Questioning Consciousness

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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Sounder » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:07 am

Ben D wrote...
Hi Sounder..for the record, the real purpose of religious teaching, despite it having little traction among most of the human religious institutions of the world, is to prepare and guide willing and worthy souls to realize a state of non-material existence in the here and now, not in any conceptual future.

I find notions of worthiness to be closely connected to unfounded egoistic pretenses.

And yes, I have closely watched the process unfold among several 'gifted' friends and acquaintances.

That worthiness business also strikes me as being a bit Patriarchal and approval seeking.


So best not harbour the erroneous conceptual understanding that enlightenment implies the potential to interfere materially for the good, in the ongoing evolutionary progress and drama of the affairs of mankind.

First off, try, try, try to not speak down to me by suggesting that my understanding of these matters is merely conceptual.

I find your use of language and the conceptual baggage it carries to be interesting.

While I don’t think much about enlightenment, still the realization events in my life have provided a very useful method for improving my relationships and integration with my surrounding and experience.

My thinking starts with a few working assumptions with a primary one being that the spiritual and the material are the same thing.

Next I consider that if one has more accurate information regarding the nature of reality and ones relationship to said reality, then one is potentially able to make better decisions and hence live a better life.

I also think that there is no essential or autonomous I, and that reality is expressed on a continuum rather than as separated ‘realms’ of existence that (are made to) seem to be at perpetual war with each other.

Because I feel we ‘create’ each other and our relationship to reality through our various modes of interaction, it follows that improving modes of interaction can improve ones overall life.

For me, this involves ongoing ‘training’ techniques to ameliorate for certain shortcomings of personality.

So I work on tonal control and articulation in order to internalize the idea that what I ‘get’ is a reflection of what I put out.

This may be why Sounder was picked as my intertubes name.

The methods formulated via results of (long time ago) ‘realization’ experiences, more like revelations of the depth of my ignorance than like the ‘enlightenment’ experiences that some describe, have over time provided tools that grace my life and experience with more beauty, wonder and depth than I could begin to imagine when I first asked the question as a child; But how can it be that anything can be anything at all?

Which is to say; my life is very blessed.

For this, basically all I do is aspire to balance order/liberty in my activities.

In modern terms you might say I do what I need to do so that when I’m doing what I want to do, I’m not distracted by a niggling feeling that I should be doing something different than the thing I find myself doing at that moment.

The method might be a form of Vipassana in that critical self examination is needed to see how well balance is maintained.


Heaven and Earth, like good and evil, are complementary opposite concepts, so let us not have any oxymoronic hopes, the wise don't don't eat of the fruit of such trees.

If—then, If these things are ‘complementary opposite concepts’ (née social conditioning), then I am a moron and not real ‘wise’ to ‘dabble’ in such base and misguided pursuits. How about if these things are mere crude words that are archaic, if not to say feudalistic impositions upon our categories of thought? What then?

And likewise, a real Guru, unlike the legions in the market place who pretend to be so, only teach about the necessity of leaving the material realms for the realization of liberation from ignorance and suffering.


Yeah, that’s kind of my beef with ‘real’ Guru’s. Seems to me like if you gotta leave the ‘material’ realm in order to be ‘liberated’ from ignorance and suffering, then one has a perfect built in excuse for acting like a total putz even while claiming adept status and deep understanding of reality.

That’s been my experience and observation at any rate.

Moreover, such a Guru would point out that they themselves are not the real Guru, but that the real Guru is within and the student must realize that Guru in order to realize cosmic evolutionary graduation from the Kingdom of Man.


They can say whatever they want; I’m more interested in what they do. I find it a bit hubristic for some little pinprick of consciousness from amidst the vast ocean of consciousness, to think that one localized expression, an ‘I’ that the same folk claim has no essential existence, thinks that it is a proper candidate for ‘graduation from the Kingdom of Man'.

So fellow travellers all at RI, if the above does not conceptually resonate with you, do not give it a another thought, for in fact it is no more meaningful than for those whom it does resonate, for the truth is not in words...only by realization...


Are you suggesting that resonance has no bearing on or relationship to meaning and/or its productions? Cause that just sounds odd.

fuckin ‘concepts’ (snigger) First they’re bad, then they’re good, fancy that.

It seems like an odd truth to be one with no application or ‘potential to interfere materially for the good’.


That's a Dualist for ya.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Hammer of Los » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:55 am

...

Don't argue.

We are all worthy/unworthy.

Each will find his way.

Sounder wrote:They can say whatever they want; I’m more interested in what they do. I find it a bit hubristic for some little pinprick of consciousness from amidst the vast ocean of consciousness, to think that one localized expression, an ‘I’ that the same folk claim has no essential existence, thinks that it is a proper candidate for ‘graduation from the Kingdom of Man'.


Yes, it does sound hubristic, doesn't it?

I can't deny it.

Paradoxical, even.

Unintelligible?

I kind of saw how it works.

Now, they say seers have a responsibility to speak.

Horrible, isn't it?

But you don't want to get on the wrong side of God Almighty.

All is metaphor.

All is literal.

...
Last edited by Hammer of Los on Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Sounder » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:17 pm

OK, that's easy, right now at least:

We are all worthy/unworthy.

Each will find his way.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby minime » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:18 pm

Hammer of Los » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:55 am wrote:...

Don't argue.

We are all worthy/unworthy.

Each will find his way.

...


To find one's way one must lose it again again - if only by definition.

Have you seen my way?

It was just here somewhere...
has a mind of its own...
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby chump » Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:07 pm

http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.c ... -able.html
I can't vouch for the authenticity of this story, but it was beautiful to watch.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvwHHMEDdT0


The incredible story of how leopard Diabolo became Spirit - Anna Breytenbach, "animal communicator"
What if you could talk to animals and have them talk back to you? Anna Breytenbach has dedicated her life to what she calls interspecies communication. She sends detailed messages to animals through pictures and thoughts. She then receives messages of remarkable clarity back from the animals. In this section, Anna transforms a deadly snarling leopard into a relaxed content cat.The amazing story of how leopard Diabolo became Spirit...
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Ben D » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:45 pm

Sounder » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:07 am wrote:Ben D wrote...
Hi Sounder..for the record, the real purpose of religious teaching, despite it having little traction among most of the human religious institutions of the world, is to prepare and guide willing and worthy souls to realize a state of non-material existence in the here and now, not in any conceptual future.

I find notions of worthiness to be closely connected to unfounded egoistic pretenses.

Fine Sounder, so as not to waste your time, and mine, I will just respond briefly to your first point to exemplify the fact that my present understanding requires certain prerequisite understanding of which you are apparently not in agreement.

So in your understanding, the reality represented by the concept of worthiness is connected to unfounded egoistic pretenses.

Fwiw, I understand that people are not equal in all respects. Therefore I do not think it appropriate for parents to invite reprobates into their homes. I also don't think it's appropriate for a child to be accepted into a University course without having gone to school.

Likewise, it is my understanding that there are higher and lower evolutionary states of cosmic existence than the earth contemporary human one. And that not all cosmic beings are equal in all respects. And that there is an evolutionary 'flow' of awareness through the so called kingdoms of nature, analogous to students passing from lower to higher grades in a school...never the other way around.

I can't imagine a state of Cosmos being where worthiness was not a criteria for the maintenance of sustainable harmony.

Oh, and concerning resonance...think affinity...some readers may have more, some less, with what I was trying to convey, but in any event, the map is not the territory, once an aspirant truly understands that the REAL is forever on the other side of the conceptual idea, the inner awareness awakes to Itself.

This awakening illuminates all the hypocrisies in our character, and under its light, we are forced to act to clean up our act, for there can be no peace until our character is practically purged of all ego pretentiousness. This dark night of the soul period is an extremely difficult period in the life of an aspirant, but ironically, presuming the so called right hand path, the aspirant would have passed the prerequisite test of worthiness to have been awakened as to their real self. An aspect of that worthiness is courage, for the biggest danger in awakening to the inner light, is the potential for suicide when the going gets tough, which clearly would be a major setback for the soul's progress.

Btw, there is another test of worthiness ahead, when passed, that marks the end of the dark night of the soul's earthly sojourn..
There is That which was not born, nor created, nor evolved. If it were not so, there would never be any refuge from being born, or created, or evolving. That is the end of suffering. That is God**.

** or Nirvana, Allah, Brahman, Tao, etc...
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Elvis » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:30 am

Thanks, Chump, I watched the clip and just finished watching the whole film here:

http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documen ... mmunicator

I think this is an important (and beautiful) documentary. Anna, the animal communicator, offers her (rather sensible, I think) objective/scientific explanation of the phenomenon. But the importance of explaining it in scientific terms melts away in the actual event. Watch the park ranger, who "didn't believe it" at first, break down in tears, "overwhelmed," after he realizes what's happening. I think that in our modern societies we ignore the intuitive aspect of consciousness at our peril.

If Anna really is communicating directly with animals -- and I think she is -- it's purely a subjective experience. Is there any other kind of experience? I doubt that the scientific ideal of "objective consciousness," the term Theodore Roszak gives to the detached, analytical mode of thinking and observing that lays claim to truth -- and which he calls a myth -- can ever achieve this subjective communication.

There are many great moments and images in the documentary; I started to jot down some "00:00"s but eh, just watch it!


chump » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:07 am wrote:http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com/2013/12/absolutely-beautiful-woman-who-is-able.html
I can't vouch for the authenticity of this story, but it was beautiful to watch.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvwHHMEDdT0


The incredible story of how leopard Diabolo became Spirit - Anna Breytenbach, "animal communicator"
What if you could talk to animals and have them talk back to you? Anna Breytenbach has dedicated her life to what she calls interspecies communication. She sends detailed messages to animals through pictures and thoughts. She then receives messages of remarkable clarity back from the animals. In this section, Anna transforms a deadly snarling leopard into a relaxed content cat.The amazing story of how leopard Diabolo became Spirit...



PS. After getting up from watching the movie and going into the kitchen, my cat peeked at me from around a dark corner. I took the eye-contact opportunity to mentally ask her, "well, sweetie, is there anything on your mind?" Her eyes glowed back at me from the dark.

"You know damn well what I want. More of that good tuna you gave me earlier." She jumped down and came over to me.

"But you just had some tuna," I say, out loud. I remind you, that stuff is expensive! How about a hug instead?"

I pick her up, she settles into my arms. "Purr."

Okay, enough, now she wants back down, onto the chair. I start to walk away and she swipes me with a claw! Well I never!

"You asked me what I want," she glared back, and walks to the refrigerator.

I relent, and a moment later she's at her bowl, chowing down tuna.

"Oh, and that litterbox ain't gonna clean itself."



(edited typos)
Last edited by Elvis on Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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an outstanding philosophical feline

Postby Allegro » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:47 am

Image
Art will be the last bastion when all else fades away.
~ Timothy White (b 1952), American rock music journalist
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby minime » Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:52 pm

Tuning postures.

Synechdochized as cocking an ear.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby norton ash » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:48 pm

i.e. Radiohead.
Zen horse
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby slimmouse » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:58 pm

Elvis » 15 Dec 2013 07:30 wrote:Thanks, Chump, I watched the clip and just finished watching the whole film here:

http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documen ... mmunicator

I think this is an important (and beautiful) documentary. Anna, the animal communicator, offers her (rather sensible, I think) objective/scientific explanation of the phenomenon. But the importance of explaining it in scientific terms melts away in the actual event. Watch the park ranger, who "didn't believe it" at first, break down in tears, "overwhelmed," after he realizes what's happening. I think that in our modern societies we ignore the intuititive aspect of consciousness at our peril.

If Anna really is communicating directly with animals -- and I think she is -- it's purely a subjective experience. Is there any other kind of experience? I doubt that the scientific ideal of "objective consciousness," the term Theodore Roszak gives to the detached, analytical mode of thinking and observing that lays claim to truth -- and which he calls a myth -- can ever achieve this subjective communication.

There are many great moments and images in the documentary; I started to jot down some "00:00"s but eh, just watch it!


chump » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:07 am wrote:http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com/2013/12/absolutely-beautiful-woman-who-is-able.html
I can't vouch for the authenticity of this story, but it was beautiful to watch.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvwHHMEDdT0


The incredible story of how leopard Diabolo became Spirit - Anna Breytenbach, "animal communicator"
What if you could talk to animals and have them talk back to you? Anna Breytenbach has dedicated her life to what she calls interspecies communication. She sends detailed messages to animals through pictures and thoughts. She then receives messages of remarkable clarity back from the animals. In this section, Anna transforms a deadly snarling leopard into a relaxed content cat.The amazing story of how leopard Diabolo became Spirit...



PS. After getting up from watching the movie and going into the kitchen, my cat peeked at me from around a dark corner. I took the eye-contact opportunity to mentally ask her, "well, sweetie, is there anything on your mind?" Her eyes glowed back at me from the dark.

"You know damn well what I want. More of that good tuna you gave me earlier." She jumped down and came over to me.

"But you just had some tuna," I say, out loud. I remind you, that stuff is expensive! How about a hug instead?"

I pick her up, she settles into my arms. "Purr."

Okay, enough, now she wants back down, onto the chair. I start to walk away and she swipes me with a claw! Well I never!

"You asked me what I want," she glared back, and walks to the refrigerator.

I relent, and a moment later she's at her bowl, chowing down tuna.

"Oh, and that litterbox ain't gonna clean itself."


That video was incredible. Thanks.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby minime » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:14 pm



Radio Synechdoche.

KQCX.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Elvis » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:02 pm

oops, reposted
"Frankly, I don't think it's a good idea but the sums proposed are enormous."
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Sounder » Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:53 am

Thanks chump, -perfect for this thread.


Ben D, I regret that you choose to truncate your response on the issue of worthiness. Yes of course, one must be worthy to participate in activities that attempt to deconstruct personal identity and our more normal modes of understanding.

Thing is Ben, I count among my lifelong friends several ‘seeker’ types. I love these kinds of people, but (and I hate using ‘but’ here, but it’s in the interest of honesty) will admit to an ulterior motive it that I’m interested in getting an empirical sense of the effects or effectiveness of ‘seeker’ type behavior.

My general conclusion is that this style provides a shield and refuge for stubborn ego expressions as or more often than the aid potentially provided that might displace pretenses of ego.

And Ben D, please do not consider that you might ever ‘waste’ any of my time. I enjoy hearing from you and try to consider well the things you have to say.

Ben D wrote...

Fine Sounder, so as not to waste your time, and mine, I will just respond briefly to your first point to exemplify the fact that my present understanding requires certain prerequisite understanding of which you are apparently not in agreement.

So in your understanding, the reality represented by the concept of worthiness is connected to unfounded egoistic pretenses.




Oh, and concerning resonance...think affinity...some readers may have more, some less, with what I was trying to convey, but in any event, the map is not the territory, once an aspirant truly understands that the REAL is forever on the other side of the conceptual idea, the inner awareness awakes to Itself.


I might ‘understand’ a few more things than you think I do. It is also well accepted in science we only model the Real and can never directly look at or reveal the actual Real. But that is not how people act. Still we might learn to compensate for the inherent limitations of conceptual ideas by making the limitations known, and a matter of common knowledge. This might provide aid to the larger society and perhaps then, more folk can realize the benefits of their inner awareness awaking to Itself.


This awakening illuminates all the hypocrisies in our character, and under its light, we are forced to act to clean up our act, for there can be no peace until our character is practically purged of all ego pretentiousness. This dark night of the soul period is an extremely difficult period in the life of an aspirant, but ironically, presuming the so called right hand path, the aspirant would have passed the prerequisite test of worthiness to have been awakened as to their real self. An aspect of that worthiness is courage, for the biggest danger in awakening to the inner light, is the potential for suicide when the going gets tough, which clearly would be a major setback for the soul's progress.


Sounds about right.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Pele'sDaughter » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:20 pm

Also, am I correct that Pele's Daughter :praybow is the only female to comment in this thread?


I don't believe I've even commented; only contributed the interview. I'm pretty quiet and mostly just listen. Regardless of how much I've considered this topic I haven't had any breakthroughs, although my perception has shifted a bit over time. :wink:
Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
---Immanuel Kant
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