rigorousintuition.ca

Yeah, I know what you're all saying... duh.

But this post, from a pro-war site, written by a guy who supervised waterboarding for American SERE trainees, is very illuminating nonetheless. I don't endorse the militarism of the site, but I do endorse the conclusions of this article and its rejection of torture -- and the descriptions of waterboarding and its practitioners is powerful.

An excerpt:

Who will complain about the new world-wide embrace of torture? America has justified it legally at the highest levels of government. Even worse, the administration has selectively leaked supposed successes of the water board such as the alleged Khalid Sheik Mohammed confessions. However, in the same breath the CIA sources for the Washington Post noted that in Mohammed’s case they got information but "not all of it reliable." Of course, when you waterboard you get all the magic answers you want -because remember, the subject will talk. They all talk! Anyone strapped down will say anything, absolutely anything to get the torture to stop. Torture. Does. Not. Work.

According to the President, this is not a torture, so future torturers in other countries now have an American legal basis to perform the acts. Every hostile intelligence agency and terrorist in the world will consider it a viable tool, which can be used with impunity. It has been turned into perfectly acceptable behavior for information finding.

A torture victim can be made to say anything by an evil nation that does not abide by humanity, morality, treaties or rule of law. Today we are on the verge of becoming that nation. Is it possible that September 11 hurt us so much that we have decided to gladly adopt the tools of KGB, the Khmer Rouge, the Nazi Gestapo, the North Vietnamese, the North Koreans and the Burmese Junta?

What next if the waterboarding on a critical the captive doesn’t work and you have a timetable to stop the “ticking bomb” scenario? Electric shock to the genitals? Taking a pregnant woman and electrocuting the fetus inside her? Executing a captive’s children in front of him? Dropping live people from an airplane over the ocean? It has all been done by governments seeking information. All claimed the same need to stop the ticking bomb. It is not a far leap from torture to murder, especially if the subject is defiant. Are we willing to trade our nation’s soul for tactical intelligence?

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/1 ... ure-perio/

professorpan wrote:Yeah, I know what you're all saying... duh.

But this post, from a pro-war site, written by a guy who supervised waterboarding for American SERE trainees, is very illuminating nonetheless. I don't endorse the militarism of the site, but I do endorse the conclusions of this article and its rejection of torture -- and the descriptions of waterboarding and its practitioners is powerful.

An excerpt:

Who will complain about the new world-wide embrace of torture? America has justified it legally at the highest levels of government. Even worse, the administration has selectively leaked supposed successes of the water board such as the alleged Khalid Sheik Mohammed confessions. However, in the same breath the CIA sources for the Washington Post noted that in Mohammed’s case they got information but "not all of it reliable." Of course, when you waterboard you get all the magic answers you want -because remember, the subject will talk. They all talk! Anyone strapped down will say anything, absolutely anything to get the torture to stop. Torture. Does. Not. Work.

According to the President, this is not a torture, so future torturers in other countries now have an American legal basis to perform the acts. Every hostile intelligence agency and terrorist in the world will consider it a viable tool, which can be used with impunity. It has been turned into perfectly acceptable behavior for information finding.

A torture victim can be made to say anything by an evil nation that does not abide by humanity, morality, treaties or rule of law. Today we are on the verge of becoming that nation. Is it possible that September 11 hurt us so much that we have decided to gladly adopt the tools of KGB, the Khmer Rouge, the Nazi Gestapo, the North Vietnamese, the North Koreans and the Burmese Junta?

What next if the waterboarding on a critical the captive doesn’t work and you have a timetable to stop the “ticking bomb” scenario? Electric shock to the genitals? Taking a pregnant woman and electrocuting the fetus inside her? Executing a captive’s children in front of him? Dropping live people from an airplane over the ocean? It has all been done by governments seeking information. All claimed the same need to stop the ticking bomb. It is not a far leap from torture to murder, especially if the subject is defiant. Are we willing to trade our nation’s soul for tactical intelligence?

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/1 ... ure-perio/

I am totally against torture but in the interest of rationality have to challenge the concept that torture never works. It has, it does and unfortunately it will. Sure, in some cases false info will emerge but a sophisticated intelligence apparatus is not going to act on any information on it's own; it will be used to cross-reference and double check. The purpose of this kind of interrogation is different than just trying to get an innocent/guilty determination which is the basis of the whole torture does not work concept referenced to police garnered false confessions.

I am totally against torture but in the interest of rationality have to challenge the concept that torture never works. It has, it does and unfortunately it will. Sure, in some cases false info will emerge but a sophisticated intelligence apparatus is not going to act on any information on it's own; it will be used to cross-reference and double check. The purpose of this kind of interrogation is different than just trying to get an innocent/guilty determination which is the basis of the whole torture does not work concept referenced to police garnered false confessions.

a sophisticated intelligence apparatus is not going to act on any information on it's own;


That's really funny.
One of the major critcisms about USUK "intelligence" was the FAILURE to obtain data from TWO sources.

Remember "curveball"?

Remember "Niger uranium"?

Remember "45 minutes from doom".


The actual modus operandi was to create "intelligence", then DESTROY any opposition to that intelligence. That way it did not matter how weak was the initial intelligence. It won out.

And David Kelly lies in his grave as a reminder to others.

So I suppose you are right.

Torture DOES sometimes work.

One of the major critcisms about USUK "intelligence" was the FAILURE to obtain data from TWO sources.

This bears no relevance to my premise which deals exclusively with the canard that "torture NEVER works."

Doodad wrote:

One of the major critcisms about USUK "intelligence" was the FAILURE to obtain data from TWO sources.

This bears no relevance to my premise which deals exclusively with the canard that "torture NEVER works."

Doodad,
WHEN does torture "work", then?
Since I missed your premise, could you help me with a concrete example?

antiaristo wrote:

Doodad wrote:

One of the major critcisms about USUK "intelligence" was the FAILURE to obtain data from TWO sources.

This bears no relevance to my premise which deals exclusively with the canard that "torture NEVER works."

Doodad,
WHEN does torture "work", then?
Since I missed your premise, could you help me with a concrete example?

In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.


"I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."

The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/ ... 0012.shtml

All I need is one example like this from a man who is totally AGAINST torture, to prove that the word "never," is a lie. To believe it never works, one would have to believe that since time began that torture has only continued because of sadism; that is absurd.

That said, of course, it is never a good option and usually an ineffective one in the arsenal of interrogative techniques and should be totally avoided.

absolutes, when talking about human behoviour, are going to be inaccurate. But the writer, I thought, exaggerated to make a valid point. Torture is unreliable. There have been people who have withstood appalling pain and injury to give no info, the wrong info, or the right info too late. The point is, from this military perspective, is surely that it is not a good idea, because its very unreliable, opens the door to its being used against your own forces, and degenerates.
I'm sorry he didn't seem aware of the absolute irony of the claim of defending freedom by using the ultimate negation of freedom, but still, he made good points.

blanc wrote:absolutes, when talking about human behoviour, are going to be inaccurate. But the writer, I thought, exaggerated to make a valid point. Torture is unreliable. There have been people who have withstood appalling pain and injury to give no info, the wrong info, or the right info too late. The point is, from this military perspective, is surely that it is not a good idea, because its very unreliable, opens the door to its being used against your own forces, and degenerates.
I'm sorry he didn't seem aware of the absolute irony of the claim of defending freedom by using the ultimate negation of freedom, but still, he made good points.

Oh I agree. If we are against torture, our arguments need to be totally rational and truthful, otherwise we lose respect and credibility. There is so much that can be said against torture which satisfies those criteria without resorting to, as you say, absolutes. This is what has derailed the 9/11 investigations movement as well. Self control in discourse wins the debate but absolutes wins over the masses.

Doodad wrote:
All I need is one example like this from a man who is totally AGAINST torture, to prove that the word "never," is a lie. To believe it never works, one would have to believe that since time began that torture has only continued because of sadism; that is absurd.

That said, of course, it is never a good option and usually an ineffective one in the arsenal of interrogative techniques and should be totally avoided.

I'm running that over.
You mentioned premise before. Do you have any evidence that McCain is totally against torture?

I know a little of the history.
But I'm wondering if there are any actions against torture on his part. So far as I know he votes funding for what has been going on in Mesopotamia. Does he abstain or anything like that, in protest?

Here's what waterboarding looks like:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/poli ... index.html

McCain is a globalist neoCON. He might not like hands on torture because of his expeirience with the Viet Cong, but he's WAY on board with mass murder of innocents.

In 1947, the Japanese were tried for war crimes -- specifically for "waterboarding as torture."

link

judasdisney wrote:In 1947, the Japanese were tried for war crimes -- specifically for "waterboarding as torture."

link

Specifically, no.

Defendant: Asano, Yukio


Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan

Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.

Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward

Verdict: 15 years CHL

Reviewing Authority Recommendations:

Reviewing Authority:

Prosecution Arguments:

Defense Arguments:

Judge Advocate's Recommendations:

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~warcrime/ ... _Asano.htm

Doodad actually has a point.

Although torture is unreliable, it sometimes does work. Especially if the subject is disoriented enough to talk about anything. I don't have links for this, but for years the rumours around Victorian cops and torture abounded.

People will say anything to stop the torture, but I think thats why people are repeatedly tortured over periods of time, to see what information stays consistant, and what changes. It doesn't necessarily mean that info can be used in court either.

It doesn't lend any legitimacy to the idea of torture tho.

How effective it is has nothing to do with its ethical standing. The fact that its an abhorrant thing to do and that the worst bastards in human history have done it should be enough to demand it is never done. Especially in so called "free" "democratic" societies that are supposed to respect human rights.

this is bullshit as usual,

well done doodad, you have derailed another post by getting into hair splitting semantics,

and so whilst the democrats and americans in a wider sense get caught in a cicular and pointless discussion of wether 'waterboarding is torture'

this thread gets caught in a circular and pointless conversation about wether in the history of humanity torture has 'ever worked'

thats not the point of the origianl article or profpan who posted it,

america has legitimised torture as one of its tools,
torture is basically worthless and creates more problems than it solves, water boarding is torture,
and not enough people in america give a shit about other humans to do anything about it

spirit versus word