ESP debunked?

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ESP debunked?

Postby FourthBase » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:10 pm

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 010308.php

Researchers use neuroimaging to study ESP

CAMBRIDGE, Mass., Jan. 3, 2008 -- Psychologists at Harvard University have developed a new method to study extrasensory perception that, they argue, can resolve the century-old debate over its existence. According to the authors, their study not only illustrates a new method for studying such phenomena, but also provides the strongest evidence yet obtained against the existence of extrasensory perception, or ESP.

The research was led by Samuel Moulton, a graduate student in the department of psychology in the Faculty of Arts and Sciences at Harvard University with Stephen Kosslyn, John Lindsley Professor of Psychology at Harvard and was published in the Jan. 2008 issue of the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience. The scientists used brain scanning to test whether individuals have knowledge that cannot be explained through normal perceptual processing.

"If any ESP processes exist, then participants' brains should respond differently to ESP and non-ESP stimuli," explains Moulton. “Instead, results showed that participants’ brains responded identically to ESP and non-ESP stimuli, despite reacting strongly to differences in how emotional the stimuli were and showing subtle, stimulus-related effects.”

Nearly half of the adults in the United States believe in the existence of ESP, which includes telepathy (direct knowledge of another person's thoughts), clairvoyance (direct knowledge of remote events), and precognition (direct knowledge of the future). People commonly report unexplained knowledge of a loved one's death or a telephone caller's identity, for example, and attribute this knowledge to paranormal mental processing.

The U.S. government lent credence to such claims when it revealed that it had spent millions of dollars recruiting and training psychic spies during the Cold War. Furthermore, research studies have been reported that appear to support the existence of ESP, including an influential series of experiments analyzed by psychologist Daryl Bem of Cornell University. These studies, however, gave little insight into the mechanisms -- normal or paranormal -- that produced the anomalous results. Perhaps more telling, others failed to replicate these results.

To develop a better test of ESP, the authors decided to develop a new method, which directly addressed the presumed source of ESP: namely, the brain. They argue that because the brain enables perception and stores information -- even events people don't consciously perceive or information they can't consciously remember -- it can offer a much more comprehensive test for ESP than self-report or behavior.

"The brain shows a suppressed response to stimuli that a person has seen before, even when those stimuli were presented subliminally, so the person wasn't consciously aware of having seen them; furthermore, it shows an enhanced response to stimuli that a person is expecting," says Moulton. "Because knowledge and expectation bias brain activation, neuroimaging offers us a uniquely powerful test of subtle perceptual or cognitive processes."

To study whether or not ESP exists, Moulton and Kosslyn presented participants with two types of visual stimuli: ESP stimuli and non-ESP stimuli. These two types of stimuli were identical with one exception: ESP stimuli were not only presented visually, but also were presented telepathically, clairvoyantly, and precognitively to participants.

To present stimuli telepathically, the researchers showed the photographs to the participants' identical twin, relative, romantic partner, or friend, who was seated in another room. To present stimuli clairvoyantly, the researchers displayed the photographs on a distant computer screen. And to present stimuli precognitively, the researchers showed participants the photographs again in the future.

Does this conclusively prove that ESP does not exist" "No," says Moulton. "You cannot affirm the null hypothesis. But at the same time, some null results are stronger than others. This is the best evidence to date against the existence of ESP. Perhaps most important, this study offers scientists a new way to study ESP that avoids the pitfalls of past approaches."


http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521471

Harvard psychologists have released a study that they say provides the most convincing evidence yet against the existence of extrasensory perception (ESP).

In a study published in this month’s issue of the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, graduate student Samuel T. Moulton ’01 and Psychology Professor Stephen M. Kosslyn used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to assess whether individuals can have knowledge that does not come from normal perceptual processes. This focus on the brain sets their study apart from previous ESP research.

In the study, researchers tested three types of ESP­: telepathy, clairvoyance, and precognition.

The procedure involved participants viewing sets of photographs while inside an fMRI scanner. Some of the pictures, designated “ESP stimuli,” were also presented to the subject via the different forms of ESP. Stimuli shown telepathically were presented simultaneously to another person—the subject’s relative, romantic partner or friend—in a separate location. Stimuli presented by clairvoyance, the ability to perceive distant things or events, were displayed on a computer located outside the subject’s field of vision. Finally, pictures presented through precognition, the ability to see into the future, were shown to subjects at a later time.

According to Moulton, if ESP existed, the brain would respond differently to pictures designated as ESP stimuli and non-ESP stimuli. Theoretically, pictures perceived through ESP should produce a pattern in the brain similar to ones produced when an individual sees a previously encountered stimulus.

Instead, Moulton found that participants responded identically to both stimuli types, resulting in the lack of a statistically significant difference that is referred to as a “null result.”

Moulton said null results have made previous ESP research difficult to interpret, but that he wanted to design an experiment that would give information independent of whether or not it produced null results.

“We didn’t find anything, but we didn’t find anything in an interesting way,” he said.

Moulton said he was initially inspired by research he conducted for his senior thesis, which demonstrated that brain activity is affected by previous exposure, even when this exposure is subconscious.

When asked why people believe in ESP, Moulton said he believes that cognitive biases can result in people interpreting events in a paranormal way.

“We’re hard-wired to see patterns in things that are probably random,” he said.

He acknowledged that while null results can never be used to conclusively prove that ESP does not exist, he was glad to have done his part toward settling the age-old debate.

Aside from getting published, Kosslyn said that the study also provided him with a Christmas present to give.

“I got my mom’s brain on the cover of the journal,” Moulton said. “She participated in the study, and then they put her scan on the cover, and that was her present.”


http://jocn.mitpress.org/cgi/content/abstract/20/1/182

Parapsychology is the scientific investigation of apparently paranormal mental phenomena (such as telepathy, i.e., "mind reading"), also known as psi. Despite widespread public belief in such phenomena and over 75 years of experimentation, there is no compelling evidence that psi exists. In the present study, functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) was used in an effort to document the existence of psi. If psi exists, it occurs in the brain, and hence, assessing the brain directly should be more sensitive than using indirect behavioral methods (as have been used previously). To increase sensitivity, this experiment was designed to produce positive results if telepathy, clairvoyance (i.e., direct sensing of remote events), or precognition (i.e., knowing future events) exist. Moreover, the study included biologically or emotionally related participants (e.g., twins) and emotional stimuli in an effort to maximize experimental conditions that are purportedly conducive to psi. In spite of these characteristics of the study, psi stimuli and non-psi stimuli evoked indistinguishable neuronal responses—although differences in stimulus arousal values of the same stimuli had the expected effects on patterns of brain activation. These findings are the strongest evidence yet obtained against the existence of paranormal mental phenomena.


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Postby Crow » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:29 pm

Interesting findings, but they don't prove that ESP doesn't exist, only that it's not perceptible in the subjects they chose using their exercises and their current brain scans. This rather reminds me of when scientists tried to disprove the existence of the soul by attempting to weigh it.

Contrary to their assumptions, from my experience ESP is related to emotions just as much as it is to intellect, but it is neither emotion nor intellect. It seems to be somewhere in between. Using emotion and intellect can either cloud intuitions or sharpen them; there's a reason that these practices are referred to as "arts." But they certainly exist.
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Postby AlanStrangis » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:54 pm

Not sure this is conclusive (as stated in one of the articles).

Detecting extra sensory abilities with equipment that operating in a known sensory paradigm is kind of like trying to detect sound with a flashlight.

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Postby theeKultleeder » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:43 pm

Well, the next time I have a meta-sensory perception, I will ignore it and refer to brain scans instead.
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Postby Eldritch » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:02 pm

Crow wrote:Interesting findings, but they don't prove that ESP doesn't exist, only that it's not perceptible in the subjects they chose using their exercises and their current brain scans. This rather reminds me of when scientists tried to disprove the existence of the soul by attempting to weigh it.


AlanStrangis wrote:Detecting extra sensory abilities with equipment that operating in a known sensory paradigm is kind of like trying to detect sound with a flashlight.


I was going to say something similar, but both of you said it much better than I would have. :)
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Postby Crow » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:49 pm

theeKultleeder wrote:Well, the next time I have a meta-sensory perception, I will ignore it and refer to brain scans instead.


Please don't! Haven't you seen the movie "Brain Scan"? Total bad news!
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Postby FourthBase » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:27 pm

Despite widespread public belief in such phenomena and over 75 years of experimentation, there is no compelling evidence that psi exists.


I find that very troubling language. Is there not a wealth of verified anecdotal evidence about twins and other family members having a sixth sense, especially when danger is involved? How about the grey parrot (which I know these researchers are aware of) responding to what its human owner in another room is seeing? What about the strongest scientific studies of ESP from the early and mid 20th century (e.g., the Duke study) that Koestler cites in The Roots of Coincidence, which show positive results beyond the realm of chance for certain humans in certain contexts? And are we supposed to believe that the U.S. military spent many millions of dollars over many years researching something they didn't already have or quickly find some solid evidence for? (Maybe those projects were smokescreens?) Finally, what about ESPER.

Sony funds controversial ESP study.
Los Angeles Times, 12 November, 1995, Pg. A30
Peter Landers

Sony, the Japanese corporation that brought us the Walkman, is performing research on paranormal phenomena. Among the topics being studied are the following: alternative medicine, spoon-bending, X-ray vision, telepathy, and other forms of ESP.

Sony's "Institute of Wisdom" was founded in 1989. Researchers study psychics' brain waves, pulse, temperature and skin conductivity but have not reached any solid conclusions. A subdivision of the Institute, Extra-Sensory Perception Excitation Research, has worked with more than 100 subjects reported to possess ESP.

This effort is being led by Yoichiro Sako who is said to be a respected scientist. One of Sako's experiments was to present subjects with two black plastic containers, one with a small amount of platinum and the other empty. According to Sako: a certain "supersensitive person" named T.I. was able to be right 70% of the time.

Apparently Sako believes that only people who already believe in paranormal phenomena are qualified to conduct research into them.

According to another account, much of the research focuses on ki, the mysterious spiritual energy that forms the basis of traditional oriental medicine. Based on the research, Sony has developed the Pulse Graph. It is claimed to be able to diagnose diseases with a 20-30% success rate.

Some Japanese scientists, given the present interest in cults in Japan, are quite unhappy about Sony treating this subject so seriously.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A963958260

The Sony Corporation has a four-member "esper" laboratory, standing for extrasensory perception and excitation research, that is trying to prove and measure such phenomena as telepathy and ki. The scientists try to measure temperature changes on the skin when a ki master exerts his force or try to see if someone with extrasensory perception can guess which one of two tubes is empty. Results so far are inconclusive.

"Our ultimate goal is to discover the mind or consciousness that all humanity, and the whole of creation, must possess -- to pursue the spirit or soul that exists in our universe," Yoichiro Sako, the Tokyo University engineering graduate who heads the lab, said in his founding prospectus.


http://www.mindpowernews.com/DreamFactory.htm

Closing the Dream Factory: Sony Proves That Psychic Powers Are Real

By Patrick Huyghe,
Fortean Times

Patrick Huyghe investigates the truth behind the closure of Sony's seven year paranormal research effort: A story of quiet success and corporate disappointment

This summer (1998), Japan's enormously successful electronics giant, the Sony Corporation, unloaded a bombshell when they announced that ESP exists.

They didn't exactly shout it from the rooftops, however. In fact, the findings of their seven year research programme into a variety of paranormal subjects caused nary a ripple in the summer's news. That's the way Sony wanted it, of course, and the way the company has been running its programme right from the beginning. Totally hush-hush.

Sony's jaw-dropping announcement in July was paired with another surprise. While psychic powers were real, said Sony spokesman Masanobu Sakaguchi, the company was closing down its ESP research facility. For those unfamiliar with the nitty-gritty of Sony's programme – which involved studies of qi, presentiment, synchronicity, mind-body interactions, consciousness, the sixth sense and supernatural phenomena – the visionary company left the distinct impression that it had suffered a sudden loss of vision. Here they were on top of a psychic Mt Everest and the company had decided not to capitalise on their monumental findings. Why?

Two years ago, in Las Vegas, I met Yoichiro Sako, the director of the Sony paranormal lab, heard his presentation before a group of sympathetic scientists, and spoke to him at length. This little peek into what Sony was doing – and more importantly, how it was doing it – shed some light on why it decided to pull back from the venture and close down the lab. Clearly, all was not well with the Sony programme.

Sony had shied away from discussing the lab – codenamed ESPER, which stands for "Extrasensory Perception and Excitation Research" – and preferred no publicity about it. There was no mention of it in the company's annual reports, on its web sites, or anywhere else for that matter. But coming to Vegas was Yoichiro Sako, the founder and director of the ESPER lab, to present an invited paper before the annual meeting of the Society for Scientific Exploration, an organisation consisting largely of scientists and engineers interested in UFOs, the paranormal, and other anomalous phenomena.

This was not the first time Sony let the ESPER cat out of the bag. They first came clean about its psi research in 1995 after the nerve gas subway attacks by the Aum Shinri Kyo cult aroused suspicions about occult practices. Despite Sony's reticence, the lab enjoyed widespread popularity in Japan at large, but not within the company itself. While some people in the company were interested in his work, Sako admitted to me that more than a few others thought his work was "crazy."

Yoshihiro Otsuki, a professor of physics at Waseda University, led a blistering attack against the lab when it became public. By pouring money into paranormal research, he said, "Sony might as well be denying that its products can be trusted." Otsuki went on to describe the journal which had published Sako's findings as an "occult journal."

The notion of a trendsetting company like Sony trying to develop psi-based products is rather refreshing – if not a little improbable. Why would one of the world's leading technology companies get involved in the marginal world of telepathy and clairvoyance? Certainly not for the greater good of humankind. No, Sony clearly intended to commercialise psi technology. Never mind that most scientists and engineers don't even believe psi exists; their skepticism would be moot if someone could create something – anything – useful based on psi.

A wealth of ideas based on psi technologies has been bandied about in the literature over the past couple of decades. These range from a wheelchair for quadriplegics controlled solely by intentional thought to a lock based on mental patterns rather than on fingerprints or retinal patterns. When I finally had the opportunity to ask Sako if Sony had any psi-based products in the works, he flashed a great big friendly smile – followed after a long delay by a vigorous shake of the head. There are no products. Not yet.

Sako was an unlikely man in an unlikely job. His background was strictly orthodox and, as far as I could determine, he had no more than a passing knowledge of paranormal subjects until his rise to psi fame at Sony. Sako was unwilling to say whether he possesses any psychic powers himself, although he admitted to a long interest in the subject.

In any case, he graduated from the prestigious Tokyo University with a degree in mathematics and computer science and joined Sony immediately after graduation. He first worked on CDs, CD-ROMs, and eight-millimetre video before moving on to voice recognition technology and other areas of artificial intelligence. After covering all these bases, there was only one place left to go – over the edge.

In 1989, Sako approached one of Sony's two founding fathers, Masaru Ibuka, about starting a special department to study the "human science," or bioenergy, which the Chinese call "qi." (pronounced ch'i).

Sako's proposal to study bioenergy at Sony was not a shot in the dark. It was no secret that Ibuka was interested in traditional medicine, as well as ESP. Indeed, back in 1988, Ibuka had established the Pulse Graph Research Department, which has worked on a device that claims to identify health problems by measuring the pulse. In any case, Sako's hunch proved correct and by 1990 he was doing qi research at Sony's Corporate Research Laboratory, measuring pulse, skin temperature, and other physiological changes that take place in the body while qi masters tried to alter a patient's qi energy.

By 1 November 1991, Sako had convinced the Sony founders to establish a separate laboratory, ESPER, where he could continue his qi research and range into psi topics as well. Sako was installed as the director of the five-person lab, no doubt a mere closet operation within the enormous Sony universe. But the fact that this research was taking place at all and had been budgeted – though to what extent no one would say – indicated that Sony believed Sako's paranormal research had some potential.

Clearly, however, Sony was confused over the lab's role within the company during its seven-year existence. On 1 January 1993, Sony established the Research Institute of Wisdom, which oversaw the work both of the ESPER Laboratory and the Pulse Graph Research Department. Then on 1 February 1995, the ESPER Lab was split off from the Research Institute of Wisdom and became part of the company's R&D Division.

As a long-time fan of all things Sony, I expected to be wowed by Sako's presentation in Las Vegas, but the abstract for 'Challenging an Unknown Information System' – with its emphasis on "paradigm," "turning points" and the "new age" – sounded like gobbledegook. I'd heard this kind of talk from parapsychologists, both university-affiliated and less, for decades, and I expected more from Sony.

But Sako's talk proved both surprising and in a way rather amusing. "If it is difficult for you to understand my talk due to my poor English," he began, "please understand my talk using telepathy." Sako then he pulled out his first viewgraph. Viewgraphs? Overhead projectors? This was Sony? I had expected a laptop-controlled whiz-bang digital extravaganza. I wondered if Sako could possibly be uncomfortable with technology and I noticed immediately that he did not wear eyeglasses or contacts either, though he seemed to need them. Nor did he wear a digital watch – or any watch for that matter. Could he be technophobic, I wondered? Would this carry over into his research on matters parapsychological?

But viewgraphs it was, and the first one – "Why?" written in large letters – was perfect. This was the burning question on everyone's mind, of course; why was one of the world's premier electronics giants researching psi? The answer was less than perfect. "It's quite simple," said Sako, dressed in appropriate executive attire – dark blue suit, blue shirt, and a tie striped blue, red and gold – "It's a Sony." Sako sounded like he was trying to force a square peg down a round hole. "I think Sony's spirit is making dreams," he continued, "rather than making money." Sure, I thought, and Earth is the centre of the universe.

The ESPER lab's greatest success, Sako went on to explain, had come in the field of clairvoyance, the ability to get information about physical objects or distant events that is beyond the reach of the ordinary senses. In one series of experiments, clairvoyance was defined as the ability to "see" letters and drawings on a target piece of paper without the use of sight. One subject was a 10-year-old schoolgirl. Children, Sako explained, are better at such things as clairvoyance than adults. Sako then described his amazing experiment. He would take a piece of paper about 1.5in (3.8cm) square and write or draw something on it. He would then fold it once, twice, three times and then crumple it up. Afterward the experimenter would hand the tiny wad of paper with the target on it to the subject to hold pinched between two fingers, or place the piece of paper in the subject's ear. Sako did not smile. Was he pulling our legs?

At first I thought this must be a relic behaviour from using a Sony Walkman but, after further reflection – and a look at a paper written by Sako on 'Clairvoyance and Synesthesia' in Journal of International Society of Life Information Science (March 1997) – I concluded that this experimental method must be based on the belief that clairvoyance could be due to synæsthesia, a crossing of the senses [see FT113:28-31]. Perhaps the ear could 'see' what was written on the paper? But Sako's own research on the subject showed only the slimmest evidence of synæsthesia in clairvoyance. In a total of 20 trials, there were only two examples for which the first sensation of the target was not visual, but hearing and smell.

The best method, Sako told the audience, was "in the ear." We were into deep weirdness here. And when Sako said best, he meant best. In 35 trials, the recognition rate was an astonishing 97.1 per cent; a success rate unheard of in western parapsychology experiments. There were 18 perfectly matching responses, noted Sako, including the equation "1+ 2= 5" (a result which led Sako to comment "It's wrong, but right".) Sixteen responses were so "closely matching" that most western experimenters would likely call them perfect hits. There was one false response. It was too good to be true.

How did they do this? Sako described the nine step process successful children seemed to use in clairvoyance. 1) Close the eyes, but this was not necessary. 2) Concentrate. 3) Imagine unfolding the piece of paper, but this also was not necessary. 4) A light then appears in the middle of their forehead. 5) The light expands as the surroundings darken. 6) A letter appears within the light. 7) Shift the light or letter to one side in order to read more of the image, like moving the beam of a spotlight across a billboard. 8) Memorise each letter. 9) Write them down. Easy, isn't it?

The simpler the letters and drawings, Sako told us, the easier they are to sense. But the trials were made more difficult, he said, when the target pieces of paper were put in an envelope (though, oddly, it was still possible for the subject to sense the target in the envelope when the room was darkened). This was big news, at least to me. Why this should be true poses a real problem. For decades one of the most solid results of western parapsychological research has been that psi abilities persist regardless of space or time considerations – whether the subject or target is shielded in any way, even using lead chambers. So how could a measly envelope prevent psi?

There was one obvious explanation: placing the targets in an envelope thwarted cheating by the subjects. When I questioned Sako about this later, he insisted that no cheating was involved; the subject's tests were all videotaped. But was this enough, I wondered. One scientist who overheard Sako's remark thought that a magician should be present to ensure that no trickery was taking place, and many others expressed skepticism of Sako's results. "In a science laboratory," a professor of astronomy told me afterward, "you look out for a perfect score. If it is, then you know cheating is involved." The ESPER Lab procedures also raised serious doubts.

For others, however, Sako's results made perfect sense. Bill Higgins of PEAR Inc. in New Jersey, a company that is itself attempting to create commercial products based on psi technology – see FT106:28-31 – thought Sako was onto something. "He's shown the importance of the tactile sense," said an excited Higgins, who was planning to repeat the Sako experiments at home with his own children.

But Sako had also told the audience that clairvoyance works without having the subject touch the paper at all. This seemed to contradict his work in non-visual colour recognition, described in another paper published in the Journal of International Society of Life Information Science, which hints that there might be something to touch sight or "derma-sight."


For me, the really surprising thing about the incredible success of ESPER's clairvoyance results, was its apparent denial of technology. For a company like Sony, the incongruity of the situation was striking. In the western world, modern parapsychological research is the epitome of highly controlled hi-tech studies in which the experimenters write themselves out of the experiment. Sako's approach was so personal (becoming friends with his sensitives rather than keeping an objective distance) and low-tech that I wondered for an instant if he was not hiding Sony's true psi research from us.

Again, I questioned Sako; his reply was disarming and direct: "Yes, it's low-tech. Hi-tech is not necessary." Of course, whether the technology is low or hi matters little, as long as there is a product. But Sony had no product in mind, Sako admitted, and neither did he. And that, it now turns out, seven years after the ESPER lab began its work, was the rub.

"We found out experimentally that ESP exists," Sony spokesman Masanobu told Benjamin Fulford of the South China Morning Post for a story that appeared on 7 July, "but that any practical application of this knowledge is not likely in the foreseeable future." And so, without the promise of marketable products, Sony decided to shut down its ESPER lab.

The decision seemed to make perfect business sense; but the truth is that Sony's vaunted "vision factory" had come up short, without foresight about a subject that demanded it most. Perhaps the real reason the ESPER lab got the boot lies elsewhere. Sony's corporate culture was deeply embarrassed by the research and, when Sony founding father Masaru Ibuka died on 19 December 1997, the writing was on the lab wall.


I wonder if these Harvard researchers realize that by claiming they have demonstrated that psi phenomena don't exist: they are implicitly calling ESPER a hoax, they are saying the military wasn't really doing remote viewing research with all that money, they are calling the grey parrot's owner a fraud, they are calling the Duke lab's studies bogus, and they are telling the number of people who've had unsolicited encounters with ESP that they are wrong and they didn't really experience what they thought they experienced. Which is quite a lot to imply, isn't it? I think they have a responsibility as citizens to confront all that, and it begins where their responsibility as scientists to carry out experiments in a vacuum ends.
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Postby theeKultleeder » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:17 pm

FourthBase wrote:I wonder if these Harvard researchers realize that by claiming they have demonstrated that psi phenomena don't exist: they are implicitly calling ESPER a hoax, they are saying the military wasn't really doing remote viewing research with all that money, they are calling the grey parrot's owner a fraud, they are calling the Duke lab's studies bogus, and they are telling the number of people who've had unsolicited encounters with ESP that they are wrong and they didn't really experience what they thought they experienced. Which is quite a lot to imply, isn't it? I think they have a responsibility as citizens to confront all that, and it begins where their responsibility as scientists to carry out experiments in a vacuum ends.


Well, it's more data to add to the databanks.

What if the US has the awesomest most professor-x psychics on the planet, and this study is designed to fool people into thinking otherwise?

Huh? We are conspiracy theorists, aren't we? :wink:

And this: they are saying the military wasn't really doing remote viewing research with all that money is a huge and unsustainable leap of logic. It's like saying that if the first atom bomb failed, then the one that succeeded proved they weren't really researching how to make an atom bomb in the first place!

This is how science works. They have a responsibility to design ethical experiments and to follow all the standard practices of good science. Their methodology can be criticized and their results can be meta-analyzed along with similar experiments. A different methodology might produce different results, and then that methodology can be criticized too.

Thank chaos that the nature of the mind is such that it cannot be pinned down in a lab. The brain, yes. The mind... where is it?


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Postby FourthBase » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:22 pm

And this: they are saying the military wasn't really doing remote viewing research with all that money is a huge and unsustainable leap of logic. It's like saying that if the first atom bomb failed, then the one that succeeded proved they weren't really researching how to make an atom bomb in the first place!


They spent many millions of dollars over many years. They just don't do that without having an idea that there is some kind of reality to what they're hypothesizing. If the first atom bomb failed, they still knew for goddamned sure that there was some reality in the atom bomb hypothesis. Re: ESP and remote viewing and whatnot, you're talking about the idea of there being zero reality to it...and many millions of dollars, many years. It's not huge, it's very sustainable, and it's not even a leap.
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Postby theeKultleeder » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:27 pm

Yeah, it's a huge leap of logic to say that the latest and greatest lab experiment in psi somehow proves that the USG "wasn't really" doing research into psi a few decades ago!
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Postby Project Willow » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:32 pm

A little rebuttal, although not lacking in controversy itself:

Brain region learns to anticipate risk, provides early warnings, suggests new study in Science

http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/4804.html


Think someone's staring at you? 'Sixth sense' may be biological

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/lifestyle/115082_stare01.shtml

http://www.sheldrake.org/papers/Staring/sofbstat_abs.html
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Postby FourthBase » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:36 pm

theeKultleeder wrote:Yeah, it's a huge leap of logic to say that the latest and greatest lab experiment in psi somehow proves that the USG "wasn't really" doing research into psi a few decades ago!


Yeah, I don't think you get it. I'm saying that if such a simple experiment decisively proves that psi phenomena isn't real, then there's no way the military didn't already know that psi phenomena wasn't real before they started funneling millions and millions of dollars over many years into a project ostensibly devoted to researching psi phenomena. I don't know how you think the military operates, but I guarantee you it does not waste resources of that magnitude like that.

Knowing that these two Harvard researchers are well aware of the evidence that stands to counter their assertion that psi phenomena do not exist, it's hard for me to imagine that they would make such an assertion without either 1) being personally convinced that their experiment covers all the bases and finally proves that psi phenomena are an illusion or 2) lying for some reason. If it's 1) then either a) despite their conviction based on the sound science they believe they practiced, they are nevertheless wrong and psi phenomena do exist or b) psi phenomena, in fact, do not exist. If it's 1b) then the military was not conducting the research in psi phenomena they claim they were, and the military psi projects were a front for something else.
Last edited by FourthBase on Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Eldritch » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:45 pm

FourthBase wrote:I'm saying that if such a simple experiment decisively proves that psi phenomena isn't real…

That's a very big "if."

From what I can see here, nothing has been "decisively proven," one way or another—and for many of the reasons Crow and others have mentioned here already.
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Postby theeKultleeder » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:04 pm

FourthBase wrote:
theeKultleeder wrote:Yeah, it's a huge leap of logic to say that the latest and greatest lab experiment in psi somehow proves that the USG "wasn't really" doing research into psi a few decades ago!


Yeah, I don't think you get it. I'm saying that if such a simple experiment decisively proves that psi phenomena isn't real, then there's no way the military didn't already know that psi phenomena wasn't real before they started funneling millions and millions of dollars over many years into a project ostensibly devoted to researching psi phenomena. I don't know how you think the military operates, but I guarantee you it does not waste resources of that magnitude like that.



I do know massive amounts of money are funneled into one or the other project, sometimes massively failing projects. It is part of the military-industrial complex, in which people make a whole lot of money studying this or that for the military.

I also know that the military is composed of individuals, most of whom aren't radically different from, let us say, normal human beings. So if some dude inclined to believe in psychic phenomena had some pull and wanted it done, it got done.

Who funded the Harvard study? What makes you think the scientists involved have any clue about GRILLFLAME and so forth? If they were going to "debunk" that stuff, why didn't they use RV protocols?

The logic of the argument is weak here. Let's take a look:

I'm saying that if such a simple experiment decisively proves that psi phenomena isn't real, then there's no way the military didn't already know that psi phenomena wasn't real before they started funneling millions and millions of dollars over many years into a project ostensibly devoted to researching psi phenomena.

You are saying here that a study in the future should have affected a project in the past. Therefore, the military must have had some powerful clairvoyants, and furthermore, this contradiction causes the argument to collapse!

If such a "simple" experiment" proves anything at all, why wasn't this particular methodology employed decades ago? Two reasons: they did not have the MRI technology we have today, and scientists and researchers are people who set up an experiment as an essentially creative act; someone else's methodology may not occur to a particular scientist.

And yeah, the military does waste resources. It's how the crooks make money. Have you been following recent events lately?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 251738.DTL

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Corpo ... Fraud.html
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Postby FourthBase » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:23 pm

I do know massive amounts of money are funneled into one or the other project, sometimes massively failing projects. It is part of the military-industrial complex, in which people make a whole lot of money studying this or that for the military.


#1 - Which failing projects? You mean, "failing" projects like Project Stormfury? Or are you only talking about projects that genuinely fail? Regardless, again: I guarantee you that even those genuinely failing projects were based on principles that the military knew were based in some reality, so for example a project for a new fighter jet could fail...but the principle of flight is still real, and the project never would have gone forward if the military wasn't assured that the principle of flight was real. If the principle of psi phenomena is not real, and its unrealness can be ascertained by just two researchers at Harvard conducting a simple experiment, then the military would have known long before they started funding research into psi phenomena that the fundamental principle of psi phenomena, the possibility of psi phenomena, was unreal.

#2 - If it's making people a whole lot of money, then it's not really failing now, is it? That's the sole purpose of some projects, the failure or success of which is irrelevant.

I also know that the military is composed of individuals, most of whom aren't radically different from, let us say, normal human beings. So if some dude inclined to believe in psychic phenomena had some pull and wanted it done, it got done.


Not for that kind of bank, not for that long.

Who funded the Harvard study? What makes you think the scientists involved have any clue about GRILLFLAME and so forth? If they were going to "debunk" that stuff, why didn't they use RV protocols?


I've met Moulton a few times, at parties. He seems to know what's up. If I see him again and get the chance to talk about this stuff, I'll be sure to ask him. The impression I've had is that he's the kind of person who personally hopes ESP exists, but that's just an impression. He's an interesting dude, fun to be around.

I do not, however, know who funded the study.

The logic of the argument is weak here. Let's take a look:

You are saying here that a study in the future should have affected a project in the past. Therefore, the military must have had some powerful clairvoyants, and furthermore, this contradiction causes the argument to collapse!


Um, no. See below.

If such a "simple" experiment" proves anything at all, why wasn't this particular methodology employed decades ago? Two reasons: they did not have the MRI technology we have today, and scientists and researchers are people who set up an experiment as an essentially creative act; someone else's methodology may not occur to a particular scientist.


There is no way that if psi phenomena were unreal that it wouldn't have been discoverable 40 years ago. There is no way that using current MRI technology would have been the only way in the last 40 years to determine whether psi phenomena is real.

And yeah, the military does waste resources. It's how the crooks make money. Have you been following recent events lately?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 251738.DTL

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Corpo ... Fraud.html


If that money goes in someone's pocket, then it's not wasted. If a RV project was a front, while it could have been a front for some diabolical black ops, it also could have just been a front for exactly that kind of fraud.
Last edited by FourthBase on Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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