Questioning Consciousness

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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Ben D » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:54 pm

tapitsbo » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:40 am wrote:seems to me like the question isn't only what's real, it's what parts of reality are considered worthwhile

Reality is an indivisible unity, so all is real, the so called parts are only relative differentiated aspects as perceived by relative differentiated transient centres of sentience, hence any judgements as to what particular aspect of the whole is worthwhile or not is purely arbitrary.

Having said that, and speaking as one of those differentiated transient centres of sentience, I consider life itself, and the adventure to be, to discover what and who I really am in the context of the whole of reality, the most worthwhile.
There is That which was not born, nor created, nor evolved. If it were not so, there would never be any refuge from being born, or created, or evolving. That is the end of suffering. That is God**.

** or Nirvana, Allah, Brahman, Tao, etc...
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Hammer of Los » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:15 pm

...

That's the ticket.

We'll transform ourselves and the planet will follow suit.

All that is now real was once merely imagined.

Fancy that.

I only adopt the language of materialism out of my sufferance of fools.

Dear fools all.

Let me tell you.

No esotericist was I.

Neither occultist, nor ritualist.

I was schooled in the Western analytic tradition.

I liked Berkeley and Hume.

And that yank, James.

I also studied western mystics, Boehme, Swedenborg, Steiner, the Theosophists et al.

Then I read Fritjof Capra of the Esalen Institute.

Holy cow!

Wisdom of the East!

Summat in it.

Study of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Daoism, Vedic scriptures, etc, all the various guru's and god men.

Mix in the wierdness of the internet plus ufos and folk lore and conspiracy theory and mk....

Gets real muddy.

Some people think that knowledge can come by direct transmission.

...
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby tapitsbo » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:34 pm

I do believe I've been on the receiving end of at least one transmission - making good or bad of it is another matter.

I'm not convinced that the "source" of these things always cares much about what I might call good or bad.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Hammer of Los » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:36 pm

...

That is such an intriguing comment.

Care to elaborate?

PM's better?

Maybe email even.

It's difficult to speak of such experiences, I know.

I suffered periods of odd physical pains and emotionally and psychologically my life was torn apart.

But I could say so much more.

...
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Hammer of Los » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:49 pm

...

Me! wrote:Within the field of awareness, we must for now say "my" or "your" awareness, thoughts and emotions arise.* The function of memory provides the illusion of continuity. Thinking about it, we find we identify ourselves with the content of "our" consciousness, which of course changes all the time.


* Of course, it is also within the field of conscious experience that physical "things" arise and pass away.

The "physical thing" has an existence which is inferred from the collection of sensations.

We might say we live in a world of sensations which arrange themselves, or rather which our minds, or perhaps the mind, arrange into the concepts we term "physical things."

Yeah, clear as mud.

Perhaps reality is a collection of self-creating, self-arranging sensations.

But that is a barren conception.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth.

Now me, I found myself slap bang in the middle of Patrick Harpur's Daemonic Reality.

...
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby tapitsbo » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:19 pm

i pm'd you Los to save this thread from the ramblings I was on the verge of. lol
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Hammer of Los » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:55 am

...

It seems to me it is the sensation that is given to us in its immediacy.

Then once sensation arises, the material intellect begins the work of descrimination and judgement.

Leading to division.

Of one thing from another.

Thus the unnumbered things in Heaven and Earth.

Awareness is like the light piercing the darkness.

Within that Illumination many things can be seen.

But I sometimes think one ought to be careful where one points the torch.

...
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Ben D » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:01 pm

Hammer of Los » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:55 am wrote:...
Then once sensation arises, the material intellect begins the work of descrimination and judgement.

Leading to division.

Of one thing from another.
Thus the unnumbered things in Heaven and Earth.

Awareness is like the light piercing the darkness.

Within that Illumination many things can be seen.

But I sometimes think one ought to be careful where one points the torch.

...

Beautifully put Hol...speaking personally, when the light with no off switch pierced the darkness (the conceptual model of reality on which my life had been governed up to that time), the unnumbered things that suddenly came into vision and hence into actual reality, shattered my mortal mind into infinite pieces...the reintegration process is like being born all over again...a death and rebirth that was painful beyond belief

My deepest compassion and love to all who make the journey...
There is That which was not born, nor created, nor evolved. If it were not so, there would never be any refuge from being born, or created, or evolving. That is the end of suffering. That is God**.

** or Nirvana, Allah, Brahman, Tao, etc...
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby conniption » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:17 pm

Hammer of Los » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:15 pm wrote:...

That's the ticket.

We'll transform ourselves and the planet will follow suit.

All that is now real was once merely imagined.

Fancy that.

I only adopt the language of materialism out of my sufferance of fools.

Dear fools all.

I feel offended, somehow.

Are you saying, we're all fools?


Let me tell you.

No esotericist was I.

Neither occultist, nor ritualist.

I was schooled in the Western analytic tradition.

I liked Berkeley and Hume.

And that yank, James.

Would that be William James?

It is wrong always, everywhere, and for everyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.

William James
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... U1UVCTb.99


I also studied western mystics, Boehme, Swedenborg, Steiner, the Theosophists et al.

Then I read Fritjof Capra of the Esalen Institute.

Holy cow!

Wisdom of the East!

Summat in it.

Study of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Daoism, Vedic scriptures, etc, all the various guru's and god men.

Mix in the wierdness of the internet plus ufos and folk lore and conspiracy theory and mk....

Gets real muddy.

Muddy, muddy, muddy, muddy, muddy.

Some people think that knowledge can come by direct transmission.

Good luck with that...

...


oops... Clicked on... Submit.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Hammer of Los » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:09 pm

...

Don't be offended.

We are all fools.

But don't be getting ideas above your station.

I am the biggest fool here.

Yes, William James.

And I shall happily accept your blessings of good luck!

Thank you!

Best of luck to you also!

...
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby coffin_dodger » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:12 pm

Ben D » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:01 am wrote:
Hammer of Los » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:55 am wrote:...
Then once sensation arises, the material intellect begins the work of descrimination and judgement.

Leading to division.

Of one thing from another.
Thus the unnumbered things in Heaven and Earth.

Awareness is like the light piercing the darkness.

Within that Illumination many things can be seen.

But I sometimes think one ought to be careful where one points the torch.

...

Beautifully put Hol...speaking personally, when the light with no off switch pierced the darkness (the conceptual model of reality on which my life had been governed up to that time), the unnumbered things that suddenly came into vision and hence into actual reality, shattered my mortal mind into infinite pieces...the reintegration process is like being born all over again...a death and rebirth that was painful beyond belief

My deepest compassion and love to all who make the journey...


HoL and BenD - thanks.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby minime » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:25 pm

Then I read Fritjof Capra of the Esalen Institute.

Holy cow!

Wisdom of the East!

Summat in it.

Study of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Daoism, Vedic scriptures, etc, all the various guru's and god men.


Image
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Sounder » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:47 am

I cannot log on as this is being written, so this is without the benefit of some direct references.

While I enjoy material such as the you-tube that Ben D posted and can identify quite well with Buddhism, I take a different tack with regard to such things as ‘transcendence’ of the limitations of our conceptual categories, the value of ‘Guru’s, and perhaps even the usefulness of enlightenment aspirations.

Even if one sees clearly the conditioned nature of most expressions of our being, still one must interact on the terms of conditioning elements of ones surroundings anyway. To me the issue is less to do with any ‘problem’ of conditioning, but rather a problem having to do with a dysfunctional kind of conditioning.

Guru’s fall down when or if they imply that the student needs them to access subtle realms. The student determines the nature and evolution of his/her connection to Source, not the teacher.

Look, we can determine with fair confidence, the missing element in our modern narrative by identifying the element that has been most consistently suppressed historically by normative thinking and established power structures. That element is what used to be called enthusiasm, really a direct unmediated connection to Source. In my estimation, this is the one thing that may threaten the grip that the PTMB seem to hold on this world.

We need a common realization that the source for useful creativity is the individuated self rather than the socially conditioned egoic representation of ones self.


Now if the guru’s wanted to be really useful they would do more to formulate their understanding into forms that serve the general population rather than (usually) elitist seekers.

More like Tesla maybe.

Also consciousness is a limiter in that it uses conceptual structures to interpret information content of our perceptions.

We need this limiter, -to many fuckin signals otherwise. :wink
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby DrEvil » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:48 pm

Also consciousness is a limiter in that it uses conceptual structures to interpret information content of our perceptions.


This. :thumbsup
Our minds are constrained by all kinds of limitations.
- Our eyes can only pick up a very limited part of the spectrum, and only in a small area straight ahead. Our peripheral vision isn't even in color (Grab some pens with different colored caps and ask someone to hold one up in your peripheral vision, then say what color it is), and our eyes are bouncing around like crazy, requiring image-stabilization to even look coherent.

- Our ears too have a very limited range. No subsonic or ultrasonic sounds here thank you very much.

- Touch: Ask someone to poke you on your thigh with one or two pencils with you not looking. You won't be able to tell the difference. Temperature range is also very limited.

- Smell and taste. Not too shabby, but can't compete with say, a dog or a shark.

- Language is woefully inefficient. Can't remember the exact bandwidth, but it's pretty bad, and different languages give different conceptual frameworks, so in many cases they're not even compatible.

And not to mention all the senses we don't even have. We can't orient ourselves to the earth's magnetic field for instance (At least not consciously. Could be why some people have a great sense of direction I guess), and there's a whole host of senses out there that we don't have.

Then there's the universe itself, 96% of which we don't even know what is, and the fact that pretty much every inch of it will kill us instantly and unpleasantly.

And timescales: The universe is almost 14 billion years old. We have been around for about 200K years. We're not even the blink of an eye.

Yup, we're special. :)

Oh, and a quick dig at those waiting for a spiritual transformation of humanity: sounds very... transhumanist (OOGA-BOOGA!).
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