruto KH and ends with If you haven't read the trial do yourself a favour and read it" or something.

Anyone actually seeing it.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:23 am

Oh its there now. It wasn't a cpu error. I just timed out, and thought I had lost the post - then it appeared in the topic review, but not when I went back to look at the actual thread. Not even when I refreshed the page.

Oh well.
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Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:58 am

Joe Hillshoist wrote:Dunno if you have read Dune, but there are aspects of the way this goes that reminds me of the Saradur (?) the Emperor's elite troops.


Sardaukar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardaukar

Heavy Dune reader here.

Edit: You may or not agree with my observation that today's Iraq bears more than a passing resemblance to Salusa Secundas:

"Secretly, Salusa was also home to the vicious training grounds of the Sardaukar, who fought voraciously in a mock-up of natural selection to ensure that only the best entered formal Imperial service."

I'm quite sure that Hugh's not a Frank Herbert reader, which I lament, as he'd gain as much insight from that genius as he would in probing Linebarger's psuedonym 'Cordwainer Smith' who's fiction ranks among the absolute best I've ever read. Linebarger, for the rest of you, is the grand-daddy of Psychological Warfare, among other things. His book of the same name, is still considered THE reference.

And is available at amazon.com.
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Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:18 am

To abuse the synchronicities one step further, Herbert's first novel, The Dragon in the Sea, published in 1955 dealt with, you guessed it, Oil conflicts..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_the_Sea

Plot introduction

Set in a near-future earth, the west and the east have been at war for more than a decade, and resources are running thin. The west is stealing oil from the east with specialized nuclear submarines ("subtugs") that sneak into the underwater oil fields of the east to secretly pump out the oil and bring it back. With a crew of four, these submarines undertake the most hazardous, stressful mission conceivable, and of late, the missions have been failing, with the last twenty submarines simply disappearing.

Plot summary

The east has been very successful in planting sleepers in the west's military and command structures, and the suspicion is that sleepers are sabotaging the subs or revealing their positions once at sea. John Ramsey, a young psychologist from the Bureau of Psychology (BuPsych), is trained as an electronics operator and sent on the next mission, replacing the previous officer who went insane. His secret mission is to find the sleeper, or figure out why the crews are going crazy.

Typically for Herbert, psychology and religion (the title comes from a quote from the Book of Revelation) play a large role in the narrative, as Johnny comes to understand the nature of the subtug crews and how they carry out their missions.

The technology described in the books, of the submarines towing large bags filled with the surreptitiously pumped oil presaged, and may even have been an inspiration for, the invention - whose development started in the year following Herbert's serial - which is now known as Dracones[2] (note that dracone means "dragon").

References

1. ^ "The book showcased his interest in human psychology, especially as applied to power and leadership, and it also predicted, by two decades, the political ramifications of oil dependency and production." "Frank Herbert
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Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:23 am

People that bitch about Bush should thank the lord that Vladamir Harkonnen is a creature of fiction..

:twisted:
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Postby orz » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:16 pm

There's something going on here with this 'Naruto' thing and I'm not sure just what.

I am: Naruto is pretty much the biggest most mainstream popular anime series in japan this decade. So, they released it in the US where it has also become very popular. The companies who own it make big $$$. Annoying kids on the internet draw terrible drawings of the characters. The end.


Obviously Hugh you're not suggesting that the anime series was made or even named "Naruto" because of this Thomas Natrut guy. That only leaves the possibility that THEY spotting an opportunity to KH and thus heavily marketed Naruto in the US.

BUT, there's no way economically speaking that Naruto would NOT be marketed widely in the USA. The companies involved were bound to release it and it was bound to be successful, and it was bound to be called Naruto. If they had changed the name you might be onto something but in this case at no point could anyone possibly have decided to release it in the US because of the name... It was happening anyway. If there's no choice in the matter then there's no deliberate KH.

Trivia: "Naruto" is the weird spiral fishcake slices that you get in Ramen noodles. :) If you can find a way to work that in to the KH theory then be my guest.

I think there's a good possibility that a US marketing effort was made to displace the Thomas Narut story with Naruto-
Yet again: HOW!?!

Is there a great crossover between 12 year old anime fans and researchers of millitary psychology? Does googling "Thomas Narut" find Naruto fansites? Would 12 year old anime fans be clamouring to hear about millitary psychology if there's wasn't a show called "naturo"?


Hugh, I can't see a single way the show naruto could in any way, positively or negatively, affect public knowledge of the issues you're connecting it to. If THEY do want to hide knowledge about Narut then there are a million more effective ways to do it.

The mere fact that there are connections to be found IS NOT ENOUGH. Not enough to make your claims feasible, and certainly not enough for the CIA to launch elaborate decade-long programmes to ensure that a japanese cartoon has a specific name.
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Postby orz » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:04 pm

There's something going on here with this 'Naruto' thing and I'm not sure just what.

I am: Naruto is pretty much the biggest most mainstream popular anime series in japan this decade. So, they released it in the US where it has also become very popular. The companies who own it make big $$$. Annoying kids on the internet draw terrible drawings of the characters. The end.


Obviously Hugh you're not suggesting that the anime series was made or even named "Naruto" because of this Thomas Natrut guy. That only leaves the possibility that THEY spotting an opportunity to KH and thus heavily marketed Naruto in the US.

BUT, there's no way economically speaking that Naruto would NOT be marketed widely in the USA. The companies involved were bound to release it and it was bound to be successful, and it was bound to be called Naruto. If they had changed the name you might be onto something but in this case at no point could anyone possibly have decided to release it in the US because of the name... It was happening anyway. If there's no choice in the matter then there's no deliberate KH.

Trivia: "Naruto" is the weird spiral fishcake slices that you get in Ramen noodles. :) If you can find a way to work that in to the KH theory then be my guest.

I think there's a good possibility that a US marketing effort was made to displace the Thomas Narut story with Naruto-
Yet again: HOW!?!

Is there a great crossover between 12 year old anime fans and researchers of millitary psychology? Does googling "Thomas Narut" find Naruto fansites? Would 12 year old anime fans be clamouring to hear about millitary psychology if there's wasn't a show called "naturo"?


Hugh, I can't see a single way the show naruto could in any way, positively or negatively, affect public knowledge of the issues you're connecting it to. If THEY do want to hide knowledge about Narut then there are a million more effective ways to do it.

The mere fact that there are connections to be found IS NOT ENOUGH. Not enough to make your claims feasible, and certainly not enough for the CIA to launch elaborate decade-long programmes to ensure that a japanese cartoon has a specific name.


ARGH cpu errors left right and centre. Someone remind me; why am i arguing with an insane person on a messageboard that doesn't even work? :(
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Postby professorpan » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:29 pm

What orz said.
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Krebs and Gilligan? no takers?

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:59 pm

No comment on Gilligan and Krebs and 'God's Fool' from the naysayers?

I dunno about Naruto. Mattel is probably just opportunistic with their action figure.
But Disney toys are there, too. And they are USG.

I'm sure there's more than just Disney as a USG asset since deforming kids is so important to the USG. A "Ruthless Aggression" wrestling action figure? Go look at the toys being marketed to kids.

Notice that the author of 'A Clockwork Orange' probably was putting his MKULTRA firsthand knowledge into a fictionalization. And that CIA did mirror Dr. Len Horowitz' work in a Steven Seagal movie. There's reality behind the screen.
CIA runs mainstream media since WWII:
news rooms, movies/TV, publishing
...
Disney is CIA for kidz!
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Postby orz » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:09 pm

No comment on Gilligan and Krebs and 'God's Fool' from the naysayers?

No, because yet again, your simply spinning new theories isn't a substitute for dealing with criticisms of the previous ones, nor is it evidence for them.

Notice that the author of 'A Clockwork Orange' probably was putting his MKULTRA firsthand knowledge into a fictionalization.
That's very interesting indeed. Doesn't mean you're not incorrect in the specifics of other 'keyword hijacks', and also Burgess doing so doesn't neccessarily have the specific significance or intent you're implying.

Glad you admit the Naruto thing is tenuous at best tho.
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Postby orz » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:12 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Burgess

Military authorities who came across a copy of Joyce's Finnegans Wake in Burgess's possession in 1941 thought it was some kind of code book.

A few Hugh Manatees on the staff there I think! :D
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Postby orz » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:23 pm

"two nothings is nothing" - CPU Error
Last edited by orz on Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby brownzeroed » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:41 pm

I'm sure there's more than just Disney as a USG asset since deforming kids is so important to the USG.


Little known facts: "Studios" no longer exist. They are a loose international confederation of investors, production companies, creatives, theater owners and distributors. Emphasis on international. Studios haven't been a stand alone, vertically-integrated entity since it was deemed a violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act in 1948 (Google the Paramount Case). There isn't one film on this planet that receives a single check from a solitary benefactor for completion. I have heard stories of coordination with organized crime and Intelligence Agencies (local and otherwise) but it's usually a tale about money laundering. The propaganda films are pretty obvious (see: Michael Bay). Not too subtle. When your tinkering with adolescent minds, it's best not to be. "It's got electrolytes..."

Besides, if you still believe in nation states, your about 60 years too late :).

Notice that the author of 'A Clockwork Orange' probably was putting his MKULTRA firsthand knowledge into a fictionalization.


Um. Can you substantiate this?
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Postby orz » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:28 pm

(more board weirdness, ignore...)
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