Questioning Consciousness

Moderators: DrVolin, Elvis, Jeff

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby tazmic » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:11 am

Related, from the excellent, commited, materialist blog:

larval subjects - towards-a-materialist-theory-of-universals

Concluding:

"What we get here, I hope, are the rudiments of a materialist theory of universals and how it is possible to explain, at least, the cognition of universal relations beyond the particulars (individual entities) that populate the world. The next step would consist in showing how grammatical or syntactical relations can emerge within these nominalistic structures (something already worked out by Lacan in “The Purloined Letter”) that give us invariant relations or structures such as those found in logic and mathematics. The final step would then consist in showing how these objects that function, through undermining, as standard-bearers for more concrete objects, can function as “attractors” within material systems, allowing us to understand how a physical or material system can begin generating values, teleological behavior, or self-regulation."
"It ever was, and is, and shall be, ever-living fire, in measures being kindled and in measures going out." - Heraclitus

"There aren't enough small numbers to meet the many demands made of them." - Strong Law of Small Numbers
User avatar
tazmic
 
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:58 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Hammer of Los » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:30 am

...

All concepts become meaningful only in relation.

Saying all is matter, or all is mind, is tantamount to saying the same thing.

it seems easier to trace the origin of the physical world back to information and sensations than it is to do the reverse.

so why is there a consensus that matter causes consciousness and not the other way around?


Does consciousness arise within the world, or does the world arise within consciousness?

Are not beliefs about the world derived from the consciousness? Is not the felt quality of experience the starting point of all our ruminations?

I agree with what Ben said too.

But you have to examine these things through meditation I would say.

The action of the material intellect has serous difficulties examining these matters.

The way of the intellect is a very difficult one, the paths of meditation and devotion are easier.

...
Hammer of Los
 
Posts: 3309
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:48 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Julian the Apostate » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:18 pm

Sounder » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:26 pm wrote:
consciousness might not so much ‘arise’ from the brain, as much as the brain being part of an interface system that provides access to externally generated signals (vibrations).


That's the direction I currently tend to lean
Julian the Apostate
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Hammer of Los » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:55 pm

...

You can tuna radio.

I trust that is sufficiently brief and cryptic for bph.

Oh, and its really lovely to see you Julian!

...
Hammer of Los
 
Posts: 3309
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:48 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby DrEvil » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:35 pm

I think consciousness is overrated tbh. Most of what we do we do better if we don't think about it. Learning a new skill is hard, up until the point where you don't have to think about it anymore, and suddenly it's easy. An everyday version of being in "the zone".

How often are we actively conscious of what we're doing? We don't think about moving our arm to take a sip of coffee, moving our legs to walk, playing an instrument, driving a car etc. We only get good at those things after years of practice, imprinting the relevant patterns on our subconscious mind.

As for subjective experience, it is what it is - subjective. I think of it as internal state representations, status messages basically. Feeling content? Our subjective experience of the status message "All systems nominal".

But this is of course my subjective view on things, so don't take my word for it. :)
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
User avatar
DrEvil
 
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:37 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby slimmouse » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:37 pm

Hey folks, thanks for this thread.

Big thanks to Hol for this...

Does consciousness arise within the world, or does the world arise within consciousness?


So there you have it folks.

The materialist might ask "The chicken or the egg ?"

The true spiritualist would most likely have a different interpretation
slimmouse
 
Posts: 6129
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 7:41 am
Location: Just outside of you.
Blog: View Blog (3)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby chump » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:45 pm

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Reality emanates from thought, and the brain is the conduit of those ideas. I can't tell you how many times I thought something was going to happen, and it did. Solid matter is a contrivance of thought. The Secrets Are In Plain Sight... Those are the rules. Reality feels real because we designed it that way in this Game we invented to entertain ourselv. I'm pretty sure that you can find about anything you can imagine in this world. It's hard to imagine that you may have planned your life - hardship and all - to reap the experience for some reason you don't understand right now. That's why "you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find - you get what you need."

The government initiative to map the brain is a scary thought for obvious reasons... Though I imagine that Humans have long been bred into this physical world , like dogs, horses, cattle, or any other domesticated breed; and a schematic of the mind has long been in use.

Just my opinion of course. No evidence to back it up.
User avatar
chump
 
Posts: 2166
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:28 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby minime » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:06 pm

What is THE forum to go to when RIers want to discuss topics like this one?
User avatar
minime
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Julian the Apostate » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:09 pm

Hammer of Los » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:55 pm wrote:...

Oh, and its really lovely to see you Julian!

...



Well thanks, nice to see you too :hug1:
Julian the Apostate
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Sounder » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:16 pm

What is THE forum to go to when RIers want to discuss topics like this one?


well I say, lets find out minime, come on an jump in, the water's fine.
Sounder
 
Posts: 3918
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:49 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby DrEvil » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:27 pm

slimmouse » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:37 pm wrote:Hey folks, thanks for this thread.

Big thanks to Hol for this...

Does consciousness arise within the world, or does the world arise within consciousness?


So there you have it folks.

The materialist might ask "The chicken or the egg ?"

The true spiritualist would most likely have a different interpretation


Actually, as a materialist I'd rather ask "Why eggs?", and then go figure it out. :basicsmile
And birds are descendants of dinosaurs, so why not "The T-Rex or the egg?" ?

As for consciousness creating reality, it's an intriguing thought, but it raises a few issues.
If we create reality, why is it so damn incomprehensible, and if consciousness creates reality, who's to say it's our consciousness doing it? The universe is big, and saying that it's there just because of us sounds to me like human exceptionalism.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
User avatar
DrEvil
 
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:37 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby tapitsbo » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:47 pm

Isn't it possible to see materialism as correct but only in terms of describing the results of certain activities? What about the foundational standpoint that we direct these ideas from? Behaviorists if I understand it correctly said it was impossible to speak about anything subjective. But I think most people would say the objective is rooted in the subjective, which *does* count for something.

I feel like saying that the troubling situation we're in now is a result of the Enlightenment is almost like saying all the crimes of Christian churches are to be blamed on Christ. This thread has made me wonder whether the reduction of the physical world to its smallest parts is almost like an outgrowth of the religious impulse to devalue the sensual aspect of the physical world which we encounter immediately. Sometimes it seems as though the human race is trapped in belief systems created by "initiates" who all died out, leaving everyone else in a state of self-imposed powerlessness.

I feel as though the "path of meditation and devotion" referenced by HoL was once seen in somewhat scientific terms - as a process to be tested subjectively by those who engaged in it. I feel as though this can go wrong all to easily as well (not referring to you HoL)
tapitsbo
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:58 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby tazmic » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:34 pm

Hammer of Los » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:30 pm wrote:Saying all is matter, or all is mind, is tantamount to saying the same thing.

Yes it is. Like saying everything is an illusion (ignoring the obvious questions "for who?" and "compared to what?"), I can't see it being, if you really mean everything, any different from saying everything is real.

Of course you can slide around this, saying you meant every thing... But people who say this tend to talk also about nothingness. Showing they never really stopped thinking about things after all.

But I digress. My point is that in our current historical context 'all is matter' means quite a few specific things regarding what nature is NOT. And these do not necessarily map to 'all is mind'.

Matter is not seen to have any essential teleology, for example. That's a significant metaphysical claim.

But I'm quite happy to say that everything is material as long as we agree we don't know what matter is :wink

Which of course we do not.
"It ever was, and is, and shall be, ever-living fire, in measures being kindled and in measures going out." - Heraclitus

"There aren't enough small numbers to meet the many demands made of them." - Strong Law of Small Numbers
User avatar
tazmic
 
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:58 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby tapitsbo » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:40 pm

seems to me like the question isn't only what's real, it's what parts of reality are considered worthwhile
tapitsbo
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:58 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Hammer of Los » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:39 pm

...

I studied philosophy of mind for a long time, you know, not that it counts for much.

DrEvil wrote:If we create reality, why is it so damn incomprehensible, and if consciousness creates reality, who's to say it's our consciousness doing it? The universe is big, and saying that it's there just because of us sounds to me like human exceptionalism.


Is consciousness a "thing" that can be possessed? "My" consciousness, or "your" consciousness?

What is this thing? Who is it possessed by?

The buddhists say that clinging to the concept of an independently existing self is delusion.

Within the field of awareness, we must for now say "my" or "your" awareness, thoughts and emotions arise. The function of memory provides the illusion of continuity. Thinking about it, we find we identify ourselves with the content of "our" consciousness, which of course changes all the time.

This is the illusion of permanence which is the root of suffering in the buddhist philosophy.

From this perspective mind or "psychic matter" begins to look like something of a substrate, perhaps universal.

A medium.

The energetic ether and associated "electromagnetic" and increasingly subtle spheres which could not be accurately described by the term "electromagnetic," since they are so refined as to be beyond anything even partially within the physical spheres, represent the higher worlds.

No doubt there are invisible world(s) around us currently unbeknownst to "science."

tazmic wrote:But I'm quite happy to say that everything is material as long as we agree we don't know what matter is :wink

Which of course we do not.


That was my point exactly.

A rose by any other name.

And finally;

tapitsbo wrote:I feel like saying that the troubling situation we're in now is a result of the Enlightenment is almost like saying all the crimes of Christian churches are to be blamed on Christ. This thread has made me wonder whether the reduction of the physical world to its smallest parts is almost like an outgrowth of the religious impulse to devalue the sensual aspect of the physical world which we encounter immediately. Sometimes it seems as though the human race is trapped in belief systems created by "initiates" who all died out, leaving everyone else in a state of self-imposed powerlessness.

I feel as though the "path of meditation and devotion" referenced by HoL was once seen in somewhat scientific terms - as a process to be tested subjectively by those who engaged in it. I feel as though this can go wrong all to easily as well (not referring to you HoL).


Ha ha ha.

Funny, funny!

Listen, ain't no-one gone wrong like I gone wrong.

But I'm enjoying your contributions!

...
Hammer of Los
 
Posts: 3309
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:48 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests